Alternatives to Megascale for movement

[GAZZA]

I'm sure I'm not alone here in thinking that Megascale is perhaps one of the more abusable additions to 5th edition.

 

The thing is, I really believe something like this is needed. All of the supers games I've played have something they do poorly: for DC Heroes, for example, it was the gadget rules. In 4th edition Champions I submit it was movement.

 

The logic is this: buy +5 points of STR, and you're able to lift twice as much. Therefore, that extra +1d6 of punching/grabbing power presumably reflects the ability to punch/squeeze twice as hard. (Back on the old Champions mailing list, the previous statement was second only to the Great Linked Debate in its contentiousness, so to head that off: assume we're talking about some sort of automaton here so that you can't use arguments about different types of muscle groups to explain why that isn't the case). It seems reasonable to suppose, therefore, that a 10d6 Energy Blast is twice as powerful as a 9d6 Energy Blast - it's the same sort of scale as STR, after all.

 

But this all breaks down with movement. Granted that it's fine for noncombat movement (+5 = twice as fast, as required), but why the artificial distinction? The whole concept of noncombat movement is a kludge, in my opinion, and probably inappropriate in the general case - I think if you want the sorts of restrictions that noncombat movement implies, it should probably be reflected with some sort of limitation on the power rather than be a standard feature.

 

If you don't use the optional velocity rules, then Move Throughs and Move Buys don't work properly either (if we're going by "twice as hard = +1d6", then moving twice as fast should give you +1d6, which isn't the case with the standard Move Through rule).

 

I'm wondering whether or not something like the following is a terrible idea:

- Ditch the concept of noncombat movement.

- For 10 points, you get 5" of Flight (the main movement power; substitute as appropriate for others). Assume everyone has 5" of Running for free.

- For +5 points, you double that movement.

 

Costs can be tweaked as necessary. Perhaps you could make it +10 points to double the speed, and introduce a standard limitation "noncombat movement (-1)".

 

In fact, since we have the hood up (as it were), might as well switch to a per Turn buy for movement (so you get 20"/Turn Flight for 10 points instead) to "fix" the "problem" that a higher SPD increases your movement rate.

 

Thoughts?

[MitchellS]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

I'll start by saying that I never bought into the 'double for +5 points' concept. I understand that it had to be done that way to make the strength chart work at a reasonable level but the way +1d6 more damage is handled against the environment does not indicate a doubling of power in any way, IMO.

 

Hero's an old school game that's designed for tactical combats and battlemats. If you make movement powers too expansive you end up moving most combats off the map and into the mind [if your character has 500" of movement he's going to be off the table, out of the room, and probably out of the house let alone off the map ]. There's nothing wrong with having only contained combats on a map [the characters are fighting inside something where they can't use their full movement to their advantage] but I don't think a lot of Hero gamers are prepared to have battles taking place across the state rather then in front of Rosie's. By allowing non-combat speed in the game you're keeping the tactical tactical but allowing the imagination to soar when the situation is generally less critical.

 

My issue with megascale is that it starts at 1 km per inch. I'd rather have seen it be a multiplier of combat movement with a progression of x10, x100, etc. That way the guy with 15" flight and a 5 speed goes from 45 KPH to 450 KPH, then 4,500 KPH, rather then directly to 22,500 KPH.

[Rapier]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

I'm not sure I see where the problem is.

 

Noncombat movement is a focused kind of movement where you ignore all other actions except movement. You are not trying to avoid geting hit. You are not trying to aim at someone. Because you are not worrying about all of those things you can put a lot more effort into a balls-to-the-wall movement effort.

 

If Sgt A lays down covering fire, Cpl B runs noncombat to get from the rock he is hiding behind to the house at the corner so that they can set up a crossfire. Cpl B is only concerned with moving as fast as humanly possible and is relying on Sgt A to keep him from getting hit.

 

Private C is moving towards an enemey position but is on his own (he got separated from his platoon), he is not only firing but trying to avoid being hit. He is not running as fast as he can, since he is concerned with keeping more control of his position and his ability to fire accurately and avoid being hit.

 

Noncombat movement is a necessary part of the game. There are just too many situations where it is appropriate.

 

Could you replace the concept of a NCM with a straight limited purchase (eg +10" Running, 1/2 DCV Concentrate, 0 OCV, etc)? Of course. But why? Why would you remove a deeply ingrained gaming concept only to replace it with another concept? Especially when the original concept is fairly simple and straightforward.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

My issue with megascale is that it starts at 1 km per inch. I'd rather have seen it be a multiplier of combat movement with a progression of x10' date=' x100, etc. That way the guy with 15" flight and a 5 speed goes from 45 KPH to 450 KPH, then 4,500 KPH, rather then directly to 22,500 KPH.[/quote']

 

I believe that the +1/4 level allows anything up to 1 km per inch, so it could be 20 meters per inch. However, once the scale is reduced to the point it's viable in close combat, the ability actually becomes more useful, and probably should cost more.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

...

 

My issue with megascale is that it starts at 1 km per inch. I'd rather have seen it be a multiplier of combat movement with a progression of x10, x100, etc. That way the guy with 15" flight and a 5 speed goes from 45 KPH to 450 KPH, then 4,500 KPH, rather then directly to 22,500 KPH.

 

The system already allows this. It just costs more points.

 

45 3-Speed Manual Transmission Flight: Multipower, 45-point reserve

4u 1) 1st Gear (Combat) & 3rd Gear (Megascale): Flight 15", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages; +1/2) (45 Active Points) - END=4

4u 2) 2nd Gear (Sub-Sonic): Flight 15", x16 Noncombat (45 Active Points) - END=4

[MitchellS]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

I believe that the +1/4 level allows anything up to 1 km per inch' date=' so it could be 20 meters per inch.[/quote']

While that wording's true, that's generally a level of granularity more associated with M&M then Hero. I don't believe there's any other instance where a +1/4 advantage gives you such an expansive range [in that case 3 meters to 1 kilometer]. For example, Hero's granularity is from 12 charges up to 16 charges for +1/4 not 12 charges up to 4,000. Megascale shouldn't be the exception to the granular system, IMO.

[MitchellS]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

The system already allows this. It just costs more points.

 

45 3-Speed Manual Transmission Flight: Multipower, 45-point reserve

4u 1) 1st Gear (Combat) & 3rd Gear (Megascale): Flight 15", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages; +1/2) (45 Active Points) - END=4

4u 2) 2nd Gear (Sub-Sonic): Flight 15", x16 Noncombat (45 Active Points) - END=4

I think my point was about finding a more granular way to hit the difference between the 30" per phase 1st gear, the 240" per phase 2nd gear, and the 7,500" per phase 3rd gear.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

While that wording's true' date=' that's generally a level of granularity more associated with M&M then Hero. I don't believe there's any other instance where a +1/4 advantage gives you such an expansive range [in that case 3 meters to 1 kilometer']. For example, Hero's granularity is from 12 charges up to 16 charges for +1/4 not 12 charges up to 4,000. Megascale shouldn't be the exception to the granular system, IMO.

 

As Hugh already pointed out, smaller granularity is almost too good. Normal ncm doublings would never get used otherwise.

 

There are some real world precidents.

 

The first airplane to break mach 1 had to use rocket engines that had 2 options, ON and OFF. The Space Shuttle relies on a very similar system. The solid boosters provide most if not all of the lifting power and once started don't stop until all the solid fuel is spent. The Shuttle's "main engines" really only provide the variable throttle and direction control necessary for specific orbit insertion.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

While that wording's true' date=' that's generally a level of granularity more associated with M&M then Hero. I don't believe there's any other instance where a +1/4 advantage gives you such an expansive range [in that case 3 meters to 1 kilometer']. For example, Hero's granularity is from 12 charges up to 16 charges for +1/4 not 12 charges up to 4,000. Megascale shouldn't be the exception to the granular system, IMO.

 

As Hugh already pointed out, smaller granularity is almost too good. Normal ncm doublings would never get used otherwise.

 

There are some real world precidents.

 

The first airplane to break mach 1 had to use rocket engines that had 2 options, ON and OFF. The Space Shuttle relies on a very similar system. The solid boosters provide most if not all of the lifting power and once started don't stop until all the solid fuel is spent. The Shuttle's "main engines" really only provide the variable throttle and direction control necessary for specific orbit insertion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

I don't like megascale, but I also don't like big numbers for movement because I am one of those people who actually makes little cut out figures and does 'tabletop battles' for combat (well, often whole room battles, given move rates already).

 

Also not sure how this would work with damage for move throughs and move bys - presumably on the number of doublings rather than total speed/5 or /3?

 

HOWEVER, here's a thought.

 

Combining this idea with the concept of 'move per turn' instead of move per phase COULD work (I have not thought it through). Buy your 5" of flight (which gives you 5" of flight per turn).

 

Double for +5 points.

 

Velocity per phase = Velocity per turn/SPD

 

Damage for move throughs = 1d6+1d6 per doubling

Damage for move bys = 1d6 for one doubling and 1d6 per 2 doublings thereafter.

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

SO, for 10 points you buy 5" flight

 

Then you spend 35 points on doublings, and you wind up with 640" per turn (I'm spotting a problem already....), which for a SPD 5 character is 128" per phase and +8d6 move through damage and +4d6 move by damage.

 

Hmm.

 

Not going to work, I'm thinking.....128" per phase, or a little over 10 and a half feet scale distance - going to need a bigger room....

 

Mind you, for a bit of support for your concept, range modifiers work on doublings too; Hero is a bit confused over these things. I marvel sometimes that it works so well.....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

Sean,

 

What part of non-combat movement are you having a problem understanding?

 

The extra movement whether gained by traditional ncm doublings or megascale is primarily intended as a plot device power to allow characters to get from point A to point B and little else. The rules state that the only way to increase a character's OCV above ZERO while using NCM rates requires some type of GM approval (see animated Justice League battle between Flash and Luther/Braniac for a good source material example).

[GAZZA]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

So basically the reason that movement is restricted is so that it fits on the battlemap?

 

I had a feeling that was going to be the position. But it doesn't really work for me.

 

I should point out right now that I'm using Hero for Champions; if you're playing FH, Star Hero, or whatever, then I doubt there would be much in the way of an effective difference anyway.

 

But so long as we're talking Champions, and as long as we're acknowledging that Flight is going to be the most common movement power (even speedsters typically buy limited Flight instead of Running, after all), then surely the "so it fits on the map" is already suspect? You have two choices when there's height involved: you either start stacking dice underneath your figurine (and hope nobody sneezes), or else you make a rough note next to the figure as to how high he is.

 

If you accept the latter, why not extend that concept to the other two dimensions? There will often be fights contained in buildings and so forth, but if you get the chance to fight in an open plain, why not let the speedsters do what they do best?

 

The reason I dislike noncombat movement is as above - it's a kludge. It's basically there to try and bridge the fact that combat movement is way too expensive to move at superheroic speeds while not allowing fast moving characters to run right off the map. I rarely use maps anyway, so the latter reason is not convincing to me.

 

Sean: as far as Move Through/By damage goes, there was an old velocity based house rule that did the rounds for 4th edition which appears to have been included almost verbatim in the optional rules section of the 5th edition handbook (no idea if it's in Revised or not; I assume so).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

So basically the reason that movement is restricted is so that it fits on the battlemap?

 

 

Huh?

 

Non-Combat movement is just for that.

 

Sure it can be used in combat but the character doing so will have a ZERO OCV regardless of DEX or ANY levels.

[GAZZA]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

Huh?

 

Non-Combat movement is just for that.

 

Sure it can be used in combat but the character doing so will have a ZERO OCV regardless of DEX or ANY levels.

 

You're missing my point. I'm well aware of what noncombat movement is, and I'm well aware that Megascaled movement is also noncombat. What I'm saying is that the entire idea of "noncombat movement" is - IMHO - a kludgy rules construct designed to breach the controllability of movement in combat (so it doesn't leave the map) and the massive speeds of some of the characters in the genre. There's no such thing as "noncombat Energy Blasts" for destroying buildings out of combat, or "noncombat Senses" for seeing further while there's no combat situation occurring - it's only movement that has this funny idea.

 

And yes, of course you can buy extra dice of Energy Blast "Only for use out of combat", or whatever, but that really begs the question of why movement isn't done that way.

 

If a brick must pay +5 points to double his STR, why can't a flying speedster pay +5 points (or whatever number is felt to be balanced) to double his movement? Why is movement on a linear scale when STR (and by implication other attack powers) are exponential? Remember movement is an attack power in the same way STR is - Move By and Move Through ensure that.

[Silbeg]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

Huh?

 

Non-Combat movement is just for that.

 

Sure it can be used in combat but the character doing so will have a ZERO OCV regardless of DEX or ANY levels.

 

And 1/2 DCV.

 

Unless of course, the GM allows the optional velocity based DCV rules.... which you still need to be cooking to get advantage from.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

I guess you've never seen any of the "STR is too cheap" threads.

 

Of all the things that can be done with high movement, adding to HTH damage (in most cases STR based) is the least important. Moveby/Movethrough specialists are just that: Specialists. Most characters use half moves to either close or increase distance between them and their opponent. Make this part too easy and range modifiers and a whole slew of other balanced features of the combat engine that is HERO will begin to break down.

[GAZZA]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

Range modifiers are (as Sean points out) already based on the doubling mechanism, and frankly I strongly disagree that Move By/Move Through are in any way the least important things that can be done with high movement. Most bricks will try it from time to time, at least in my experience. Even if you were right, though, I'm sure you're not suggesting that rules that only break when you actually test them are OK.

 

As far as the "STR is too cheap" threads, that's not by any stretch a new argument, but the way you've presented it above is a straw man. If all STR did was give you extra dice in damage and lifting capacity nobody would complain; the issue is that it gives you 11 points of figured characteristics for every 10 points of STR (excluding the free Superleap).

 

 

Fundamentally: I've played many supers games (as I mentioned at the start of the thread), and Champions is by far the best. However, it is the only such game I've played that felt the need to treat movement in such an artificial manner. If this were the DC Heroes boards and I was complaining about the gadget rules being broken, I wouldn't be accepting arguments along the lines of "but if you let it work all the time it would just completely break the genre", since I know Champions doesn't have that problem. This is the same argument, effectively.

 

HERO is a great system, but if it were perfect we would be on 5th edition revised, right? Nobody seriously believes that 5th edition is the last word, surely? If you don't believe that characters should be able to move really fast with the sort of control combat movement implies, that's fine - we'll agree to differ.

[Warp9]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

Also not sure how this would work with damage for move throughs and move bys - presumably on the number of doublings rather than total speed/5 or /3?

See the optional Velocity Factor rules. They base damage on doublings of Kinetic Energy (which is in line with most firearms).

 

2 X Velocity = 4 X KE

 

Thus 2 X Velocity = + 2 DCs

[Warp9]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

If you don't believe that characters should be able to move really fast with the sort of control combat movement implies' date=' that's fine - we'll agree to differ.[/quote']

I'm on your side of this issue.

 

It has always seemed strange to me that the rules of the game make it easier to have enough STR to lift a planet, than to fly mach 3 in combat.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

The current forumula for Moveby is too powerful (flat -2 OCV) if current NCM-like higher movement rates are allowed without impossing any extra OCV penalty. The optional Velocity Factor rules only exasperate the issue since their use would actually increase* the damage over the traditional Moveby manuever.

 

FYI, the Velocity Factor value (5ER pg 436) is equal to the (relative) Velocity Based DCV value (5ER page 364).

 

*Example:

 

A character with 36" of movement and a 6 SPD will have a VF of 8.

 

Move By Damage is STR/2 + (VF)d6. Move Through OCV penalty is -(VF) and Damage is STR + (VF)d6

 

Disregarding STR for a moment, the traditonal Move By will do +7d6 based on velocity and the optional VF method will do +8d6.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

It has always seemed strange to me that the rules of the game make it easier to have enough STR to lift a planet' date=' than to fly mach 3 in combat.[/quote']

 

The ability to move at mach 3 in combat vs. a human sized target is a game breaker ability. Even the Galactic Champions level characters would not stand up to a Move By that hit. It just generates too much bonus damage.

[GAZZA]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

You're quite possibly correct that some cases of Move By might increase a bit in damage; Move Throughs usually decrease, though, and Move Bys are already (generally speaking) on the low end of most super attacks so an extra d6 here or there is no biggie. Of course if you switch to buying movement powers on a per Turn basis rather than per Phase you can make this go away completely, but that's (to some extent) a separate though related issue.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

You're quite possibly correct that some cases of Move By might increase a bit in damage; Move Throughs usually decrease' date=' though, and Move Bys are already (generally speaking) on the low end of most super attacks so an extra d6 here or there is no biggie. Of course if you switch to buying movement powers on a per Turn basis rather than per Phase you can make this go away completely, but that's (to some extent) a separate though related issue.[/quote']

 

The effect on Move Throughs are irrelevent because the OCV penalty is proportional to the bonus DC's. Move By as it currently stands has no counter balancing feature. A character with 300" of movement only gets a flat -2 OCV doing a Move By and a will do a HUGE amount of damage no matter how you figure it.

[GAZZA]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

The ability to move at mach 3 in combat vs. a human sized target is a game breaker ability. Even the Galactic Champions level characters would not stand up to a Move By that hit. It just generates too much bonus damage.

 

Call it 2000 metres/second, or 500" per second, 6000"/Turn, or a VLF of 17. +17d6 damage on a Move By or Move Through. A lot, but that's not something I would imagine breaks things at a galactic champions scale.

 

The proposed change I'm making would make this cost 10 points for the first 20"/Turn, and you'd need about 8 doublings. So this is a pretty reasonable indication that +5 for doubling the speed might be too cheap; if you make it +10 to double it, then for 90 active points you get about 5000"/Turn Flight that can do +17d6 damage (compare to 90 active points of Energy Blast that does 18d6 damage).

 

Seems workable. Every +10 active points of movement gives you +2d6 from the VLF, which is comparable to the +2d6 you get from attack powers.

 

Now, of course you want to keep an eye on STR here; fast, strong guys are going to be dealing out some pretty good damage. But there are other powers that add to STR damage as well - just make sure you keep the same eye on movement as you would for HA.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

 

Call it 2000 metres/second, or 500" per second, 6000"/Turn, or a VLF of 17. +17d6 damage on a Move By or Move Through. A lot, but that's not something I would imagine breaks things at a galactic champions scale.

 

The proposed change I'm making would make this cost 10 points for the first 20"/Turn, and you'd need about 8 doublings. So this is a pretty reasonable indication that +5 for doubling the speed might be too cheap; if you make it +10 to double it, then for 90 active points you get about 5000"/Turn Flight that can do +17d6 damage (compare to 90 active points of Energy Blast that does 18d6 damage).

 

Seems workable. Every +10 active points of movement gives you +2d6 from the VLF, which is comparable to the +2d6 you get from attack powers.

 

Now, of course you want to keep an eye on STR here; fast, strong guys are going to be dealing out some pretty good damage. But there are other powers that add to STR damage as well - just make sure you keep the same eye on movement as you would for HA.

 

So how do the non-high-movement characters compete?

 

Remember, normaly the VF is going to be equal to the Velocity Based DCV.