Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

[Squall]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I've always figured your average infantryman is supposed to (a) shoot the bastard, not karate chop him, or failing that ( take 'em in hand to hand just by being in better shape than your average Joe on the street. There's not a ton of hand to hand training required, then (given they're generally busier, and better served, through more marksmanship or general PT), and -- as was mentioned -- the possibility/probability for injuries in hand to hand training's gotta be pretty danged high.

 

Never (quite) got to Serve, myself. Signed up as a 12B in the Army (Combat Engineer), went to Ft Lost-In-The-Woods in 2001, had two weeks to go of OSUT, and got sent home, diagnosed with asthma, and check-marked as "physically unfit for service." Nothing quite like finding out you're asthmatic at basic. It's still one of my biggest regrets -- I keep thinking maybe if I'd tried it just a few years earlier (and been just a few years younger than my then-23), maybe I could've done better, and the asthma never would've come up.

 

Ah well. Spilled milk, and all that.

[Shaft]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I have a question for those of you who have actually done the Marine HtH (or can envision what it should be when they teach it right) in relation to the game rules:

 

How close is it to the Commando HtH listed in the UMA on p23? Is there anything that should be added/dropped from that listing?

 

(For those of you who don't have it, I've listed the maneuvers:

• Aikido Throw (3 pts) +0OCV/+1DCV STR +v/5 damage, target falls
  
• Boxing Cross (4 pts) +0OCV/+2DCV STR +2d6 damage
  
• Choke (4 pts) Grab one limb, 2d6 NND
  
• Escape (4 pts) +15 STR to escape
  
• Hold (4 pts) -1OCV/-1DCV Grab Three Limbs, +10 STR for hold
  
• Judo Disarm (4 pts) -1OCV/+1DCV, disarm, +10 STR for disarm
  
• Karate "Chop" (4 pts) -2OCV/+0DCV HKA 1/2d
  
• Kung Fu Block (4 pts) +2OCV/+2DCV Block, Abort
  
• Breakfall
  
• WF: small arms
  
• Weapon Element Bare-handed (default)
  
• Weapon Element Club
  
• Weapon Element Knives

Does the existing style already cover this, effectively making the Marine LINE system a "special effect" of the Commando style, or should something be added to differentiate it?

[Vondy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I'm of the opinion that your average soldier - including infantrymen - doesn't have any martial maneuvers. They probably don't have hand to hand levels, either. There are lots of basic maneuvers their introductory training probably enlighten them to, but they aren't hand to hand officianados. Its not really what they're trained to do. On the other hand, you probably have a small core of really dedicated warriors who have taken the time to avail themselves of the opportunities, and most of them probably have 1 or 2 maneuvers. Remember, a black belt is generally defined as having 10 points of maneuvers, a KS, and maybe some WE/WF skills.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Somewhat OT, but as long as we're talking military martial arts --

 

Say, VDM, is Krav Maga still taught to all members of the IDF? And just how extensive is the training?

 

I've also heard that it was being taught outside Israel now, to police and soldiers from other nations. It sounds like a perfect martial art for cops and such, from everything I've read/heard about it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I have a question for those of you who have actually done the Marine HtH (or can envision what it should be when they teach it right) in relation to the game rules:

 

How close is it to the Commando HtH listed in the UMA on p23? Is there anything that should be added/dropped from that listing?

 

(For those of you who don't have it, I've listed the maneuvers:

• Aikido Throw (3 pts) +0OCV/+1DCV STR +v/5 damage, target falls
  
• Boxing Cross (4 pts) +0OCV/+2DCV STR +2d6 damage
  
• Choke (4 pts) Grab one limb, 2d6 NND
  
• Escape (4 pts) +15 STR to escape
  
• Hold (4 pts) -1OCV/-1DCV Grab Three Limbs, +10 STR for hold
  
• Judo Disarm (4 pts) -1OCV/+1DCV, disarm, +10 STR for disarm
  
• Karate "Chop" (4 pts) -2OCV/+0DCV HKA 1/2d
  
• Kung Fu Block (4 pts) +2OCV/+2DCV Block, Abort
  
• Breakfall
  
• WF: small arms
  
• Weapon Element Bare-handed (default)
  
• Weapon Element Club
  
• Weapon Element Knives

Does the existing style already cover this, effectively making the Marine LINE system a "special effect" of the Commando style, or should something be added to differentiate it?

 

The training I received focused a lot on wrist locks, arm bars, groin strikes, takedowns, and head strikes. We trained a bit on punching, but for the most part were encouraged to use our elbows and boots to avoid breaking our hands or bruising our knees. We also trained on breaking opponents wrists, elbows, and knees.

 

We trained a fair amount on breaking a grab in a fashion that is closest to a reversal to be followed up with a wrist or arm lock, but other than that while the grappling aspects were covered they were not encouraged.

 

The goal was to take an opponent out as fast as possible -- usually by doing something extremely painful to create an opening and put them at a disadvantage, and then finishing them.

 

 

Without sitting down and spending a lot of time on it, if you went through all of the manuevers covered by LINE training, Id say the core maneuver list was something like this:

 

Lead Hand Strike: normal Strike (free)

Rear Hand Strike: Basic Strike (3)

Counter To Punch: Grappling Block (5)

Counter To Grab: Reversal (4)

Takedown / Throws: Takedown (3)

Wrist Lock / Armbar / Joint Manipulation: Joint Lock (4)

Break Wrist / Elbow: Joint Break (5)

Blood Choke: Choke Hold (4)

Axe Stomp / Groin Strike / Knee Kick: Killing Strike (4)

Pressure Point Strikes: Nerve Strike (4)

Tactical Disarm: Takeaway (5)

 

And with the following Elements:

Knives

Club / Batons

Rifle / Bayonet

Use Art While Prone

 

However, thats obviously a huge expenditure of points. In reality, while the instructors and those that received more in depth training had some or all of these manuevers, the average Marine given the basic LINE training probably derived the following benefit from it:

 

Rear Hand Strike: Basic Strike (3)

Wrist Lock / Armbar / Joint Manipulation: Joint Lock (4)

Takedown / Throws: Takedown (3)

 

Marines that already had some HtH fighting skill or took to it quickly and were able to derive more benefit from the same training might have one or two more maneuvers, most likely those that are easiest to pick up or that are more "natural" such as:

 

Blood Choke: Choke Hold (4)

Axe Stomp / Groin Strike / Knee Kick: Killing Strike (4)

Counter To Grab: Reversal (4)

 

We actually did bayonet and rifle fighting training seperate of LINE training, but there is obvious cross over, so most Marines would probably have the Rifle / Bayonet element, but the other elements were much less emphasized and most Marines would not have them.

[Shaft]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Memo to self: must not taunt the Marine Corps.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

The Army's new Combatives training is covered in FM 3-21.150:

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/index.html

 

Every 2LT is supposed to be trained up to Level 1 by the time they get out of th Basic Officer's Leadership Course (Level II) and the Basic Officer's Leadership Course (Level III) (Level II is a new course that is the Army's try at duplicating "the Basic Course" that the Marines have and BOLC III is the old Army Officer Basic Course)

 

Level 1 is supposed to involve 40-45 hours of classroom instruction.

 

The idea is to get all LTs trained up in it so they can bring the knowledge back to there platoons and units and be helpers to the Platoon Sergeant who should be trained up to Level 2 or 3.

 

The Army Combatives (at Level 1) are focused on grappling, chokes, and escaping from others putting you in the guard. It's supposed to be based on Brazilian Jujitsu.

 

TB

[Shaft]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

The Army's new Combatives training is covered in FM 3-21.150:

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/index.html

 

Every 2LT is supposed to be trained up to Level 1 by the time they get out of th Basic Officer's Leadership Course (Level II) and the Basic Officer's Leadership Course (Level III) (Level II is a new course that is the Army's try at duplicating "the Basic Course" that the Marines have and BOLC III is the old Army Officer Basic Course)

 

Level 1 is supposed to involve 40-45 hours of classroom instruction.

 

The idea is to get all LTs trained up in it so they can bring the knowledge back to there platoons and units and be helpers to the Platoon Sergeant who should be trained up to Level 2 or 3.

 

The Army Combatives (at Level 1) are focused on grappling, chokes, and escaping from others putting you in the guard. It's supposed to be based on Brazilian Jujitsu.

 

TB

 

So how close would you say Hero's "Commando Training" martial art is to it?

[actingkeith]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

The Marine Corps promotes by need by MOS' date=' in cutting score order. So if they don't need any more people of the next higher rank in your MOS, you just don't get promoted no matter how long youve been in or how good you are or how high your pros and cons scores are.[/quote']

 

While that was true on paper when I was in (85 to 89), it was a load of crap because promotions and TOE were based on budget, which meant that they would keep folks at E3 and below until it came time to re-up, then they'd dangle E4 in your face to get you to sign. I knew so many E3s who had a GCM (Good Conduct Medal - give after 4 years of service and not having been arrested/tried/convicted/NJP'd for something too serious).

 

I was stunned when they made me an E4 before my enlistment ended.

 

And now back on topic:

 

I think a Rank-based system of Martial Arts for the Marines is retarded. The fiercest Marines I knew were the E2s through E4 (excepting of course all those wacky E1s who had been in for 3 years and just couldn't keep out of trouble). After E4, you have to really start letting go of the mean stuff and start focusing on 'larger picture' issues like Maneuver, Tactics, and Logictics.

 

And Officers should get any real Martial Arts anything past whatever a basic newbie would get. I mean really, please... get real.

 

I don't remember what sort of fighting training I got when I was in, all I remember is that we got into a lot of fights, usually amongst ourselves unless there was some Navy around, or better yet Army... we always left the Air Force alone for some reason. We'd fight anyone - it was crazy. It was brutal.

 

My preference would be an MOS based system that would go something like this:

 

Basic Training - Everyone gets this including Officers- but I don't care what it looks like... the rest of what's below is for enlisted only.

03xx - Infantry Package - if you're in an Infantry MOS you get this

0341 - The mortar guys don't get anything passed the 03xx package

0351 - Same for the anti tank assault guys, they're to busy trying to be combat engineeers

0331 - Machine Gunners (aside from be completely insane, all of them) should get a bit more stuff

0311 - The Rifleman should have access to the most training of any Marine with the exception of

0321 - The Recon Marine should probably have one or two sneaky/nasty things above an 0311 grunt.

 

Since I was in the infantry as a Scout, I don't know what fighting crap the other MOSs got on a regular basis, or who received any HtH fighting training past Boot Camp. If any of them did, they should have a maneuver or two above the Basic Training package.

 

I remember the Motor T guys being really good in a scrap, and the Cooks really liked to hit... anyone.

 

I also would say that the Ranks of E3 and E4 should be allowed to have the most Levels in HtH, Ranged, or probably All Combat. E1s and 2s should be limited, and past E4, they need to make those levels Overall, or change them to levels of Tactics or Logistics skills.

 

Anyway those are my thoughts.

 

Cheers,

 

-keith

[actingkeith]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Does the existing style already cover this' date=' effectively making the Marine LINE system a "special effect" of the Commando style...[/quote']

 

I think that it's pretty much a Special Effect of the Commando Style.

[Vondy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Somewhat OT, but as long as we're talking military martial arts --

 

Say, VDM, is Krav Maga still taught to all members of the IDF? And just how extensive is the training?

 

I've also heard that it was being taught outside Israel now, to police and soldiers from other nations. It sounds like a perfect martial art for cops and such, from everything I've read/heard about it.

 

It is taught in the IDF, as well as to military and law enforcement outside of Israel. Within the IDF, since the ratio of support to grunts in modern militaries runs 6:1 to 8:1, most soldiers only get a crash crash course. Mainline infantry units get somewhat more training, and additional voluntary classes are available if they want them. I can't say how many people avail themselves of them. The exceptions are the sayaret (special forces) and military border police, who have regularly scheduled Krav Maga training requirements they have to meet - and who are said to be very good at it.

 

The special units of the Israeli National Police, like the Yassam units, also train regularly with it, but like most police agencies, your average officer is somewhat lax about these things - though he does train with it some. Also, in terms of police use, its been noted that Krav Maga is not appropriate many common police scenarios, and this has resulted in a great deal of internal criticism of the Israeli National Police, who have a deserved reputation for unecessary brutality.

 

As someone who studied criminal justice and worked as an auxilliary police officer in the United States I have observed that the professional continuum of force for civillian police is virtually non-existant in Israel. The INP is essentially an organization of Wyatt Earps. They INP Police Intelligence Division is incredible, as is the CID (very high success rates for crimes solved), but the average police officer (and their commanders) would be regarded as unprofessional by Western standards.

 

He's essentially a guy who got out of the military and went into an organization that encouraged him to continue thinking and acting like he was in the military - despite radically different operational paradigms. With the exception of special units you should not teach police officers commando training because they will use what you teach them! A police officer dealing with the public needs different tools to do his job effectively. He's not Rambo and he is dealing with his fellow citizens, not enemy combatants. I'm very dubious about western police organizations adopting Krav Maga - its the wrong tool for the job.

 

Which is not to say it isn't effective (it is very effective in an ugly sort of way); but really, when the LAPD starts in with eye gouges, lip and ear pulls (and tears), joint breaks, and kidney shots as opposed to locks, pressure points, and baton use on meaty, non-lethal body parts, I garauntee you the public will go ape over it - and with good reason. Bud White, for all his glory, is not what we look for in our LE officers.

[Shaft]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

With the exception of special units you should not teach police officers commando training because they will use what you teach them! A police officer dealing with the public needs different tools to do his job effectively. He's not Rambo and he is dealing with his fellow citizens, not enemy combatants. I'm very dubious about western police organizations adopting Krav Maga - its the wrong tool for the job.

 

"There's a reason you separate the military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people." -Commander Adama, in the episode "Bastille Day"

[Lucius]

Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I don't remember what sort of fighting training I got when I was in, all I remember is that we got into a lot of fights, usually amongst ourselves unless there was some Navy around, or better yet Army... we always left the Air Force alone for some reason. We'd fight anyone - it was crazy. It was brutal.

 

That’s because the Air Force doesn’t give you the opportunity to fight. A scene from my own Basic Training:

 

Instructor: Okay, say you’re drinking in a bar and a bunch of Marines come swaggering in, start drinking, and make insulting remarks about those wussy flyboys. What do you do?

Me: Sir, I’d go do my drinking in another bar.

(Lots of laughing.)

Instructor: Airman Alexander has it right. Stay out of the way of the Marines.

 

They teach us to leave you alone. We already know U.S. Marines are crazy, brutal, and the world’s best warriors short of the Special Forces. No need to let you prove it the hard way (hard for us.)

 

You crazy guys go practice your hand to hand with the Soldiers and Sailors. We’ll stay focused on things like making sure you get as little chance as possible to go hand to hand with the enemy by rendering them dead, disorganized, and/or demoralized before you get your crack at them.

 

"There's a reason you separate the military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state' date=' the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people." -Commander Adama, in the episode "Bastille Day"[/quote']

 

REPPED. Times like this I wish I had a TV.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an Air Force Surplus palindromedary

[Lucius]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."

 

General William Thomson

 

 

But General Thomson was in the Army, so what does he know about Marines?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an Air Force Surplus Palindromedary

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

... With the exception of special units you should not teach police officers commando training because they will use what you teach them! A police officer dealing with the public needs different tools to do his job effectively. He's not Rambo and he is dealing with his fellow citizens, not enemy combatants. I'm very dubious about western police organizations adopting Krav Maga - its the wrong tool for the job.

 

Which is not to say it isn't effective (it is very effective in an ugly sort of way); but really, when the LAPD starts in with eye gouges, lip and ear pulls (and tears), joint breaks, and kidney shots as opposed to locks, pressure points, and baton use on meaty, non-lethal body parts, I garauntee you the public will go ape over it - and with good reason. Bud White, for all his glory, is not what we look for in our LE officers.

 

I only wish that the people I deal with were held to the same standard of fair play and gentleness when they decide to fight.

 

Locks and pressure points are useless unless the person is suitably subdued before you try to apply them. People who want to kill you, or ar least knock your head off, do not wait for a fancy joint lock to be applied. They continue to try and hurt you at full speed. The only exception I have ever seen to this in practical application is if the person applying the hold significatly outweighs the person who is resisting the hold, and that's not a guarantee. I have seen some "cool" stuff in the dojo that would never fly in real life.

 

There is a reason some Japanese systems still teach atemi-waza (disabling blows). These moves went before and after less damaging techniques in old school martial training. You stunned or injured people before you tried to apply a lock or a choke.

 

Baton strikes to the targets described are good, but the number that you generally have to deliver tend to offend the public and review boards. Remember, these people are hopped up on adrenaline, alcohol, crack, PCP or some combination of the above. They tend not to feel pain like the average person would. However, I agree that that is the best way to use an impact weapon when deadly force is not warranted.

 

The fastest takedown I have ever seen on the street was a kidney shot. Was it right? I don't know, but it worked and no one was hurt. I would only balk at pulling off an ear because I don't know if it would be a decisive move, and it would be too hard to explain after the fact. However, If I am losing I will do whatever comes to mind. No apologies.

 

I say train in Krav Maga, Jeet Kun Do, Kali, whatever you want, but don't be unrealistic in your expectations when thing go wrong in the street. Don't forget there are no real superheroes out there. Police officers are not invulnerable. As always, YMMV.

[actingkeith]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."

 

General William Thomson

 

But General Thomson was in the Army, so what does he know about Marines?

I think what he was probably saying was

 

(scratching his head in confusion) "...I, I, I just don't get it...it's weird..."

 

<<<>>>

 

One of the guys in my unit had previously been an Army Ranger with service in the Granada invasion (1982). When asked why he changed services, his response was to tell a story about how his Ranger unit (30 guys) was pinned down they called for help... and what showed up was a squad of Marines (a dozen guys)... the Marines ran, laughing and yelping straight into the assault and wiped out the opposition (which turned out to be a platoon-sized unit of about 50 guys) in a matter of minutes.

 

He said it was the joy-filled laughing and yelping that sent a chill down his spine and made him realize that the marines were a different breed. He said he needed to find out what that was all about.

 

<<<>>>

 

It's weird.

 

Marines are weird.

 

Peace,

 

-k

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Dumb OT question time -- So, lapsedgamer, you're a police officer then?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I think what he was probably saying was

 

(scratching his head in confusion) "...I, I, I just don't get it...it's weird..."

 

<<<>>>

 

One of the guys in my unit had previously been an Army Ranger with service in the Granada invasion (1982). When asked why he changed services, his response was to tell a story about how his Ranger unit (30 guys) was pinned down they called for help... and what showed up was a squad of Marines (a dozen guys)... the Marines ran, laughing and yelping straight into the assault and wiped out the opposition (which turned out to be a platoon-sized unit of about 50 guys) in a matter of minutes.

 

He said it was the joy-filled laughing and yelping that sent a chill down his spine and made him realize that the marines were a different breed. He said he needed to find out what that was all about.

 

<<<>>>

 

It's weird.

 

Marines are weird.

 

Peace,

 

-k

 

We're not weird, we're just a litte crazy.

[Starwolf]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Marines are weird.-k

 

Of course they are...

 

What is the sound of crap hitting the fan?

 

 

 

MAAARRRRINE!!!!

 

We have all seen the Marine Corps emblem...

 

The proud eagle with his wings spread to show the Marines dominion over land and sea....

 

with the fowled anchor shoved up his butt to remind him where he comes from

 

ROFLOL

 

Seriously marines are cool

 

** I am retired Navy in case you can't tell from the banter **

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

True story, Fenris. I only post about it when I get cranky.

[NightStick]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

We're not weird' date=' we're just a litte crazy.[/quote']

 

I second that thought!

 

IIRC, While I was in 3rd phase of boot camp at MCRD, CA. back in the 70's, I had a Gunny that did "three tours" in Nam. He was teaching "self defense" to the squad that I was in. The statement that I remember above all else, was as follows..."The crazier you are, the easier the fight will be." His analogy was about him in a bar after his boot camp. He offended another patron, who was there with his three buddies and after some name calling was challenged to a fight. He "repectfully" declined, because there weren't enough of them to be a fair fight. Another couple of willing participants from the next table over offered to help put the "jarhead" in his place. The net result, was that the Gunny walked away with a split lip and some bleeding knuckles. The six "others" were left for the bar to clean up; insinuating unconsiousness.

 

I can't say that I truly believed the story, but, as they say, when in Rome...

 

UUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!

[Vondy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

As always' date=' YMMV.[/quote']

 

It does, but probably because ships have passed in the night rather than a philosophical difference. I studied crim-j and worked as an auxilliary officer. I suited up and pulled shifts; and I knew what went on with the other officers on a day in and day out basis. It is a rare day indeed that an officer would need the techniques Krav Maga focuses on. I had studied wing chun and judo at the time, and found them useful, but I never needed to rend, maim, or disfigure someone I was arresting, and neither did the officers I worked with. Guns came out on occassion, and I had the displeasure of responding to an armed robbery that had shots fired, but once you've reached that level you've gone past the subdue and arrest paradigm altogether, anyways.

 

Yes, the Japanese Police study martial arts extensively and learn disabling techniques, but the art they study provides them with a vast array of options that allows them to end 99% of the situations they encounter before they reach the "get medieval" fest of joy. What's more, they work in a very different cultural paradigm, and they have to answer for using potentially injurious techniques the same way an American police officer has to answer for using a weapon on a suspect. They don't take it lightly, and they wouldn't approve of an officer using several of the techniques in Krav Maga because it doesn't fit their philosophy of policing, or their culture, either. Despite the broad authority their police enjoy, they still have sharp lines defining what is appropriate, and many of the more brutal techniques are considered verboten.

 

Krav Maga does not give you a vast array of additional options you can use to subdue and arrest a suspect before it gets to the rend, maim, and disfigure point because it skips right over the preliminaries and goes straight to that dark, nasty, lawless place. It has a limited array of strikes and holds because it wasn't really designed for that because those are foreplay and its an insensitive alpha male that wants to do the deed. Krav Maga is an incomplete art, and its not a very good tool unless you go in planning to take no prisoners; or intend your prisoners be dragged in broken. Its not congruent with the function of the police, who fill of civillian role in a much tighter, more controlled paradigm that a soldier finds himself in. Just because it works in the alleys of Bint Jbeil doesn't mean it should be used on citizens who have fallen afoul of the police.

 

A police officer uses what you teach him because he has to fall back on his training when it hits the fan. If you teach him a limited art that focuses on extremely brutal techniques then you will get limited and extremely brutal police officers - not because they are bad men, but because you didn't give them more suitable options that can be applied to the average street encounter with an opponent who is less than gentle, but doesn't require having his ears torn off, his eyes gouged out, his joints broken backwards, his windpipe crushed, his kidneys being elbowed and his spleen ruptured, his ribcage being smashed in with repeated knee shots....

 

You see where this is going. I'm not opposed to police learning well rounded martial arts that give them appropriate options when confronting suspects in the field. In fact, I advocate it. But I am patently opposed to training police officers learning an art that focuses on all the wrong things in terms of the job they do. Just kick him in the face or something.

[Tim]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I think this fits this thread.

[Starwolf]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

I think this fits this thread.

 

Thats funny

 

All of the undead "Marines" in the picture are wearing Army Ranger tabs and airborne patches

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

 

Thats funny

 

All of the undead "Marines" in the picture are wearing Army Ranger tabs and airborne patches

And 82nd Airborne Division unit patches.

 

TB