Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

[Maelstrom]

Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I think the idea that you have to attain certain ranks within the Corps to attain certain ranks within the art interesting. Could this be another limitation to balance out an art? Has this been mentioned before?

[Vondy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I think its ludicrous.

[Markdoc]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Yeah, I can't see telling my players they can't buy "Offensive strike" because their characters are not commissioned

 

cheers, Mark

[sbarron]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

There is some precident in more traditional martial arts schools, where only the best or most dedicated students get taught the "Five-Point-Palm Exploding Heart Technique" type stuff. Not the same as a promotion/learn new moves structure, but similar.

[Shaft]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

On the other hand, not being able to attain a certain belt until a certain rank had been obtained would be typical of the military bureaucracy:

 

"PFC, if you want to learn the basic strike, you're going to have to make Lance Corporal first."

 

"But I can't make Lance Corporal until I learn this maneuver... "

 

"Yeah, sorry. It was so much simpler when all you had to do in this job was run and shoot."

[Shaft]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I think its ludicrous.

 

Ludicrous... military... where's the contradiction?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Hmm...this looks pretty silly to me...

 

When I was in the Corps we trained in the LINE System. Apparantly they switched to this new program in 2002 because the LINE system didnt have any non-lethal techniques which is seen as a problem in a policing mode.

 

Of course, I'd look at that and say that...well, yeah...Marines are supposed to kill, not be police.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

The only thing about this that strikes me as total bs is the rank requirements for belts.

 

There are exceptions but most Gunny's and MSgts are a bit out of shape, middle aged men with somewhere around 20 years and up of hard living and mediocre health care under their belt. In a fist fight, they'd get completely thrashed by a rock hard lightning fast private right out of basic that knows how to fight.

 

Dont get me wrong, there were a few "old men" of the Marine Corps that could put a beating on you, but they were the exception.

 

Same thing with the upper echelon of officers. They are OLD, and mister myagi ancient chinese master mystique aside, old generally does not equal more capable when it comes to physical endeavors. I mean, I know for sure that my 22 year old self could beat the heck out of my 32 year old self, and im sure its only going to get worse when im 42 and 52.

 

What it really is, some well intentioned moron probably brought up the idea of ranking belts, which could be incorporated into uniform attire. Martinets love that crap. Cub scout patches warm their little idiotic hearts. But then the idea crept in that a mere PFC who happens to be a bad ass fighter might master the fighting style and then -- GASP -- get to wear a higher ranked belt than their "superiors". Obviously that could not be allowed to happen.

 

Thus is introduced the rank requirements. If it didnt go down very much like that, I would be very much suprised.

[sbarron]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

When I was in the Corps we trained in the LINE System. Apparantly they switched to this new program in 2002 because the LINE system didnt have any non-lethal techniques which is seen as a problem in a policing mode.

I learned the LINE system, too. According to the website, the lack of offensive options was also seen as a drawback to LINE training. I guess this new system will fix that...

 

I was really pretty disappointed in my H-to-H training in the Corps. I hope this system is a little more comprehensive.

[sbarron]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Is this the section everyone is talking about here?

 

20. Why are there rank prerequisites for earning the higher belts?

 

Tan-entry level training.

 

Gray–no rank requirement.

 

Green–Lance Corporal and above.

 

Brown–Corporal and above.

 

Black–Sergeant and above.

 

Rank prerequisites are tied to the belt ranking system to ensure Marines possess the maturity, judgment and moral character required for advancement. This will ensure a Marine develops the physical skills to make them lethal warriors, they also develop a commensurate level of maturity and self-discipline. In addition, once a Marine attains Green belt or higher, the Marine is eligible to attend the Instructor Course, and later as a Black belt, the Instructor-Trainer Course. These two special qualifications within the belt ranking system require that the individual not only have mastered the belt requirements, but have the ability to teach as well. Teaching the principles of the mental, physical and character disciplines requires an understanding that cannot be grown overnight, but is a product of time and experience. The same years of training and guidance necessary to develop the Marine martial artist parallels the training and guidance required to develop future Marine Corps leaders. Thus the Marine Corps rank system and the martial arts belt system are inextricably linked.

Because if so, I'm going to go against the grain and say that I think this is a sound policy. You only teach the higher level stuff to guys that have spent some time in the Corps, and that will probably stick around.

 

Plus, wearing a different color t-shirt or belt doesn't mean you can kick anyones butt, anyway. You still have to do it.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Is this the section everyone is talking about here?

 

Because if so, I'm going to go against the grain and say that I think this is a sound policy. You only teach the higher level stuff to guys that have spent some time in the Corps, and that will probably stick around.

 

Plus, wearing a different color t-shirt or belt doesn't mean you can kick anyones butt, anyway. You still have to do it.

Also, these aren't exactly that much of a rank requirement.

 

Sergeant is NOT that hard to achieve.

 

I'm willing to bet the bigger barrier to getting the higher belt is going to be laziness and the individual not staying in practice since he's not going to be able to get instant gratification of belt rank.

 

Which kind of goes along with the "maturity" requirement that the USMC is looking for.

 

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

TB

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Here's (more or less) what they taught when I was in: USMC Close Combat

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Also, these aren't exactly that much of a rank requirement.

 

Sergeant is NOT that hard to achieve.

 

I'm willing to bet the bigger barrier to getting the higher belt is going to be laziness and the individual not staying in practice since he's not going to be able to get instant gratification of belt rank.

 

Which kind of goes along with the "maturity" requirement that the USMC is looking for.

 

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

TB

Rank might be more fluid right now as we are at war, but actually Sergeant is reasonalby difficult to acheive in the Corps. Many Marines serve their initial enlistment and get out as PFC's, LCpl's, and Cpl's. Or at least thats how it was when I served.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I learned the LINE system, too. According to the website, the lack of offensive options was also seen as a drawback to LINE training. I guess this new system will fix that...

 

I was really pretty disappointed in my H-to-H training in the Corps. I hope this system is a little more comprehensive.

 

I can't see the LINE system as having a lack of offensive options. Its basically almost all offense.

 

The general techniques are actually pretty effective if executed correctly; they served me well on a few occasions. My main disappointment w/ the HtH training was that it wasnt an ongoing concern. Most Marines just got the basics of it in boot and MCT and that was it.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Rank might be more fluid right now as we are at war' date=' but actually Sergeant is reasonalby difficult to acheive in the Corps. Many Marines serve their initial enlistment and get out as PFC's, LCpl's, and Cpl's. Or at least thats how it was when I served.[/quote']I haven't seen any change in the promotion system on the Army side of the house.

 

Though they did just recently wave the PT test requirement and Weight standards for deployed troops.

 

Other than that the only advantage that deployed troops would have is they're more likely to be recommended, and more of them have Awards from their deployment giving them more promotion points. That just makes them more competetive, the guy who hasn't been deployed who has hussle can do just as well if not better.

 

In the Army, 36 months time in service, 12 months time in grade is what you need for Sergeant (waiverable down to 18 months time in service, or 6 months time in grade)

 

We, however, don't have meritorious promotions in the same way that the Corps does.

 

Unless you really impress some General officer and he chooses to reward you, there is not meritorious promotion mechanism in the Army.

 

TB

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

The reason the meritorious promotion system exists in the Corps is because it can be difficult to get promoted otherwise.

 

The Marine Corps promotes by need by MOS, in cutting score order. So if they don't need any more people of the next higher rank in your MOS, you just don't get promoted no matter how long youve been in or how good you are or how high your pros and cons scores are.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

The reason the meritorious promotion system exists in the Corps is because it can be difficult to get promoted otherwise.

 

The Marine Corps promotes by need by MOS, in cutting score order. So if they don't need any more people of the next higher rank in your MOS, you just don't get promoted no matter how long youve been in or how good you are or how high your pros and cons scores are.

That's exactly how it is in the Army as well.

 

If they don't need any Sergeants or Staff Sergeants in an MOS, the cutoff score goes to 798 out of 800. Now, it's still possible to get promoted, but if you if you miss more than 1 bullet at the range out of 40, or miss a perfect score less than perfect on your PT test by more than 2 push-ups, 2 sit-ups, or 12 seconds on the run; you aren't getting promoted.

 

Otherwise, you just have to reclass to a below or at strength MOS.

 

TB

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

So then, do most soldiers acheive Sergeant in the Army on thier first term of enlistment?

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

So then' date=' do most soldiers acheive Sergeant in the Army on thier first term of enlistment?[/quote']No, not that I've seen but that's because most terms of enlistment aren't more than 3-4 years.

 

They don't stay in long enough to go for Sergeant, or they don't have enough time left to get promoted (you need to have so many months left on your enlistment, or be willing to re-up)

 

Even then, it just comes down to motivation. There were plenty of people around me who just weren't motivated to actually working for rank. They'd take whatever the Army was willing to give them in promotion (which is Specialist (E4)) but they had no interest in seeking anything higher.

 

I, however, did not find it hard at all getting Sergeant and there were plenty of my friends around me who were motivated that found it the same.

 

Now, there is the other issue of people getting to go before the promo board who just didn't have enough promo points to make themselves competetive for making the cut.

 

I was really surprised at that what I considered a mediocre effort on my part working at getting promo points and I shot to the top of the Order of Merit List (based on total promo points) for consideration to go to PLDC (the Army's Sergeant's Course)

 

How hard was it to get recommended for promotion in the Marines, what were the general time in service/grade requirements that you had to have before you could be considered?

 

TB

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Hard to say in a broad sense; my Marine Corps experience was probably a little unique due to my MOS (Intelligence), units (G-2s and Intelligence Co.), and medical problems (broken leg).

 

Personally, I made PFC out of boot, LCpl in the minimum possible time, and Corporal in two years. However, then I badly broke my leg -- full tib / fib fracture -- and went on limited duty. I broke it again twice more later on over the next 3 years (I had a 5 year contract). All total I spent 2 non-consecutive years of my 5 year contract on limited duty; about a year total in casts, and the other year in rehab / recovery mode.

 

I continued to be deployed and work on various special projects even on limited duty due to my clearance and special qualifications had high PFT scores, did all the required correspondence courses, had high point-value medals, very high pros & cons (4.9 / 4.9 average -- I even got a perfect 5.0 / 5.0 once from no less than a two-star general, which was unheard of). I eventually had a monstrous cutting score. Promotion warrants for Sergeant came down for me several times, but because I was on limited duty each time I was ineligible for it and they were destroyed. The subject came up often at high levels of command as I was very well known and frequently requested by name for various projects and ops.

 

It didnt matter to me at any rate; I had already decided my first year in before I was injured that I didnt intend to make a career of the military; I had won a congressional appointment to Annapolis, which was started before I joined but resolved after I had already been in the Corps about 5 months, and I turned it down almost at the end of the process after reaching the fleet and working at my initial jobs at 1st FSSG G2 for about a month and then I MEF G2 for several months.

 

I still gave it my all, mind you, but I fully planned to get out at the end of my tour and seek more rewarding work in the civilian sector, which I did.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Hard to say in a broad sense; my Marine Corps experience was probably a little unique due to my MOS (Intelligence), units (G-2s and Intelligence Co.), and medical problems (broken leg).

 

Personally, I made PFC out of boot, LCpl in the minimum possible time, and Corporal in two years. However, then I badly broke my leg -- full tib / fib fracture -- and went on limited duty. I broke it again twice more later on over the next 3 years (I had a 5 year contract). All total I spent 2 non-consecutive years of my 5 year contract on limited duty; about a year total in casts, and the other year in rehab / recovery mode.

 

I continued to be deployed and work on various special projects even on limited duty due to my clearance and special qualifications had high PFT scores, did all the required correspondence courses, had high point-value medals, very high pros & cons (4.9 / 4.9 average -- I even got a perfect 5.0 / 5.0 once from no less than a two-star general, which was unheard of). I eventually had a monstrous cutting score. Promotion warrants for Sergeant came down for me several times, but because I was on limited duty each time I was ineligible for it and they were destroyed.

 

It didnt matter to me at any rate; I had already decided my first year in before I was injured that I didnt intend to make a career of the military; I had one a congressional appointment to Annapolis, which resolved after I had already been in the Corps about 5 months, and I turned it down almost at the end of the process after reaching the fleet and working at my initial jobs at 1st FSSG G2 for about a month and then I MEF G2 for several months.

 

I still gave it my all, mind you, but I fully planned to get out at the end of my tour and seek more rewarding work in the civilian sector, which I did.

Well, your job (Intelligence) and unit (Intelligence Co.) wasn't that different from mine (Intelligence) and my unit (Intelligence Co.)

 

It does seem that you got some cherry assignments, which coupled with your obvious talents and motivation were unique.

 

I don't think in the Army you can be denied a promotion for being on temporary profile as long as you have a still valid PT test (less than a year old) and aren't on weight control.

 

Even a permenant profile isn't a bar against promotion.

 

A Temorary profile is just a bar against going to any professional development schools (like the Sergeant's Course). A permenant profile wasn't a bar.

 

That seems awefully stupid penalizing someone from promotion because they happened to be recovering form a injury.

 

TB

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Awfully stupid rules is something the military excels at, in my experience

[USAFguy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Isn't the real difference that the new martial arts are required of ALL Marines of ALL ranks? Or was I misled by the news release.

 

Mark

[sbarron]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I was in the infantry, 2nd battalion/4th marines, in Lejeune from 92 to 96. Promotions in the infantry were also pretty rare. Most guys arrived in the fleet as Privates or PFC, got promoted to lance corporal within a year, and made corporal sometime late in their 3rd year or early in their 4th. Making Sgt in 4 years in the infantry could happen, but it had to happen because someone was acing boards and getting meritorious promotions. Usually, however, guys could make Sgt. if the re-upped pretty fast...like say by their 5th or 6th year.

 

We "learned" in bootcamp and MCS pretty much everything Killer Shrike pointed to in Close Combat link. Which is to say we spent a couple days on it here and there. When we got to the fleet, every few weeks we would practice LINE training, which is to say we went through the LINE training drills for a couple hours at most. A couple of our NCOs got to go through the full course, which might have lasted a week. They returned and were supposed to spread what they'd learned around to us. Didn't much happen, though.

 

There just wasn't much importance placed on H-to-H training. At the time, the real concern of the Corps seemed to be that we would be taught something that we'd hurt a civilian with, or we'd get hurt in training. So it was better "not" to train us up much, for fear we would abuse the knowledge and someone would get hurt.

 

I think Killer Shrike is probably right about things being different in "war time." You can say what you want about the Marine Corps, but there is no way the leadership is going to send young Marines out into combat without all the advantages that can be provided them (if it can be helped). Placing a real emphasis on H-to_H training will help Marines in combat. And probably even more so if they're in operations other than combat, where non-lethal force becomes a realistic option.

[sbarron]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Isn't the real difference that the new martial arts are required of ALL Marines of ALL ranks? Or was I misled by the news release.

 

Mark

Every marine is a rifleman, so all marines are taught at least the basic combat training, regardless of sex, rank, or MOS. H-to-H stuff included. I think the difference is that there will be an emphasis placed on this training, which wasn't the case in the past.