Suppressing Frameworks

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suppressing Frameworks

 

It's not an issue of "can I?", but "will I?".

 

 

A character might want a sword with a sturdy sheath. He plans on using the sword to cut people up into tiny pieces, so he buys an HKA. He does not plan on using the sturdy sheath to pummel people, so he does not buy an HA. Could he use a sturdy sheath to pummel people? Yes. But he won't, so he doesn't buy the ability to pummel people.

 

Same with the utility belt MP. Does the character plan on handing out his foci, or using multiple foci simultaneously? If not, then why buy them that way?

 

The best laid plans of mice and men aft gae aglae.

 

You are right, of course, but buying the utility belt as an MP means you CAN'T. You don't get the choice.

 

So, going back to the original problem, what is it that makes these things mutually exclusive powers, if built with a MP - by ths argument, the only thing that does is the will of the player. interesting. The basic sfx is the narrative intention and will player of the character with the power.

 

Getting just a leeeetle existential for my poor little brain, but presumably draniing the multipower would then be draining the narrative intention and will of the player. So...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Suppressing Frameworks

 

Yup, there are ways to use a utility belt that wouldn't work with a utility belt purchsed as a multipower. So if you want to be able to use one in one of those ways, don't buy it as a multipower. If you don't mind it being limited in the ways that a multipower is limited, go ahead an buy it as a multipower.

 

If UtilityBeltMan has a nifty utility belt MP with lots of nifty stuff on it, there don't have to be locks on all of the pouches to stop him from being able to access the ones he doesn't have powered up in the MP. From a metagaming standpoint, he can't use those slots. The character and/or the ref are free to determine WHY they can't be used themselves. Which can be as simple as just that the character won't use more than one at a time.

 

This is the prime reason it is so hard to get gamers experienced with other systems interrested in converting to HERO. How accurate a simulation does HERO need to be. It depends on the HERO familiarity/experience of the gaming group and whether they are into the Starfleet-Battles-esq type of accuracy being suggested here.

 

Don't get me wrong. I personally agree with the logic here but I would recommend fudging it (allowing the MP to work via common sense) the first time it came up in game and try to help the player(s) refine the build outside of game (if time ever permitted!).

[archermoo]

Re: Suppressing Frameworks

 

This is the prime reason it is so hard to get gamers experienced with other systems interrested in converting to HERO. How accurate a simulation does HERO need to be. It depends on the HERO familiarity/experience of the gaming group and whether they are into the Starfleet-Battles-esq type of accuracy being suggested here.

 

Don't get me wrong. I personally agree with the logic here but I would recommend fudging it (allowing the MP to work via common sense) the first time it came up in game and try to help the player(s) refine the build outside of game (if time ever permitted!).

 

Agreed, that seems to be the hardest thing for people to wrap their heads around. In Hero, you don't buy "things". You buy "effects". You don't buy a sword, you buy the things that you can do with the sword. You don't buy a utility belt, you buy the things that you can do with that utility belt.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Suppressing Frameworks

 

The best laid plans of mice and men aft gae aglae.

Gay algae... what?

 

You are right, of course, but buying the utility belt as an MP means you CAN'T. You don't get the choice.

 

So, going back to the original problem, what is it that makes these things mutually exclusive powers, if built with a MP - by ths argument, the only thing that does is the will of the player. interesting. The basic sfx is the narrative intention and will player of the character with the power.

 

Actually, the player still gets the choice, he just decides to lock that choice in during character creation. I never force a player to buy his utility belt (or any other set of Powers) as a Multipower. The SFX isn't modified at all, only how/when/under what circumstanced the powers are used.

 

Getting just a leeeetle existential for my poor little brain, but presumably draniing the multipower would then be draining the narrative intention and will of the player. So...

Nope, just an example of a set of Powers that must be Drained individually and aren't affected as a group.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suppressing Frameworks

 

Gay algae... what?

 

OK so my spelling was a little out: it should have been:

 

The best-laid schemes o' mice an 'men

Gang aft agley,

 

http://robertburns.org/works/75.shtml

 

 

 

Actually, the player still gets the choice, he just decides to lock that choice in during character creation. I never force a player to buy his utility belt (or any other set of Powers) as a Multipower. The SFX isn't modified at all, only how/when/under what circumstanced the powers are used.

 

 

Nope, just an example of a set of Powers that must be Drained individually and aren't affected as a group.

 

The problem here is that the MP is being defined by an intention as to use rather than as an in-game concept, which is why my assertion that all MPs have a common sfx goes agley

 

If you define the MP logically in game terms - or only use it to build something that is logical in game terms - them my assertion will hold true.

 

The 'linking logic' of the utility belt is external to the game environment.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Suppressing Frameworks

 

The problem here is that the MP is being defined by an intention as to use rather than as an in-game concept, which is why my assertion that all MPs have a common sfx goes agley

 

If you define the MP logically in game terms - or only use it to build something that is logical in game terms - them my assertion will hold true.

 

The 'linking logic' of the utility belt is external to the game environment.

 

It holds true for my method as well. You get what you pay for, and you pay for what you get in either case. The only difference is that you suggest coming at the build from a realistic/potential use, and I'm coming at it from an metagame/actual use point of view. Either is correct so long as the way used is the way the player will play the character.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suppressing Frameworks

 

It holds true for my method as well. You get what you pay for' date=' and you pay for what you get in either case. The only difference is that you suggest coming at the build from a realistic/potential use, and I'm coming at it from an metagame/actual use point of view. Either is correct so long as the way used is the way the player will play the character.[/quote']

 

Well my assertion was that MPs always have some linking sfx that you can drain to drain the entire MP logically - hence the rather odd discussion earlier about draining the will of the player

[Dust Raven]

Re: Suppressing Frameworks

 

Well my assertion was that MPs always have some linking sfx that you can drain to drain the entire MP logically - hence the rather odd discussion earlier about draining the will of the player

Ah, okay. I understand now. I don't require any linking SFX for a Multipower. I've always understood Multipowers to be nothing more than a collection of Powers you can't use at the same time (or all of at the same time).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suppressing Frameworks

 

Ah' date=' okay. I understand now. I don't require any linking SFX for a Multipower. I've always understood Multipowers to be nothing more than a collection of Powers you can't use at the same time (or all of at the same time).[/quote']

 

Mechanically they are, but I believe that if you build one that is in-game logical then there will be linking sfx - the 'player's choice' option I'm not considering 'in0game logical'. That would spoil my whole argument, and we can't have that

[Dust Raven]

Re: Suppressing Frameworks

 

Mechanically they are' date=' but I believe that if you build one that is in-game logical then there will be linking sfx - the 'player's choice' option I'm not considering 'in0game logical'. That would spoil my whole argument, and we can't have that [/quote']

I'll agree with that. I've always believed player's choice need not be in game logical and vice versa.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Suppressing Frameworks

 

Here's my preferred methods of using Adjustment powers on Power Frameworks.

 

Multipowers - An adjustment power affecting a single power in the multipower simply increases or reduces it directly, without having to mess with the reserve. If the character switches to a different slot, the boosted/reduced slot cannot be used (as normal) but recovers from the adjustment power at the normal rate. If the adjustment power affects multiple powers in the MP, then I treat it as multiple single power adjustments rather than messing with reserve adjustment plus slot adjustment.

 

Elemental Controls - An adjustment power that reduces a single power in the EC goes against the base cost of the EC first, reducing every power in the EC by that amount. Once the base cost hits zero, remaining points of the adjustment are taken from the individual power. Adjustment powers that increase a single power in the reserve do so directly, just as if you were putting more points into the power with experience. Adjustment powers that reduce the entire EC affect both base cost and individual powers simultaneously as separate reductions. Adjustment powers that increase the entire EC are applied to the individual powers, without messing with the base cost.

 

Example 1: A 30 point EC with a 12d6 EB and 30" of Flight is hit with 40 points of drain on the EB. The base cost of the EC is dropped from 30 to 0, then the remaining points of drain are applied to the EB. End result is that the character has a 4d6 EB and 15" of flight left after the drain.

 

Example 2: The same EC is instead hit with a 20 point drain that affects all powers with the special effect of the EC. The base cost is reduced from 30 to 10, and each of the two powers are also reduced from 30 to 10. End result is that the character has a 4d6 EB and 10" of flight left after the drain.

 

Variable Power Pools - This is the tough one. My inclination is that any points drained from an active power in the VPP are 'locked out' and cannot be changed until they are recovered. So, if the VPP contains a 12d6 EB with no advantages or limitations, and the EB is drained by 20 points, then the VPP has 20 points that cannot be reassigned until they are recovered. The 40 remaining points in EB could be reassigned as normal. An increase on a single power in a VPP only affects that power, and are lost if the power is changed to something else.