New Limitations to Old Powers in New Books

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

The reason it was omitted from FREd are varied; ranging from "forgotten" to "did not think of it time." Your whole argument is based on the idea that the rules in FREd should be static, but they are not. The HERO System rules are evolving with each new book. There are new Martial Arts maneuves in UMA. There are new abilities for vehicles in TUV. There are official rules for different sized characters in the Beastiary. The HERO System is a constantly evolving system.

 

I always find it odd that Hero posters will make rants about how Steve never changes his mind about anything, but then turn around and make rants because he did change his mind about something. If you like the new rules then use them. If you do not lke the new rules then do not use them. Either way from the point of USPD onward all "official" characters will be published with the new rules; and will continue to be published with new rules as those rules evolve. The HERO System is not static.

Do the new rules expand on and/or restrict character construction from FRED? Do the new rules expand on and/or restrict vehicle construction for FRED? Do the new rules in the Bestiary expand on and/or restrict beastie construction from FRED?

 

This is my point. The adders and advantages and limitations that might be presented in new materials should not attempt to invalidate the obvious correct method to construct a character in FRED. The new stuff should add on but not take away. Otherwise, there is no consistent core set of rules that can be easily understood as such by players from player to player and play group to play group - and that is a weakness too many game systems fall prey to.

 

To my mind, there has to a horribly broken problem in FRED that needs to be addressed before this sort of action is taken.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X

To my mind, there has to a horribly broken problem in FRED that needs to be addressed before this sort of action is taken.

Well perhaps Steve felt that it was a "horribly broken problem" (like so many feel about Damage Shield) and thus fixed it. I am certainly not going to feed your tangent. If you do not like it then do not use it. But when I am discussing rules in this forum I will only discuss official rules, no matter which book, errata, or FAQ they are presented in.

 

As of USPD the new rules additions are official, and I will use them as such until they become invalidated in either the FAQ or future HERO books. To me this is not something to get up on a soap box about. There are far too many real problems with the system we could be working on.

[tesuji]

And he said...

 

Originally posted by Monolith

And when I see a rule actually being used in print I definately give it value over what is not.

 

And he continued...

 

Originally posted by Monolith

But when I am discussing rules in this forum I will only discuss official rules, no matter which book, errata, or FAQ they are presented in.

yet overhere he says... in response to an in print example...

 

Originally posted by Monolith

I believe that Steve has since offically ruled that the power would require the Affects Advantage when this discussion came up in regard to Bodyjacker. The errata written for the Bestiary predates the errata information for Bodyjacker. Steve has just never gotten around to changing it.

 

So, official rules are somewhat more nebulously defined?

[Talon]

Even with the vastly improved quality of character writeups in 5th edition books, I hesitate to use those writeups as primary sources for rules interpretations.

 

I think that if Steve/DOJ wanted to cynically require people to purchase more books just to get all the rules, they would have put a lot more rules stuff into those books. I think what we see is a refining of the system over time, as the implications of various rules surface. I do agree, however, that such implications and refinings should be referenced in the FAQ, so that people with only FREd can find out what the current state of the rules is.

 

If the FAQ says "Change Environment works this way", that's an official change. If CKC or USPD says "Change Environment works this way," that's an optional rule, albeit one from an official source. I certainly wouldn't assume that any such rule was being used if I joined a campaign.

[Primal]

Originally posted by Monolith

There are far too many real problems with the system we could be working on.

 

Good to know this now before I buy any more of the books I had been interested in! Actually, it would be best to hear from Steve if this is his true policy.

 

A core rule book that has all the core rules. An errata for printing errors & accidental omissions.

 

With the other things vying for my time and money, rules changes outside of those two sources (not including supplemental rules that _expand_ existing rules)--- I just don't want to deal with a game that has that policy.

 

Am I unworthy for not wanting to buy every thing put forth for the Hero system? ... eh ... if that is what the system is trying to require, then the system is not worthy (IMO).

[Monolith]

Originally posted by tesuji

So, official rules are somewhat more nebulously defined?

You, in your desire to cause trouble in most of the threads you are in, always overlook the obvious. You, apparently, think that Steve Long is a machine and that he can instantly remember all 100 pages of the rules FAQ and errata which has been updated or expanded over the last 18 months. I, on the other hand, understand that Steve has changed several rules over the last 18 months and that he cannot always remember to make the six updates in the FAQ.

 

To use your example which you are attempting to throw back in my face, DOJ's original policy was that Mind Control could be used without the Affects Real World advantage if the character was using it while Desolid (based upon certain sfx); and thus you see the write-up for the Ghost in the Beastiary as having that power. In the year that has since gone by DOJ changed that policy and ruled that you do need to put the Affects Real World Advantage of the Mind Control (that change was brought about when playtesters like my thought it was inbalancing). So what was legal a year ago is not legal today. The fact that over the last year Steve has forgotten to update the Beastiary errata (but did update the problem in the Millennium City errata) does not change the fact that the new rule is not valid.

 

I do not expect Steve Long to be perfect. I understand that there are several hundreds of thousands of words written and that no one person can easily remember all of them. You, because of your dislike for the system, get a great deal of pleasure finding those mistakes and throwing them into everyone's face.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Primal

Am I unworthy for not wanting to buy every thing put forth for the Hero system? ... eh ... if that is what the system is trying to require, then the system is not worthy (IMO).

Perhaps you need to learn a little more about the system before you start painting it with such broad strokes. 13 books have been published and this is the first instance that this has ever come up; and even then it is probably just an oversight that it has not been updated to the rules FAQ (I do take into account that Steve has spent the last 4 months intensely working on Fantasy Hero so that it would be ready in time for Gen Con).

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Even with the vastly improved quality of character writeups in 5th edition books, I hesitate to use those writeups as primary sources for rules interpretations.

 

I think that if Steve/DOJ wanted to cynically require people to purchase more books just to get all the rules, they would have put a lot more rules stuff into those books. I think what we see is a refining of the system over time, as the implications of various rules surface. I do agree, however, that such implications and refinings should be referenced in the FAQ, so that people with only FREd can find out what the current state of the rules is.

 

If the FAQ says "Change Environment works this way", that's an official change. If CKC or USPD says "Change Environment works this way," that's an optional rule, albeit one from an official source. I certainly wouldn't assume that any such rule was being used if I joined a campaign.

I'm all for that. If there are genuine instances of "whoops!", those should be available on a downloadable and constantly updated FAQ.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Klytus

I'm all for that. If there are genuine instances of "whoops!", those should be available on a downloadable and constantly updated FAQ.

 

Which, for the most part, is the case.

[lemming]

Originally posted by J4y

I see your point, but whats 5 points here or there anyway? Just look at your GM, shrug at each other, and bump your character up by 5 points. Or, 1 if it's in a multiform. Or, 0 if it's in a multiform's multipower or....

Actually my only beef with this is that it's going to overflow an MP somewhere and make you do more math.

[Vondy]

I have no issues with cool new options in new books that expand already existing powers, such as new adders that have been thought up since Fred was completed and first shipped. That will happen in any system from time to time.

 

What I have an issue with is cool new options that restrict already existing powers as they are written. With that said, however, it only seems to have happened once or twice in the last few years [a pretty good record if you ask me] and could have easily been an oversight, or a "repair" to the system that needs to go into the FAQ.

 

I think we should simply ask Steve to look at the thread and answer the question -- what was intended and why -- instead of leaping to conclusions we don't have enough information to support in the first place.

[Killer Shrike]

Most importantly, the HERO System is the "toolbox" system. The basic idea is treat it like a buffet line. Take what you want, leave the rest behind the sneeze shield for somebody else.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by D-Man

I have no issues with cool new options in new books that expand already existing powers, such as new adders that have been thought up since Fred was completed and first shipped. That will happen in any system from time to time.

 

What I have an issue with is cool new options that restrict already existing powers as they are written. With that said, however, it only seems to have happened once or twice in the last few years [a pretty good record if you ask me] and could have easily been an oversight, or a "repair" to the system that needs to go into the FAQ.

 

I think we should simply ask Steve to look at the thread and answer the question -- what was intended and why -- instead of leaping to conclusions we don't have enough information to support in the first place.

I'm not seeing a train wreck here. I just want to avoid one. I started this thread because I didn't want runaway rules changes. Why wait for four or forty more books to come out before I bring this up?

 

It's a simple problem. Follow this: I run a game at a store. I have a new guy come up and ask if he can play. I am enforcing the new rules in the USPD and mention it, once. He builds his character without owning the USPD and assumes Hero Designer will take care of him there. He builds his character, a water elemental with tk that does not affect porous and a change environment that does not have the adder. He shows up at the game to be told his character is illegal. Now, some groups can handle that gracefully but some can't - and a lot of the ones that can't handle it gracefully play in game stores (in my experience). Of course, that's an great place to turn new people on to or off of a game. So, this policy seems problematic to me.

 

Yeah, it would be nice to hear a response from Steve.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

Perhaps you need to learn a little more about the system before you start painting it with such broad strokes. 13 books have been published and this is the first instance that this has ever come up; and even then it is probably just an oversight that it has not been updated to the rules FAQ (I do take into account that Steve has spent the last 4 months intensely working on Fantasy Hero so that it would be ready in time for Gen Con).

I understand he's busy but I also understand that affects porous is not a new idea. Incidentally, I thought it was silly the first time I saw it.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

You, in your desire to cause trouble in most of the threads you are in, always overlook the obvious. You, apparently, think that Steve Long is a machine and that he can instantly remember all 100 pages of the rules FAQ and errata which has been updated or expanded over the last 18 months. I, on the other hand, understand that Steve has changed several rules over the last 18 months and that he cannot always remember to make the six updates in the FAQ.

 

To use your example which you are attempting to throw back in my face, DOJ's original policy was that Mind Control could be used without the Affects Real World advantage if the character was using it while Desolid (based upon certain sfx); and thus you see the write-up for the Ghost in the Beastiary as having that power. In the year that has since gone by DOJ changed that policy and ruled that you do need to put the Affects Real World Advantage of the Mind Control (that change was brought about when playtesters like my thought it was inbalancing). So what was legal a year ago is not legal today. The fact that over the last year Steve has forgotten to update the Beastiary errata (but did update the problem in the Millennium City errata) does not change the fact that the new rule is not valid.

 

I do not expect Steve Long to be perfect. I understand that there are several hundreds of thousands of words written and that no one person can easily remember all of them. You, because of your dislike for the system, get a great deal of pleasure finding those mistakes and throwing them into everyone's face.

He had to know he was placing a new restriction on a power from FRED.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent X

I'm not seeing a train wreck here. I just want to avoid one. I started this thread because I didn't want runaway rules changes. Why wait for four or forty more books to come out before I bring this up?

 

It's a simple problem. Follow this: I run a game at a store. I have a new guy come up and ask if he can play. I am enforcing the new rules in the USPD and mention it, once. He builds his character without owning the USPD and assumes Hero Designer will take care of him there. He builds his character, a water elemental with tk that does not affect porous and a change environment that does not have the adder. He shows up at the game to be told his character is illegal. Now, some groups can handle that gracefully but some can't - and a lot of the ones that can't handle it gracefully play in game stores (in my experience). Of course, that's an great place to turn new people on to or off of a game. So, this policy seems problematic to me.

 

Yeah, it would be nice to hear a response from Steve.

 

I agree with your fundamental precept, which is why I made a distinction between new options that expand powers as written, and new options that restrict them as written. I think the first can be, if handled properly, good for the system, while the second is detrimental (and fits into your example as given).

 

I view the "affects pourous" adder, as explained in this thread [i don't have USPD], as falling into the second category. If its a fix for an oversight in the sacred text that is Fred I have no issues with it insofar as it gets FAQ'd. If its something else I would be more inclined to yell foul and start a picket line in front of steves apartment

 

Why don't we mail him and see what he says?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Agent X

He had to know he was placing a new restriction on a power from FRED.

Or perhaps, in his mind, the restriction was always there and he only belatedly realized that it had not been directly expressed. I know Ive done that before; forgotten to mention bits that seem totally obvious to me.

 

Whichever, I really think that this is all much to do about nothing. Eventually somebody at DOJ will take a break from thier breakneck schedule and get around to sticking it into the FAQ.

[Kristopher]

It seems that most of the people who have commented in this thread have agreed that expansions on the rules and powers are good, but that rules changes that restrict and/or increase the cost of a power that are printed in supplements are detrimental to the HERO system.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Whichever, I really think that this is all much to do about nothing. Eventually somebody at DOJ will take a break from thier breakneck schedule and get around to sticking it into the FAQ.

I agree. Steve has just been too busy to worry about the small stuff. Eventually the only two new adders from USPD (both for Change Enviroment) which are not in the FAQ will be included. It is just an oversight due to time constraints.

 

Edited to add: Actually only the Multiple Combat Effect Adder for Change Enviroment is new. The Varying Combat Effect Adder was already in the Rules FAQ.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Kristopher

It seems that most of the people who have commented in this thread have agreed that expansions on the rules and powers are good, but that rules changes that restrict and/or increase the cost of a power that are printed in supplements are detrimental to the HERO system.

I think this just has to do with the fact that people do not like change. The odd thing is that the HERO System has changed a great deal over the last 22 years and 99.9% of those changes (both positive and negative to powers) have been good for the game. I do not think people should get too hung-up on changes. They are just part of the evolution of the game. People forget things, and change their minds, even when a manuscript has been sitting around for 2 years waiting to be published.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith

I think this just has to do with the fact that people do not like change. The odd thing is that the HERO System has changed a great deal over the last 22 years and 99.9% of those changes (both positive and negative to powers) have been good for the game. I do not think people should get too hung-up on changes. They are just part of the evolution of the game. People forget things, and change their minds, even when a manuscript has been sitting around for 2 years waiting to be published.

Wasnt it longer than two years that it sat idle? I remember Steve put up a summary of significant changes in his Longshot article for Haymaker many years ago, where in Megascale was mentioned, along with the increased cost for Aid and some other goodness.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

I think this just has to do with the fact that people do not like change. The odd thing is that the HERO System has changed a great deal over the last 22 years and 99.9% of those changes (both positive and negative to powers) have been good for the game. I do not think people should get too hung-up on changes. They are just part of the evolution of the game. People forget things, and change their minds, even when a manuscript has been sitting around for 2 years waiting to be published.

I don't dislike change. I was glad to see the affects porous adder wasn't included in FRED.

 

I dislike changes that invalidate a character construction that is legal insofar as FRED is concerned. If a new guy joins a group and buys FRED and builds a character that conforms to what FRED says, not what the game designers forgot to or chose not to include, the new guy shouldn't go through the added stress of finding out that he needed to check the rules FAQ or game supplements. I always thought FAQs were for frequently asked questions about how to interpret complicated areas of a power or powers, etc. I thought the FAQ was meant to clear up confusion, not change the rules of the official rulebook. The way I read Change Environment in FRED, I never would have gone to the FAQ to find out that the power had been restricted beyond its initial description. Should there be a disclaimer on FRED that reads, "Oh, by the way, you need to check the FAQ to see if character construction rules have been changed?"

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Wasnt it longer than two years that it sat idle?

You could be right about that. I have only been a part of the online community (the message boards and mailing list) for around 10 months. Most of my knowledge about that comes from hearsay. My memory seems to stretch back to 1999 when I first heard a 5th Edition was going to be done. It might have been before that though.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X

"Oh, by the way, you need to check the FAQ to see if character construction rules have been changed?"

Not to continue the debate, but if the FAQ has no relevance than why have it at all? I am sure that Steve could save several hours a week if he just stopped answering people's questions and told them to just use whatever interpretation of FREd they want.

 

The FAQ is there to correct and make clear the rules in FREd. Sometimes those rules corrections are positive and sometimes those rules changes are negative. Eventually DOJ will get around to publishing an updated version of FREd. Until that time we must use FREd, the FAQ, and the Errata to get the most concise rules version possible.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith

You could be right about that. I have only been a part of the online community (the message boards and mailing list) for around 10 months. Most of my knowledge about that comes from hearsay. My memory seems to stretch back to 1999 when I first heard a 5th Edition was going to be done. It might have been before that though.

Im positive it was before 99; I was doing Haymaker while I was still in the Marines, and my EAS was in 98. So it would have been at least in 98 and probably 97. Maybe Bob G., Surbrook, or of course Dave M. might remember better; I know Bob G. was on Haymaker when I started; I cant recall if Surbrook was or if he came later with the inestimable Surbrook's Stuff.