Opposing Magic Systems

[Page Fault]

Hey, all.

 

I've been lurking here for a while, with an off and on post, but finally have something to say! Hooray and... all that.

 

Anyway, I'm preparing to run a Fantasy Hero game which is, basically, post-apocalyptic fantasy. Think something like Valdorian Age meets Dark Sun meets Skyrealms of Jorune and you'll probably be completely off, but that's not important.

 

The main point I'm trying to iron out right now is the two opposing arcane magic schools(as opposed to divine-granted magic), and how to make them feel different.

 

Wizardry is the style that was practiced 'Pre-Cataclysm' days, and is distrusted and feared now. I'd like to represent it as somehow more flexible than Channelling, the other style that is available, but I'm not certain exactly how to go about the differentiation. Channelling makes use of the abundant magical energy available Post-Cataclysm, and is much more structured, and seen as more natural by most of the population(those that can tell the difference, at least)

 

What I already have are the various disadvantages and such that Wizards and Channellers must take, to represent their different societies and structure of teaching. What I don't have are actual rules for the magical systems.

 

One setting-specific item is that areas of varying magical energy are very, very common, ranging from no mana at all to so much that almost everything is exaggerated. The different levels will apply skill roll penalties or bonuses to every type of magic.

 

What I'm considering so far is having Wizardry purchase spells like in TA, Real/3, with an Active Point limit to spells set by a Perk that can be bought. All spells use a single Wizardry skill, though it can be specialized, and can access most of the 'schools' of magic, such as Elementalism and Necromancy and others that I allow. Which ones I allow is a separate issue I'm still considering. The spells will be required to have 3 or 4 modifiers from a list, but different spells can have different modifiers. This is supposed to represent the Wizardry flexibility.

 

Channelling is more focused, and bought in tighter groupings, like Elementalism as one group, but with different skills for Fire, Water, etc. Druidry and others are under consideration, too. For now, I'm using the Grimoire definitions for magic schools. My current idea is that Channellers don't need to buy a Perk, but purchase a Multipower instead. So they have a tighter focus, but potentially more spells within that focus. In addition, the Multipower itself will have a number of modifiers chosen by the character at creation, and all spells will have those modifiers, also less flexible than Wizards.

 

So, I'm mostly asking for opinions. Other considerations are the allowance of an Endurance Reserve... maybe dependent on mana level, or maybe dependent on mana level for one type, but not the other. I've also thought about allowing Channellers to ignore modifiers to a spell at the price of Increased Endurance. But would these be too unbalanced? Am I overthinking the problem?

 

Appreciate any comments in advance. I'll be posting more about the setting as I find the time, if people are interested. I'm also doing a number of prefabs for HDv3, since they seem to be lacking in the area of generic Fantasy armor and weapons and such.

 

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Currently lacking a signature,

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[Killer Shrike]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

I dont have time to get into the specifics of your question right now, but I do have a number of Magic Systems and Magic System related documents on my High Fantasy HERO site.

 

This matrix compares various systems provided on my site and is a good place to start if you are looking for inspiration:

 

Magic System Advisor

[Page Fault]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

Mmm... not quite what I was looking for, unfortunately. But very useful to some, and I'll be able to use quite a bit of it when refining things. Much appreciation sent your way, etc.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

One idea I've been tossing around for a magic system is to make RSR Magic Skill required (not unusual, that) but also requiring the RSR to take the extra -1/4 Opposable Skill roll. This almost incorporates a saving throw/constant mystic struggle feel. I'm thinking kinda like the magic in Zelazny's Changeling & Madwand books where the mages are constantly manipulating the raw magic in the environment to create effects and undo each others work at the same time.

 

Thought the idea might be handy, probably for channeled magic as you described it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

What does the opposed skill roll do? It seems to make it worth a huge amount if it just doesn't cause the spell to go off. Maybe it causes the effect to mistarget slightly, or maybe it causes it to do something similar but different. But paying, let's say, 19 points for Magic Skill at +8 is not a lot of points for what is effectively 100% Damage Reduction, 17-, All Spells

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

What does the opposed skill roll do? It seems to make it worth a huge amount if it just doesn't cause the spell to go off. Maybe it causes the effect to mistarget slightly' date=' or maybe it causes it to do something similar but different. But paying, let's say, 19 points for Magic Skill at +8 is not a lot of points for what is effectively 100% Damage Reduction, 17-, All Spells[/quote']

 

I'm assuming the way it would work is that an opponent channeler gets to "oppose" your Power Skill:Magic:Channeling roll if he has the same skill, using the usual opposed skill rolls. The more he makes his roll by, the greater the penalty you suffer on your roll. Makes Skill levels and their allocation much more important on the magic skill side instead of just CV side. Reversing the order of the rolls would make it more like a D&D saving throw and should probably be a bigger limit.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

One idea I've been tossing around for a magic system is to make RSR Magic Skill required (not unusual, that) but also requiring the RSR to take the extra -1/4 Opposable Skill roll. This almost incorporates a saving throw/constant mystic struggle feel. I'm thinking kinda like the magic in Zelazny's Changeling & Madwand books where the mages are constantly manipulating the raw magic in the environment to create effects and undo each others work at the same time.

 

Thought the idea might be handy, probably for channeled magic as you described it.

 

Kinda like this?

[Kristopher]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

KS, sometimes, I'm utterly amazed at how much work you've put into your material.

[Page Fault]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

Huh. To be honest, when I said 'Opposing' I intended it in a cultural manner, and was mostly wanting a way to differentiate their "feel" without making one overpoweringly more effective than another.

 

That said, the idea that Channelling and Wizardry actively clash with one another when used in proximity has some... interesting implications, and isn't out of line with the description I have already written up on how they both work.

 

It also brings up another thought I need to consider. I have a race with what amounts to Magic Resistance against any sort of magic, which grows stronger in a group. I was going to buy it as a Suppress Magic with some modifiers to only affect the user, and just hand wave the effect of a large number of them creating a magical null zone. But maybe that would best be put into another thread.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

Hmmm. I still think it gives the target a cheap way to avoid the effects of the spell.

 

How about this: situational bonuses and penalties? For instance, the target has a penalty equal to -1 per 10 Active Points in the incoming spell, iff he knows which spell is incoming and he knows the spell (or the "reversed" spell, or a counterspell specific to that spell); either an appropriate Detect or an Analyze Magic roll would be sufficient to determine which spell it is. If one or both of those conditions don't apply, increase the penalty by half for each one that doesn't (thus, if he both doesn't know the spell and doesn't know which spell the attacker is using, his defensive roll is at -2 per 10 Active Points, or -1 per 5; if he can Analyze the incoming spell, he's at -1.5 per 10 Active Points). Using Magic Skill in this way is a defensive combat action (can be aborted to, takes a half-Phase combat action). After all of his penalties, whatever he makes his roll by is applied as an additional penalty to the caster's roll.

 

This is pretty rough, and I haven't read KS's take on it, so forgive me if I'm covering already-trod ground.

[Cantriped]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

I built spell resistance for one of the conversions I was doing as +5 DCV with a few small modifiers. since thats basicly all spellresistance does anyway is allow you to avoid the effects of magic better (and all offencive magic requires an attack roll anyway). If you wanted to make it Cumalative with others, like have a race who's nullifying effect overlaps, then build it like this.

 

Magical Nullification Aura: +1 with DCV, Area Of Effect (16" Radius; +2) (15 Active Points); Only Against Magic (-1), DCV Benefits only [Race X] (-1/4). Real Cost 7 pts.

 

This gives all of their race +1 DCV for every one of them within 16" of them. if you get rid of the last limitations there, then everybody will get a +1 dcv for every one of the race within that radius.

[UltraRob]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

Hey, that's a cool idea! I like that! Get too many of those darn Dark Elves in one place and your ability to cast say, Light Magic, could be extremely screwed or hindered. +1 DCV against attack spells, and -1 to the casting roll for other spells could be a nice way to do it.

 

One mechanics question, though. Wouldn't you need to buy culmulative on the power for it to stack like that?

 

Rob

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

The main point I'm trying to iron out right now is the two opposing arcane magic schools(as opposed to divine-granted magic)' date=' and how to make them feel different.[/quote']

 

Well, I find that one of the best ways to make things feel different is through gameplay rather than the system.

 

You need to think about how they are presented and how the characters in the game would see them as different and then emphasise that to the players. The actual mechanics could be identical but the fact that Wizards use staves while the channellers use crystals could be a major defining point in game.

 

You may find that when you answer the questions above then you may also have answered the game system questions that you may have - one tends to follow the other...

 

Channelling makes use of the abundant magical energy available Post-Cataclysm' date=' and is much more structured, and seen as more natural by most of the population(those that can tell the difference, at least)[/quote']

 

Where does the power from Wizardry come from? If Channellers power varies from mana spot to mana spot and Wizards dont then you have some differentiation there - including flexibility.

 

So' date=' I'm mostly asking for opinions. Other considerations are the allowance of an Endurance Reserve... maybe dependent on mana level, or maybe dependent on mana level for one type, but not the other. I've also thought about allowing Channellers to ignore modifiers to a spell at the price of Increased Endurance. But would these be too unbalanced? Am I overthinking the problem?[/quote']

 

Endurance reserves and tinkering with that kind of stuff can lead to very distictive in game advantages and disadvantages as can environemntal effects allowing (or making) spells to be more/less effective/powerful depending on the mana levels. (You'll find players become very interested in mana levels if you do this so you'd have to be prepared for them wanting to defer combats etc until they can find places rich or poor in mana).

 

 

Doc

[Page Fault]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

I've settled on what I think is a workable system for both Wizardry and Channeling. Maybe one has clear advantages over the other, but I think they're relatively well-balanced. And even if one has an advantage 90% of the time, I'm mostly concerned with flavor, not power.

 

Wizardry draws its power from the surrounding mana, but indirectly. Wizards tap into the mana and store it internally... in other words, not using an Endurance Reserve. They are affected by skill penalties for low mana areas, and can't use magic at all in no mana regions, but their spell costs and such aren't affected by the mana in the area. This grants them an advantage in low mana areas. They have a wide selection of spells, and purchase them like Turokian age, at Real Cost/3. But to buy them, they must buy up a Perk that determines their Active Point limit. This also means that the various spells can have different limitations, while Channelers can't.

 

Channelers on the other hand, do have an Endurance Reserve, but pay extra Endurance and suffer reduced REC when in low mana zones. With a large enough Reserve, the problem can be mitigated a little, but in the lower mana zones Wizards still have a clear advantage. In the high mana areas, Channelers definitely reign, in number of spells they can cast at least. They buy all of their abilities in a Multipower, and have several different disciplines, so have a more restricted spell selection. But for points, a Multipower is a little more efficient in the long run. All spells require the same Limitations, however, since they're in a Multipower(well, they could have /more/ Limitations, but you know what I mean). They can also get rid of some limitations by increasing the Endurace cost.

 

There's a few more complexities, like when it's possible to buy off RSR, and how Wizards make spells, and that sort of thing, but that's the 'meat' of the system.

 

Doc, thanks for the ideas, and katal3, I'm not currently using that, but I'm going to stat out a build that does, and run some quick sample plays with each to see which best gets the effect I want. But I expect some hand waving to go on.

[Cantriped]

Re: Opposing Magic Systems

 

No problem, oh and no , you don't need Cumalative on the DCV since they are skill levels, only powers like Dispel need Cumalative because they do not naturally stack (it's a 'which is strongest takes effect' kinda thing.)

If you apply Always On, making the resistance non-optional, then you should make sure you require that even beneficial spells have to make an 'attack roll' to take effect.