Who goes first?

[Kabluey]

We ran into a bit of a rules debate in my group last night. I had a situation where two players were fighting each other (no backstabbing going on, one of them was mind controlled), and they both wanted to wait until the other acted. I recalled reading somewhere that in such a case where opponents are specifically trying to wait until the other goes, you make a DEX roll, with the loser being forced to act first. But I tried to find this rule and couldn't locate it. I checked the FAQ as well as searched through the book, to no avail. Can anyone point me to it, or is this just a sign of the rapid onset of senility?

 

Thanks.

[Edsel]

Re: Who goes first?

 

On page 360 of 5ER read the first sentence under the heading Who Goes First? This pretty much says that in situations like this things are resolved by a DEX roll.

 

EDIT: I went ahead and re-read that whole section as well as the Holding Actions and Aborting sections. So I'll add the following.

Also remember that a character who is eligible to Abort to a purely defensive maneuver is almost always allowed to. For instance two characters are holding their actions and both decide to shoot at each other, the character who loses the DEX roll is generally able to switch is action to a Dodge or other purely defensive action if he wishes to.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Who goes first?

 

Well, if each one is determined to wait until the other acts, I suppose they could just stand there and stare at each other until some other force intervenes. Maybe they each make a CON roll for every hour after, say, the first 16 to avoid nodding off and giving the other the opportunity to seize the initiative.

[Edsel]

Re: Who goes first?

 

Technically they would just stand there forever or until one of them gave up and acted first. They would hold a full action for PHA after PHA, Turn after Turn as the rest of the world went on. A character with Sleight of Hand or Acting might be able to bluff the other one into showing their hand.

 

For a truly long-term stand off I'd probably agree with Hugh. Eventually fatigue of just standing there staring each other down is going to cause one of them to flinch.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Who goes first?

 

Sounds like your basic old west showdown.

Con rolls would, IMO, only come into play after a LONG time, such as mentioned above. In the short term, I'd probably do it as opposed EGo roll to see who breaks first. PRE could and should probably come into play somewhere in the mix, but as it was a facedown 'tween two PC's, it might not apply dramatically.

Once somewone says "when", then it comes down to the usual opposed DEX rolls, Fast Draw, and the like.

 

Speaking of drama... to fit the source material, I'd likely give a slight advantage to the non-mind controlled Character, unless the circumstances were such that the controlled one isn't fighting the control for whatever reason. Seems like these cases in fictional media usualy have the controlled character showing a slight hesitation due to the inner conflict.

[Kabluey]

Re: Who goes first?

 

On page 360 of 5ER read the first sentence under the heading Who Goes First? This pretty much says that in situations like this things are resolved by a DEX roll.

 

That section actually talks about situations where two characters want to act at the same time. I'm actually referring to a situation where both characters want to wait for the other to act. Somewhat different...

 

For instance two characters are holding their actions and both decide to shoot at each other' date=' the character who loses the DEX roll is generally able to switch is action to a Dodge or other purely defensive action if he wishes to.[/quote']

 

This is not true. On p. 360, the first sentence at the top of the second column specifically says that the loser of the DEX roll cannot then chose to Abort. He's already committed to the action to shoot. He can't then just decide to Abort because he lost the roll.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Who goes first?

 

Unless the Mind Control command provides pretty clear latitude for infinite delay, I'd require the MC'd character to make a move. He was likely commanded to do something, not just stand there and wait for someone else to do something.

 

I agree with giving the advantage to the guy who's not MC'd due to the inner conflict issue.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Who goes first?

 

Unless the Mind Control command provides pretty clear latitude for infinite delay, I'd require the MC'd character to make a move. He was likely commanded to do something, not just stand there and wait for someone else to do something.

 

I agree with giving the advantage to the guy who's not MC'd due to the inner conflict issue.

 

Oooh... Good point that. I concur.

[Edsel]

Re: Who goes first?

 

This is not true. On p. 360' date=' the first sentence at the top of the second column specifically says that the loser of the DEX roll cannot then chose to Abort. He's already committed to the action to shoot. He can't then just decide to Abort because he lost the roll.[/quote']Oops! Read right past this. It must have leaked out the other side of my head.

[Shaft]

Re: Who goes first?

 

Unless the Mind Control command provides pretty clear latitude for infinite delay, I'd require the MC'd character to make a move. He was likely commanded to do something, not just stand there and wait for someone else to do something.

 

I agree with giving the advantage to the guy who's not MC'd due to the inner conflict issue.

 

I was going to suggest forcing the players (not characters) to have a Zoolander style walk-off between themselves, but this is a much more playable idea.

[pinecone]

Re: Who goes first?

 

Well' date=' if each one is determined to wait until the other acts, I suppose they could just stand there and stare at each other until some other force intervenes. Maybe they each make a CON roll for every hour after, say, the first 16 to avoid nodding off and giving the other the opportunity to seize the initiative.[/quote']

 

My take as well..."Go ahead and wait as long as you wish" you just lose phases as new phases arrive....

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Who goes first?

 

I'm with the let them wait. I also would be inclined to point out that you could use a PRE roll to 'force' someone to act - that is like the gunfight analogy where each wants the other to draw first to give them the figleaf of self defence.

 

Thus the staredown until the least brave twitches and goes for the gun...

 

 

Doc

[archermoo]

Re: Who goes first?

 

Yup. I'm unaware of anything in the rules that would force you to act before you want to, short of Mind Control or the like. And being that Mind Control was in use on one of them, depending on how the command was worded the controlled player may not have any choice about the situation.

[Kabluey]

Re: Who goes first?

 

Thanks for everyone's input. I would've been willing to bet money that I'd seen the rule someplace, but I guess that was just the alcohol.

 

To respond generally to a few of the above comments, the situation of the Mind Control was such that that player would not have been compelled to attack. He wasn't actually trying to hurt anyone. Quite the opposite, the mind control just made him believe the room they were in was safe. It was actually the uncontrolled player who was attacking, to "knock some sense into him", as he put it.

 

I actually would have been more than happy to just let phases tick by. I didn't have any compelling interest in forcing action or anything. It's just that I "recalled" this rule, which is why I asked. Thanks again.

[zornwil]

Re: Who goes first?

 

Well' date=' if each one is determined to wait until the other acts, I suppose they could just stand there and stare at each other until some other force intervenes. Maybe they each make a CON roll for every hour after, say, the first 16 to avoid nodding off and giving the other the opportunity to seize the initiative.[/quote']

That's how I'd go. Players have a responsibility to play. They won't have much fun for long if they insist on "I hold for him to act" and neither wants to act. Someone will do something - or (as would happen in my games) they'll end up talking out the issues (even with Mind Control, via Breakouts).