New Limitations to Old Powers in New Books

[Agent X]

I was confused when Monolith pointed out to me on a sample construction that I hadn't bought an adder for my change environment. No mention was made of the need for an adder to have more than one effect for change environment in FRED. After re-reading the Change Environment Rules I was not under the impression that it was called for. I finally bought USPD and a friend who I had discussed this with found the adder... in the margins! He found two more adders. All these adders interpreted powers in FRED to be more limiting than a reading of the powers in FRED led either of us to believe.

 

I cry foul!

 

If you want to add new rules to the game, it's one thing to add adders, limitations, and advantages that expand on the basic concept of a power that is presented in the main rulebook. When you take a left turn and basically provide an "Oh, by the way, that power isn't as good as you thought it was and you need to spend more points" modification that's just annoying. Not everyone who plays is going to pick up every supplement and changing the basic rules of the game in a supplement just seems vey wrong to me.

 

Now, if those powers were meant to be limited in the ways that the adders from USPD indicated, that should have been clearly stated in FRED. As it is, our group is simply going to disregard these modifications to the rulebook given that it can only provide confusion for those who don't read the boards or buy every supplement Hero puts out.

 

I really think this was bad form.

[tesuji]

perhaps if you posted a specific example or two, perhaps using your case or an example that specifically uses and explains what was in the margins of USPD or such, this would be clearer or more readily disucssed.

[Vondy]

Can you give the specific construct and adder in question?

[Blue Angel]

I think he is refering to USPD page 251.

 

There is a +5 adder to include two affects simultaneously or a +10 adder to be able to switch to any combination of affects within the special effect.

 

The +10 adder is a new expansion but the +5 adder reduces the affectiveness for those who had already combined affects in a CE.

[Vondy]

Based on that I would have to agree.

 

New Adders that reduce the effectiveness of a power as written would (and do) chap my hide. "Oh, by the way..."

 

New Adders that expand a powers effectiveness are another matter altogether.

[Agent X]

Yep, page 251 is what I am referring to but I believe there are a couple more "transgressions" in the USPD. I will have to look up the page numbers. I can't understand why DOJ would go down this road.

[Lord Liaden]

I sympathize with your position, Agent X. I must admit that I was a little perturbed to see in the FAQ that Steve states you need the +10 Adder from Ultimate Mentalist, "Affects Porous", for Telekinesis to affect water or other liquids, when not only is that adder not in the description of Telekinesis, but one of the sample powers for TK in the sidebar on FREd p. 147 is Water Manipulation, built without that Adder. And it's not changed in the Errata.

 

I don't have a problem with clearly labelled optional rules, or even changes to the rules in later books that supercede the earlier ones; but this was an Adder from an earlier book which Steve Long wrote himself, and if he had wanted it to be the default rule for Telekinesis it was a definite oversight to not have included it in the main rulebook.

 

(Perhaps I'll bring that to his attention when he returns from Origins. After winning that award he's probably too happy anyway.)

[Monolith]

You were always supposed to only be able to buy one Combat Effect per Change Enviroment. That is the reason that the villain Stormfront has an Elemental with multiple Change Enviroment powers (each one having a different Combat Effect - IIRC one is for Perception, one is for DEX rolls, and a third is for Temperature). I think it was the rethinking of Stormfront which eventually led Steve to create the Multiple Combat Effects Adder in the first place.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X

Yep, page 251 is what I am referring to but I believe there are a couple more "transgressions" in the USPD. I will have to look up the page numbers. I can't understand why DOJ would go down this road.

They are going "down this road" because after 18 months they realized they made some mistakes and left out some important information for certain powers. I have no problem with this. The rules FAQ is full of hundreds of new additions and clarifications. Why should published books be any different?

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Monolith

They are going "down this road" because after 18 months they realized they made some mistakes and left out some important information for certain powers. I have no problem with this. The rules FAQ is full of hundreds of new additions and clarifications. Why should published books be any different?

 

I think the problem is that it makes it appear that if you want the "right" rules you need to go out and buy more than just the 5th Ed rulesbook - which sort of violates the idea behind hero. The extra books were supposed to be "nice but not necessary." Now it appears that you need to buy them anyway for rules errata - which looks a lot like a cynical trick to sell more books.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Klytus

I think the problem is that it makes it appear that if you want the "right" rules you need to go out and buy more than just the 5th Ed rulesbook - which sort of violates the idea behind hero. The extra books were supposed to be "nice but not necessary." Now it appears that you need to buy them anyway for rules errata - which looks a lot like a cynical trick to sell more books.

I certainly do not think that adding 3-4 new Adders in a book is a "cynical trick" to do anything. The point is to get the new rules out to people. FREd is not perfect. It was put together in a hurry and that fact shows in some places. Heck, it is missing an entire chapter which Steve put on the webpage as a pdf.

 

The fact of the matter is that the game will evolve over time. Some of that evolution takes place in the Ultimate books, for example. I do not hear anyone complaining that a villain who has a Passing Strike maneuver, but because that maneuver is not in FREd, should not be allowed. All the additional books add some new rules; and it is the message boards place to point that out to people who have not gotten around to buying the new books.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

I certainly do not think that adding 3-4 new Adders in a book is a "cynical trick" to do anything. The point is to get the new rules out to people. FREd is not perfect. It was put together in a hurry and that fact shows in some places. Heck, it is missing an entire chapter which Steve put on the webpage as a pdf.

 

The fact of the matter is that the game will evolve over time. Some of that evolution takes place in the Ultimate books, for example. I do not hear anyone complaining that a villain who has a Passing Strike maneuver, but because that maneuver is not in FREd, should not be allowed. All the additional books add some new rules; and it is the message boards place to point that out to people who have not gotten around to buying the new books.

I wouldn't call it a cynical trick. I wouldn't even call it wrong-headed in every case but adders for affects porous for telekinesis and multiple combat effects on change environment are not of earth-shattering importance to "correct" game balance. I am still wondering what the adder on change environment is supposed to accomplish considering that a 5 point adder isn't going to matter a hill of beans for balancing min/maxer purposes and the affects porous adder to telekinesis is just annoying. How many teeks in comics can't affect porous anyway? It seems needlessly complicated.

 

These changes aren't needed. The game is not demonstrably out of balance without these new restrictions, and a requirement to pay for an adder on something you didn't have to pay for originally is a restriction. If some catastrophe was averted because a restriction on a power was accidentally ommited, well that would be one thing, but this is patently unnecessary.

 

Let's weigh the cost and benefits:

Benefit: dubious benefit if any that I can see (I actually think the likely proposed benefit has no merit and is more of a harm)

Cost: Confusion between players who didn't notice the rules change (in the margin of an ancillary book) and confusion caused because some didn't pick up the book with the rules change to begin with - not only a problem between members of a play group but a problem for strangers forming a pick-up game at a store or convention.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

You were always supposed to only be able to buy one Combat Effect per Change Enviroment. That is the reason that the villain Stormfront has an Elemental with multiple Change Enviroment powers (each one having a different Combat Effect - IIRC one is for Perception, one is for DEX rolls, and a third is for Temperature). I think it was the rethinking of Stormfront which eventually led Steve to create the Multiple Combat Effects Adder in the first place.

Where was it in FRED? I've done played the game. I've had my "mouth set" for how Change Environment works and the funny thing is I haven't seen anything horrible happen out of not paying for an adder that wasn't mentioned in FRED.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X

Where was it in FRED? I've done played the game. I've had my "mouth set" for how Change Environment works and the funny thing is I haven't seen anything horrible happen out of not paying for an adder that wasn't mentioned in FRED.

And you know what? Nothing horrible will happen. You now just happen to be playing by a house rule rather than an "official" rule. Once again though, this rule was implied by the character design of Stormfront. Either way though, when I am discussing rules on the message boards I prefer to use the actual rules over house rules. We all have so many house rules that none of us would make sense if we tried to answer each question with our own house rule variant.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Monolith

And you know what? Nothing horrible will happen. You now just happen to be playing by a house rule rather than an "official" rule. Once again though, this rule was implied by the character design of Stormfront. Either way though, when I am discussing rules on the message boards I prefer to use the actual rules over house rules. We all have so many house rules that none of us would make sense if we tried to answer each question with our own house rule variant.

 

"I'm sorry, but that character isn't written up correctly. You obviously didn't read the sidebar in Obscure Supplement #1092, in which..."

 

Unless they're published in the FAQ, I don't consider _changes_ to the rules are printed in FRED to be official. Additions to the rules, fine. More rules, fine. But _changes_ to the base rules? No way.

 

As for Stormfront...so what? I've never heard of Stormfront, I have no idea where Stormfront is in print, and IMO it's rather silly to go back and claim that a rule was implied by some character's write-up.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Kristopher

As for Stormfront...so what? I've never heard of Stormfront, I have no idea where Stormfront is in print, and IMO it's rather silly to go back and claim that a rule was implied by some character's write-up.

I realize you are new to the boards, but most of the things the vast majority of HERO System players learned about the game came from character examples, not book examples. The fact that you did not buy CKC does not mean that the majority of HERO System gamers did not as well. And when I see a rule actually being used in print I definately give it value over what is not.

 

And the rules FAQ does state that a GM should generally not allow more than one Combat Effect per Change Enviroment, but that the GM can allow it if they wish; and we all know the GM can allow anything if he wishes.

[Killer Shrike]

I personally liked the further clarification in the Until DB. For sticklers, I think they should also be added to the FAQ as options as I agree it is unfair to 'expect' players to purchase all products (although I would highly recommend the Until DB, I realize many gamers are on a budget -- all of my players for example ) and rules expansions/clarifications like that should be added to the FAQ so that they are more centrally accessible.

 

One of the big selling points of the HERO System is that you really only need 1 book (FREd) to run it.

 

[lemming]

Originally posted by Monolith

And you know what? Nothing horrible will happen. You now just happen to be playing by a house rule rather than an "official" rule. Once again though, this rule was implied by the character design of Stormfront.

It should be pointed out that Stormfront is from CKC, not the 5th edition rulebook. Which means that's an another dubious argument.

I'm of the view that adding restrictions to powers that weren't broken, gets messy. It also makes it more annoying for those of us using Hero Designer. Which doesn't have either adder...

 

And with the arguing "house" vs. "official", there's plenty of wiggle room all over the place. I don't like having to have all the books memorized just to be able to say I know X rule is now X-.001

 

edit: Just read the last few posts; If it's in the FAQ, I'll concede it's "official", but I wouldn't penalize a player for it.

[bryanb]

Extra Adders

 

Maybe HERO could post a free download listing all the additional adders and their location?

 

Having said that is this not what you get when you buy TSR/WoTC products. I can only speak for 2nd Ed but all the character handbooks added extra rules for characters - can't DOJ do the same?

 

Daz

[J4y]

I think the problem is that it makes it appear that if you want the "right" rules you need to go out and buy more than just the 5th Ed rulesbook - which sort of violates the idea behind hero.

 

I see your point, but whats 5 points here or there anyway? Just look at your GM, shrug at each other, and bump your character up by 5 points. Or, 1 if it's in a multiform. Or, 0 if it's in a multiform's multipower or....

[Crimson Arrow]

I have to say that just because so-and-so character has a power constructed in a certain way does not mean that that is correct, or that it is the ONLY way to do it. Perhaps Stormfront's powers are designed that way because one power affects PER rolls, while another affects DEX rolls and if they were all in one slot, he'd have to use all of the effects at the same time.

 

Also (while I haven't the book in front of me), is it not a question of effect? Presumably the PER roll reductions represents fog, while the DEX roll one is high winds, which is inconsistent with fog.

 

I can't see what the problem is with paying for the extra combat effects. If people were saying, "I get the first point of PER reduction free and the first point of -1 to Dex rolls free, and the first etc.", I can see the mischief. However, if you say "you only get the cheapest effect free" (or "you can only choose one free point of effect"), then what does it matter if you have more than one effect from the same CE power when you are paying points to have those extra effects anyway?

 

I don't have a huge problem with later supplements adding new rules (although it can be a pain), I just don't see the point of this one.

[Primal]

Re: Extra Adders

 

Originally posted by bryanb

Having said that is this not what you get when you buy TSR/WoTC products. I can only speak for 2nd Ed but all the character handbooks added extra rules for characters - can't DOJ do the same?

 

Daz

Here, here! I think all of us use Hero because we are completely happy with the way D&D does things..

 

1 Core book +1 errata.

 

I too fall into the crowd that holds that rules _changes_ in supplements (not additions) blows big chunks and causes me serious concern about Hero as a point of principle..

 

I like Hero because I like the principles behind it (or at least what I perceive as the principles)...

 

If I don't have those principles to cling to, why not just shrug my shoulders and join the masses playing D&D? I'm 100% positive that with a good GM, I can have fun with D&D..

 

bleh.. melodrama..

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

And you know what? Nothing horrible will happen. You now just happen to be playing by a house rule rather than an "official" rule. Once again though, this rule was implied by the character design of Stormfront. Either way though, when I am discussing rules on the message boards I prefer to use the actual rules over house rules. We all have so many house rules that none of us would make sense if we tried to answer each question with our own house rule variant.

Why am I playing with a house rule when I am playing with the rules as stated in FRED? In another post, you used the term "always" implying that the +5 adder is the way that it "should" have been all along and you point out Stormfront's construction - and it isn't even mentioned in the FAQ (according to soe posters). Seems to me, CKC came after FRED. For that matter, why use the +10 affects porous adder from Ultimate Mentalist when it isn't in FRED but in an FAQ that many gamers won't even look at? What really chaps my hide about that one is that there was no good reason to omit it from FRED and then add it in the FAQ.

 

This "actual rules" point actually supports my position IMO. By adding restrictions to powers in new books (in margins) that won't be universally purchased or to the FAQ, it only creates confusion over what are the actual rules. Imagine the meeting of several players in a pick-up game at a store and the tangled conversation that could ensue. It is one thing to use the FAQ or a "utility" book to solve rules interpretation problems. It is another thing to add restrictions to powers that nobody (at least me) didn't see coming and wasn't asking about. Was the USPD advertised as a rules supplement? I thought it was simply advertised as a book that could give you ideas and short cuts.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

I realize you are new to the boards, but most of the things the vast majority of HERO System players learned about the game came from character examples, not book examples. The fact that you did not buy CKC does not mean that the majority of HERO System gamers did not as well. And when I see a rule actually being used in print I definately give it value over what is not.

 

And the rules FAQ does state that a GM should generally not allow more than one Combat Effect per Change Enviroment, but that the GM can allow it if they wish; and we all know the GM can allow anything if he wishes.

If we used character examples in 4th edition then we could have justified almost anything.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X

What really chaps my hide about that one is that there was no good reason to omit it from FRED and then add it in the FAQ.

The reason it was omitted from FREd are varied; ranging from "forgotten" to "did not think of it time." Your whole argument is based on the idea that the rules in FREd should be static, but they are not. The HERO System rules are evolving with each new book. There are new Martial Arts maneuves in UMA. There are new abilities for vehicles in TUV. There are official rules for different sized characters in the Beastiary. The HERO System is a constantly evolving system.

 

I always find it odd that Hero posters will make rants about how Steve never changes his mind about anything, but then turn around and make rants because he did change his mind about something. If you like the new rules then use them. If you do not lke the new rules then do not use them. Either way from the point of USPD onward all "official" characters will be published with the new rules; and will continue to be published with new rules as those rules evolve. The HERO System is not static.