Lord Mhoram Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds That's just 20 good guys off the top of my head. I could probably double that in villains off the top of my head as well. Yeah. But the homages I see in the HERO stuff is a step back from the character, whereas a number of them in M&M are taken directly (the daughter of Talia and Bats for example). Dr Destroyer is a Doom clone, but he doesn't do magic, or run his own country. That to me is a bit of the difference. But as you said it is subjective. And even if I am annoyed at the M&M homages (which is a very minor thing) - one of the greatest characters I ever read was in there. Daedalus - I mean how cool is it that the the powered armor/gadgeteer is an immortal greek legend. So you have a mix of mythology and Tech for plotlines and hunteds. I love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrooveD70 Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Have you looked much at the Champions universe? If Dr. Destroyer wasn't a Dr. Doom copy do you think anyone would still be talking about him 25 years later? Same for Grond and so many others. Copycat characters are what make 4 color gaming [which is what the CU is] interesting. I agree mitchell. I think the best settings for Supers are homages to the comics we grew up with. I know it is a contradiction, but If I am playing Fantasy Hero and someone shows up with a Drizzt rip off I roll my eyes, but in Champs, I am perfectly ok with a Spider-man ripoff.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrooveD70 Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds As for who's a better writer, that's subjective and doesn't matter. As for homages, you mustn't have been paying attention. Homage lists have been posted to these boards at least 3-4 times. Defender: Ironman Nighthawk: Batman Sapphire: Dazzler Dr. Siverback: Beast Kinetik: Flash Star*Guard: Green Lantern Corp Fabulous Five: Fantastic Four Amazing Man I: Mr. Fantastic Diamond: Thing Kid Chameleon: Beast Boy UNTIL: SHIELD Robert Caliburn: Constantine MeteorMan: Golden Age Green Lantern Brin Rei Tam: Abin Sur Nightwind: Nighthawk I always thought Nightwind was like Iron Fist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Cermak Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds That's just 20 good guys off the top of my head. I could probably double that in villains off the top of my head as well. Freedom City has that beat, despite drawing from a significantly smaller pool of characters. Centurion: Superman Lady Liberty: Wonder Woman Johnny Rocket: Flash Dr. Metropolis: Swamp Thing Pseudo: Martian Manhunter Star Knights: Green Lanterns Bowman: Green Arrow Arrow: Speedy Raven: Batman Sea King: Aquaman Nereid: Aqualad Scarab: Dr. Fate White Lion: Black Panther Megastar: Captain Marvel Lantern Jack: The Spectre, by way of The Hanged Man Eldrich: Dr. Strange Sonic: Static Atom Family: Fantastic Four Midnight: Dr. Mid-Nite Freedom Eagle: Hawkman Envoy: Wonder Woman Patriot: Captain America Zandar: Tarzan, by way of Ka-Zar Those are just heroes, and just the ones with write-ups. There are more homage heroes in the timeline and glossary. And that's giving them the benefit of the doubt on some borderline cases, like Daedalus/Iron Man, Black Avenger/Black Lightning, and Captain Thunder/Electro-Superman. The villains aren't any better. As an example, take the book Time of Crisis. One group of villains? Note for note copies of Flash's Rogues Gallery. Another? Copies of DC's Freedom Fighters, reimagined as alternate universe Nazis. The last is a bunch of super-powered apes led by a Gorilla Grodd homage. I like homages in moderation. Freedom City is homage laden. I'd rather just game in a published comic book universe than saturate a supposedly original setting with winks and nods. They even have an homage to Vibe. Vibe. That said, the books do have great production values and good writing, and if you're someone who wants a lot of homages, well, look no further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Andy is Hero's art director. He speaks artistese. oops, sorry Andy. I thought DOJ was all writers and editors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperKlaus Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds You guys sure you're looking at homages / rips instead of characters who're simply the same archetype? I don't know M&M all that well besides noticing some blatant references in the beginning of the core book, but regarding Champs, what makes Defender an Iron Man clone? Armor? Money? A guy can't have armor and money without being Iron Man? I get that he's also involved in business and has some arms dealer's guilt, but the Harmon doesn't feel like Stark to me. Has no dependency on his armor, is less involved in his business dealings, really more like Captain America than Iron Man in outlook. As I understand it from what little I've read, M&M's problem is that it's very direct. I hear a weapons contractor who built armor to save himself while his (kidneys) were failing and he was captured by (African Islamists) would be no surprise in an M&M book. And just to emphasize that I'm not intending to strongly bash M&M here I'll agree that Nighthawk is a lame Batman and the Fabulous Five are about as obvious as things get. I'm saying I hear M&M is very direct more often than HERO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds I tend to agree that I don't feel Defender is really that like Iron Man or Sapphire is like Dazzler. If anything they are both rather generic archetypes-- Defender's a Powersuit Brick and Sapphire's an Energy Projector. Nighthawk definitely == Batman though. I get a little vibe of Colossus from Ironclad. It's the metal body thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardinal Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Back to the original topic of thre thread, I would like to add my voice to the mutlitude that think some of the M&M source materials are high quality. I only have Freedom City, but I think it is great. I love the 4 color Justice League vibe of the setting. I was inspired enough by the setting that I am playing a Captain Thunder legacy character in a PBEM campaign. I also think the production values in their books are great... great art, color layout, etc. I would also like to echo the statement that Daedalus is one of coolest character concepts that I have seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrooveD70 Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds I like homages in moderation. Freedom City is homage laden. I'd rather just game in a published comic book universe than saturate a supposedly original setting with winks and nods. You know I have no logical reason for this, but I have never really wanted to game in the DC or Marvel universe. For some reason I would feel like I was handcuffed to the setting. If the players began to outshine say the Justice League it would feel weird. But the "wink and nod" homages work well for me. They create the right feel and allow the PC's to be the center of the story. The only way I would be enthusiastic about a Marvel or DC game would be for a one shot or mini campaign that used existing Marvel or DC Characters as PC's. Call me weird. I thought the homages in Freedom City were kewl. That setting would be my second choice next to the CU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Hercules Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Your not weird, Groove, I feel the same way. I could never get into the Marvel or Dc RPGs because of that. ( And even Star Wars to some extent). But give me a CU or a FCU (Freedom City Universe) and its all okay. Oh, and the M&M books are a great source to swipe from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds YOu just feel constrained if you use the real characters but with winks and nods you can actually have lots of things happen. Sometimes they start out as "Superman" or "ironman" but become something quite different after some play time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmetahuman Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds You know I have no logical reason for this, but I have never really wanted to game in the DC or Marvel universe. For some reason I would feel like I was handcuffed to the setting. If the players began to outshine say the Justice League it would feel weird. But the "wink and nod" homages work well for me. They create the right feel and allow the PC's to be the center of the story. The only way I would be enthusiastic about a Marvel or DC game would be for a one shot or mini campaign that used existing Marvel or DC Characters as PC's. Call me weird. I thought the homages in Freedom City were kewl. That setting would be my second choice next to the CU. I feel the same way. Maybe because I'd be certain that one if not most of the other players would be more up on their MU/DCU history than I was. "Come on, everyone knows Doctor Doom is helpless against dental floss!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds I feel the same way. Maybe because I'd be certain that one if not most of the other players would be more up on their MU/DCU history than I was. "Come on, everyone knows Doctor Doom is helpless against dental floss!" I pretty much agree that I wouldn't want to play in a pure Marvel or DC campaign. Still, I love a well done homage character, and the Secret History approach to Superhero universes is my favorite way of building them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrooveD70 Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds I tend to agree that I don't feel Defender is really that like Iron Man or Sapphire is like Dazzler. If anything they are both rather generic archetypes-- Defender's a Powersuit Brick and Sapphire's an Energy Projector. Nighthawk definitely == Batman though. I get a little vibe of Colossus from Ironclad. It's the metal body thing. Good point. If I make a character "Arachno-man" that has spider-man like powers but is a rich tech tychoon like Tony Stark am I ripping off Spiderman Iron or both. Is Tony Stark a Bruce Wayne Rip off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Schultz Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds "Come on' date=' everyone knows Doctor Doom is helpless against dental floss!"[/quote'] "How'd you know? Bullets...my only weakness..." from the BurgerLand scene in Harold and Kumar go to Whitecastle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrooveD70 Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds "How'd you know? Bullets...my only weakness..." from the BurgerLand scene in Harold and Kumar go to Whitecastle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahBody Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Restating what a lot of people have said the Freedom City setting is very well done and loaded with lots of homages (characters and otherwise - The Claremont Academy, frex). The M&M corebook doesn't have any characters or a setting in it, but it does have a bunch of archetypes ('brain in a jar' or 'sinister simian') statted out. There also the Silver Age Sentinels game which has a reasonably complete setting with lots of characters - although there is a fair amount of 'homage overlap'. Plus the D20 system for supers is, um, not to my taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds As for who's a better writer, that's subjective and doesn't matter. As for homages, you mustn't have been paying attention. Homage lists have been posted to these boards at least 3-4 times. Defender: Ironman Nighthawk: Batman Sapphire: Dazzler Dr. Siverback: Beast Kinetik: Flash Star*Guard: Green Lantern Corp Fabulous Five: Fantastic Four Amazing Man I: Mr. Fantastic Diamond: Thing Kid Chameleon: Beast Boy UNTIL: SHIELD Robert Caliburn: Constantine MeteorMan: Golden Age Green Lantern Brin Rei Tam: Abin Sur Nightwind: Nighthawk Prince Marus: Namor Archon: Orion Witness: Phantom Stranger Patriot: Superman/Captain America Vanguard: Superman That's just 20 good guys off the top of my head. I could probably double that in villains off the top of my head as well. So, Fabulous Five and Amazing Man (member of the Fabulous Five) count as two? Oops you got Diamond in there too... Saphire has very little in in connection with Dazzler, aside from Gender and profession, she doesn't even rollerskate. Look As far as I know the CU doens't have shape shifting mentalist aliens, a great hunting cat themed ruler of a technological yet tribal themed african nation, and two sets of FF Clones one heroic (Atom Family) and one evil (The Elements) And, it should be pointed out that just about every powered armor hero can be claimed to be an Iron Man clone, ditto the batman ones. Destroyer is a powered armor master villain; his similarity to Doom ends there. But hey, that's all my opinion; I'm happy you love them so as to defend them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Re: Mutants and Materminds Back to the original topic of thre thread. Yeah, sorry about that. Anyway, like I said: good writing and you probably won't be disappointed. Just wasn't my cup of tea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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