New Talent: Spell Slot

[BobGreenwade]

Here's a FH-relevant Talent I've been looking at: Spell Slot.

 

The effect is to allow a magic-user one additional active spell at a given time.

 

The cost is 2 points (constructed as +5 INT; Only To Increase Number Of Active Spells At A Time [-1 1/2]).

 

Opinions?

[DrFaust]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

I'm not familiar with the idea of spell slots in HERO. Is this something from FH?

[sbarron]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

The idea and execution looks good to me, Bob.

 

As far as where it's from, I'm not sure. It seems like its been a while since I first read it, but spellcasters can have their INT/5 number of spells active at any one time in several HERO magic systems. Naming them "spell slots" might not be an official term, but I think it's as good a title as any.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

I did the exact thing in my old FH game for a school of magic that featured all spells with Extra Time, so combat ready ones were all Delayed Effect.

 

It works, & I liked it.

 

I also allowed, on occasion, Int (with a -1 limit instead of -1 1/2) That added to Slots and Magic Skill rolls for spellcasting, usually Focused (for the classic Mages Staff).

 

The basic idea works well for "spell storing" devices like Adders from Rolemaster.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

I'm not familiar with the idea of spell slots in HERO. Is this something from FH?

 

To simulate the number of continuous spells a caster can have active sometimes "slots" are implemented. The number of slots a caster has is usually INT/5. Thus a 10 INT caster can keep 2 spells active at any given time.

[Peter_Knutsen]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

I also allowed' date=' on occasion, Int (with a -1 limit instead of -1 1/2) That added to Slots and Magic Skill rolls for spellcasting, usually Focused (for the classic Mages Staff).[/quote']

 

I'm not an expert on Hero System yet, but isn't it the case that 5 Active Points with a (-1) Limitation will end up costing the same as 5 Active Points with a (-1 1/2) Limitation). 2 points in both cases?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

I'm not an expert on Hero System yet' date=' but isn't it the case that 5 Active Points with a (-1) Limitation will end up costing the same as 5 Active Points with a (-1 1/2) Limitation). 2 points in both cases?[/quote']

 

With no other modifiers, yep. Tis the nature of rounding. If you increase the quantity, or add in other modifiers it can make a difference.

 

if you take 4 extra slots worth of INT, f'rinstance, the "slot only" INT will cost 8 points, while the "Magic Skill & Slot" INT will cost 10.

 

For purposes of building a new Talent I'd probably stick with Bob's idea, or tweak mine to fit an even 3 points per Slot/+1.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

I'm not an expert on Hero System yet' date=' but isn't it the case that 5 Active Points with a (-1) Limitation will end up costing the same as 5 Active Points with a (-1 1/2) Limitation). 2 points in both cases?[/quote']If you buy just one, yes, it works out that way. If you buy two, then with a (-1) Limitation it's 5 points, but with a (-1 1/2) Limitation it's 4 points.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

Here's a FH-relevant Talent I've been looking at: Spell Slot.

 

The effect is to allow a magic-user one additional active spell at a given time.

 

The cost is 2 points (constructed as +5 INT; Only To Increase Number Of Active Spells At A Time [-1 1/2]).

 

Opinions?

 

In ye olden days, of the FIRST Fantasy Hero, it was quite common to have Aid INT with the limitation (Only To Increase Number Of Active Spells At A Time which I think was a -1). Although I can't remember if points raising INT pass 20 (or whatever your racial's upper limit was) was halved or not.

 

Obviously, this was the first spell you cast in the morning, the spell that freed up your brain for having more spells stored.

 

In my game, I simply changed it to INT/3 instead of INT/5. Granted, this was a house rule, but at least no one is trying to figure out how to buy more spell slots. (The wizard has a 23 INT and 8 spell slots and is quite happy.)

[Lucius]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

I'm not familiar with the idea of spell slots in HERO. Is this something from FH?

 

Certain power advantages don't work as well unless there is SOME kind of upper limit to the total number of powers one can have "active" at a time.

 

If you have a lot of spells with Delayed Effect, and no restrictions, you could spend a few days getting ready beforehand and walk into an adventure with literally hundreds of spells at your fingertips.

 

A common solution is to say "no more than 1 per 5 pts of INT" but I might say "NO free spell slots" and make the players buy each one seperately.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

No free palindromedaries!

[DrFaust]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

A common solution is to say "no more than 1 per 5 pts of INT" but I might say "NO free spell slots" and make the players buy each one seperately.

 

I've never really run into a player who tried something like that. I can see where a rule like this would helpful, if talking to the player first didn't work -- although, why would one play with a person who's not willing to cooperate with the GM?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

Certain power advantages don't work as well unless there is SOME kind of upper limit to the total number of powers one can have "active" at a time.

 

If you have a lot of spells with Delayed Effect, and no restrictions, you could spend a few days getting ready beforehand and walk into an adventure with literally hundreds of spells at your fingertips.

 

A common solution is to say "no more than 1 per 5 pts of INT" but I might say "NO free spell slots" and make the players buy each one seperately.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

No free palindromedaries!

 

When Thia first joined and was pestering all of us old timers about how to build a magic system that has a similar feel to D&D/D20 I played around with some additonal options for the "all Delayed Effect" magic system using a Talent system that I ended up rather liking and might use someday. The pertinent part of the system was a "Mastery" Perk that could be purchaced repeatedly and changed the divisor on INT for Spell slots, so someone who picked up magic with no formal training would have the usual INT/5, one level of Mastery (Apprentice) gets you INT/3, Two levels (Journeyman) gets you INT/2, and three levels (Master) nets you INT as slots.

 

I'd tweak it around a bit before any actual implementation and juggle some numbers, but I think the idea is still sound.

[Lucius]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

I've never really run into a player who tried something like that. I can see where a rule like this would helpful' date=' if talking to the player first didn't work -- although, why would one play with a person who's not willing to cooperate with the GM?[/quote']

 

The point is, whether you're playing in the game or running the game, many people find it helpful to have a definite rule that is (pardon the expression) "Spelled out" so that they know EXACTLY what they can and can't do.

 

Or look at it this way. If someone IS trying to cooperate and comes to you and asks "just exactly how many spells can I have prepared this way?" what do you tell them? And what do you tell them if they then ask if there's any way they could have more than that?

 

If such a rule didn't exist, it would have to be invented.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an infinite number of Sumon Palindromedary spells.

[DrFaust]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

If such a rule didn't exist' date=' it would have to be invented.[/quote']

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

When Thia first joined and was pestering all of us old timers about how to build a magic system that has a similar feel to D&D/D20 I played around with some additonal options for the "all Delayed Effect" magic system using a Talent system that I ended up rather liking and might use someday. The pertinent part of the system was a "Mastery" Perk that could be purchaced repeatedly and changed the divisor on INT for Spell slots, so someone who picked up magic with no formal training would have the usual INT/5, one level of Mastery (Apprentice) gets you INT/3, Two levels (Journeyman) gets you INT/2, and three levels (Master) nets you INT as slots.

 

I'd tweak it around a bit before any actual implementation and juggle some numbers, but I think the idea is still sound.

 

Funny, how nearly one and a half years later (sheesh) I've come to multiple conclusions, not the least of which is how to nearly-perfectly emulate what I wanted (despite some suggestions from KS, I'm actually much happier with my version than I was with his, although it gave me a great starting point).

 

I don't use the slot system, but I thought a rule similar to this already existed in FH? So I'm doubly confuzzled.

[Basil]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

Nice, but unnecessary. According to Hero 5th, page 164, Delayed Effect, buying an additional +1/4 (on all spells with Delayed Effect ) doubles the number of spells that can be activated at once.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

AHA, yeah, that was it. Thank you.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

Nice' date=' but unnecessary. According to [i']Hero 5th[/i], page 164, Delayed Effect, buying an additional +1/4 (on all spells with Delayed Effect ) doubles the number of spells that can be activated at once.

 

I prefer avioding that mechanic if I'm gonna make Delayed Effect a near universal Advatage. It can really muddy the waters badly, depending on how its implemented.

Tho, come to think of it, making it a divisor for the "space" occupied by that spell rather than a multiplier on the number of slots is mechanically identical and easier to "Blend" together. So a Spell with +1/4 delayed effect takes a full slot, one with +1/2 Delayed effect takes a half slot, aka 2 per slot, +3/4 delayed effect gives 4 per slot (or 1/4), etc.

Yeah, it tracks and would work just fine.

 

EDIT: And would also mesh fine with a "Delayed effect is free" structure, where all spells are considered to get the first "level" of delayed effect as a +0. A wonderful way to add expertise to a particular spell.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

See, I never liked the whole 'Delayed Effect' thing -- that strikes me still as unnecessarily complex, although I grasp the mechanic, I think it was just gotten too in a kludgey manner.

 

Why I eschew that whole design.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

Nice' date=' but unnecessary. According to [i']Hero 5th[/i], page 164, Delayed Effect, buying an additional +1/4 (on all spells with Delayed Effect ) doubles the number of spells that can be activated at once.

This does have a few problems and caveats:

 

1) It only affects Spells with the Delayed Effect Advantage, not off-the-cuff Constant and Instant Powers. If you have INT 15 you can have a CE, a Force Wall, and a Power Defense spell, but you can't add an attack or movement spell, any further defensive spells, or anything else.

 

2) As AmadanNaBriona pointed out, you have to apply it to the Spells themselves.

 

3) Also as AmadanNaBriona mentioned, this method still can still work with the "Spell Slot" Talent; just say that any Spell with that additional +1/4 only takes up a "half slot."

[The Souljourner]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

how to nearly-perfectly emulate what I wanted

...

I don't use the slot system

 

I'm curious, what system do you use?

[Basil]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

I prefer avioding that mechanic if I'm gonna make Delayed Effect a near universal Advatage. It can really muddy the waters badly, depending on how its implemented.

Tho, come to think of it, making it a divisor for the "space" occupied by that spell rather than a multiplier on the number of slots is mechanically identical and easier to "Blend" together. So a Spell with +1/4 delayed effect takes a full slot, one with +1/2 Delayed effect takes a half slot, aka 2 per slot, +3/4 delayed effect gives 4 per slot (or 1/4), etc.

Yeah, it tracks and would work just fine.

 

EDIT: And would also mesh fine with a "Delayed effect is free" structure, where all spells are considered to get the first "level" of delayed effect as a +0. A wonderful way to add expertise to a particular spell.

 

Consider this stolen! Marvelous idea!

[Basil]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

This does have a few problems and caveats:

 

{snip}

 

2) As AmadanNaBriona pointed out, you have to apply it to the Spells themselves.

True, though his method allows you to decide which. if any, spells get the extra +1/4 (or more). The book-standard method requires the +1/4 (or more) to be applied to all spells. That's why I like his idea so much.

 

3) Also as AmadanNaBriona mentioned' date=' this method still can still work with the "Spell Slot" Talent; just say that any Spell with that additional +1/4 only takes up a "half slot."[/quote']

 

Hmm. I don't get that from my reading of what he wrote. You may be right, and he did mean that. In either case, yes you could do it that way, but I still don't see the "spell slot talent" as necessary.

 

YMMV.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

Consider this stolen! Marvelous idea!

Thank You. I like it too

 

True' date=' though his method allows you to decide [i']which[/i]. if any, spells get the extra +1/4 (or more). The book-standard method requires the +1/4 (or more) to be applied to all spells. That's why I like his idea so much.

Exactly. The requirement that you must upgrade the advantage on all Delayed Effect spells in order to increase the available slots annoyed me. This fixes that.

 

Hmm. I don't get that from my reading of what he wrote. You may be right, and he did mean that. In either case, yes you could do it that way, but I still don't see the "spell slot talent" as necessary.

 

YMMV.

Could work either/or. Both are legal builds, IMO, and aren't mutually incompatible. Both together could work if one was trying to go for the D&D "feel". I wouldn't combine the "Divisor" method Delayed Effect with the Talent based Divisor on INT spell slot system however, without a fair bit of feildtesting to get a good set of working benchmarks. It still might work, but could end up with a system very reminiscent of the source, where higher level mages can be walking encyclopedias of prehung spells.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: New Talent: Spell Slot

 

In either case, yes you could do it that way, but I still don't see the "spell slot talent" as necessary.

 

YMMV.

YMMV is right. If you don't like to use the "spell slot" system, then don't, and have fun. This is meant for those who do use it.