Making Growth power Inherent

[Zanslev]

A player in my campaign is creating a summon that will call forth platypus big enough for him to ride (Well, his is insane...). In order to make something big, I add the power growth and give it these advantages

 

Reduced endurance (0 END)

 

Persistant

 

Inherent

 

This adds up to a hefty advantage, but hey, its a huge platypus. It's going to be expensive.

 

My friend argues Inherent merely means that the power cannot be taken away from the creature, and that it can still grow and shrink back at will. Quoting that the definition of inherent begins "this power represents..." instead of "growth represents..."

 

Instead he argues that he should add the disadvantage cannot deactivate. I say this is silly. Can anyone clarify this matter?

[Nevenall]

Re: Making Growth power Inherent

 

There is a power limitation called Always On which means that you cannot turn off the power in question. Your friend is correct. Unless the power has Always On it can be turned on and off at will. Inherent means that the power cannot be taken away using other powers such as Dispel and Drain.

 

I don't have the book here, but it might be the case that you can only take Inherent for powers that have Always On.

 

Also, the usual procedure for building larger then normal characters is to buy the benefits that you get from an equivelent level of Growth. So, your friend's mount would buy +30 STR and +X Body, rather then buying the Growth power itself. I know the revised 5th ed has some templates for large size somewhere.

 

Further, welcome to the boards!

[Simon]

Re: Making Growth power Inherent

 

Well...you're going to get a number of answers on this (many of the debating the logic behind the official ruling within 5th Edition that I'll outline below).

 

The official ruling for 5th edition is that Powers like Growth and Shrinking are for characters that can change their size. If you want the character to just be big or small, you buy the appropriate abilities (increased STR, increased PD/ED, Stretching, etc.) and take the limitations as Disads on the character (Distinctive Feature, Physical Lim: Easier to hit (-X DCV), etc.)

[Zanslev]

Re: Making Growth power Inherent

 

That answers a lot of questions, thank you both. I see how manually simulating large size makes sense, but I will have to get around the lack of structure behind that method. Also, we are trying to work from an old Fourth-Edition book and Heromaker V.2, so there are gaps where 4th Ed. is somewhat vague. (I really should spring for a new updated system)

[Lucius]

Re: Making Growth power Inherent

 

Well...you're going to get a number of answers on this (many of the debating the logic behind the official ruling within 5th Edition that I'll outline below).

 

The official ruling for 5th edition is that Powers like Growth and Shrinking are for characters that can change their size. If you want the character to just be big or small, you buy the appropriate abilities (increased STR, increased PD/ED, Stretching, etc.) and take the limitations as Disads on the character (Distinctive Feature, Physical Lim: Easier to hit (-X DCV), etc.)

 

I don't see the logic behind the official ruling.

 

I say, go ahead and put Always On on Growth. It's the simplest solution.

 

If you want to deal with the added complication, the official rule is figure out what that much Growth gets you, figure out what else you think makes sense for a huge platypus (don't they have venom for example?), and use a physical Disad "Big" that includes all the drawbacks to being big all the time.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Appearing as a DNPC on the Palindromedary's character sheet....

[GAZZA]

Re: Making Growth power Inherent

 

Well... the problem is that if you buy Always On Growth it's more expensive than just buying the benefits unless you're really big.

 

Every size doubling of Growth (0 END Persistent Always On) costs 20 points and gives you 15 points of STR, 3 points of BODY, 3 points of STUN, -3" KB, and x2 Reach. 15 points of STR, 3 points of BODY (which gives you the STUN as well), and 3" of KB resistance costs 27 points - 7 points more - but it gives it you 16.5 extra points of figured characteristics not counting the Leaping bonus (which you don't get with Growth, because your mass has increased) and no penalty to DCV or PER rolls against you. However, high levels of Growth (because of that x2 reach) eventually becomes cost effective since Stretching has a linear cost - however, I think you're looking at somewhere around 60-75 points of Growth before that becomes worthwhile, and that's going to break most campaign limits.

 

Someone who is big is (generally) at a disadvantage compared to someone who is equally strong but small, based on the DCV and PER rolls. It shouldn't cost more to be at a disadvantage, right?

 

Unfortunately the "physical limitation" method is very coarse and doesn't by any means compensate for the DCV loss let alone anything else.

[Marketeer]

Re: Making Growth power Inherent

 

It is possible for the construct of:

 

0 End Persistent Inherent (total +1 1/4), Always On (total -1/2)

 

On Growth to be point-efficient, but only if it is part of an EC that covers a fairly large variety of powers. So, if you wanted to make a "big, dense, and tough" EC , AND the GM was willing to go along with it, you could have a character who was approximately equally point-efficient with someone who simply bought the STR, Knockback Resistance, and so forth.

 

In that respect it is a bit of a kludge; this construct is not book-legal but even at its most munchkinnny it is approximately equal point-efficiency to simply buying STR, Knockback Resistance, and Body, so I do not think GMs would necessarily balk at it.

[GAZZA]

Re: Making Growth power Inherent

 

It is possible for the construct of:

 

0 End Persistent Inherent (total +1 1/4), Always On (total -1/2)

 

On Growth to be point-efficient, but only if it is part of an EC that covers a fairly large variety of powers. So, if you wanted to make a "big, dense, and tough" EC , AND the GM was willing to go along with it, you could have a character who was approximately equally point-efficient with someone who simply bought the STR, Knockback Resistance, and so forth.

Not by any means impossible. However, I would argue that there is a difference between making something point efficient and making something cheap; the former is about how much bang for buck you get per Active Point, while the latter refers to Real Points.

 

In any case, since Growth gives you reach on a doubling scale, there's always a point where it's better:

• 15 points of "Growth the RAW way" is +15 STR, +3 BODY, +3 PD, +3 REC, +10.5 STUN, +3 KB resistance, and +1" Stretching 0 END (+1/2), Always Direct (-1/4), Non NC Stretch (-1/4), No velocity damage (-1/4); this costs 27 points for everything except the Stretching, and 4 points for the Stretching (31 points total).
  
• 15 points of "Growth the Inherent way" is +15 STR, +3 BODY, +3 STUN, -3"KB Resistance, +1" Reach; it costs 22.5 points and you need to spend another 16.5 points on figured characteristics to match the above, so that's 36 points total.

But:

• 75 points of the first method costs 135 points for everything except the Stretching, and then 69 points for the 16" of Stretching (204 points total).
  
• 75 points of the second method costs 112.5 for the Growth and another 82.5 for the extra figured characteristics (195 points total).

Here and onwards Growth Inherent is cheaper thanks to the fact that Stretching costs more than doubling reach does.

[Marketeer]

Re: Making Growth power Inherent

 

Fair enough; I am actually looking more at a hypothetical EC of say Growth, Density Increase, and, uh... Damage Resistance we'll say. (Again, I concede freely that the EC has a decently tight theme, but is not book legal). I have left out special effects in the example below, mostly because the arithmetic is what I am trying to communicate.

 

6 pt. EC: "Built like a Brick"

6A "Tough as a Brick": Damage Resistance for rPD: 12 rED: 12

3B "Heavy as a Brick": 5 pts. Density Increase, 0 End Persistent Inherent, Always On

3C "Big as a Brick... House": 5 pts. Growth, 0 End Persistent Inherent, Always On

 

Slots B and C are each significantly cheaper than 5 pts. of Strength, so you could argue that this is point-efficient and cheap for what you get.

[Mantis]

Re: Making Growth power Inherent

 

...figure out what else you think makes sense for a huge platypus (don't they have venom for example?)...

Males (only) have a spur in their ankle which can kill small animals, but is merely excruciatingly painful for humans.