Ruminations on Skills

[GAZZA]

Just floating an idea here:

• Both Knowledge Skills and Science Skills use the same cost structure.
  
• Both types are "background skills" without any specific effect on play.
  
• Both are INT related

About the only difference is that they are affected by different skill enhancers. That being said - is there a case for unifying them, or is it useful to preserve the distinction?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Prior to 4th edition, the only place Science Skills appeared was in one of the early Champions supplements (where, IIRC, Knowledge Skill never appeared). My group always considered them to be a subset of Knowledge Skills.

[GAZZA]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Yeah, actually I was just reading your page on changes when this idea struck me.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Ahhh, ok.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Science Skills are a combination Knowledge Skill and Professional Skill. For example, KS: Chess lets you know all kinds of facts about chess, but doesn't measure your ability to play the games whereas PS: Chess is your actual ability to play the game. On the otherhand you can use SS: Physics to represent your knowledge of Physics as well as your ability to practically apply that knowledge.

 

Incidentally, if you are planning on having the Scholar skill enhancer apply to both Knowledge Skills and Science Skills, are you planning on doing away with the Traveller enhancer as well since the things you say about Sciene Skills apply to Area and Culture Knowledges as well.

 

Personally, I like the separate Skill Enhancers.

 

Also, I'm not sure what you mean about them not having any specific effect on play. I guess if you're just running a combat game that might be true but I've often found background skills playing a role in games.

[GAZZA]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Incidentally' date=' if you are planning on having the Scholar skill enhancer apply to both Knowledge Skills and Science Skills, are you planning on doing away with the Traveller enhancer as well since the things you say about Sciene Skills apply to Area and Culture Knowledges as well.[/quote']

Were I inclined to merge the two I suspect I would simply remove the concept of Skill Enhancers. I doubt I would miss it that much; if you have lots of Knowledge Skills you can typically get better bang for your buck by merging lots of them and taking penalties than buying them separately (eg you can buy SS: Force Field Physics, SS: Gravitic Physics, and SS: Dimensional Physics - or you could just buy SS: Physics and accept a penalty to the roll, often still working out cheaper for the same effect; I don't consider this a munchkin tactic, as there are several published characters that do something similar).

 

Also, I'm not sure what you mean about them not having any specific effect on play. I guess if you're just running a combat game that might be true but I've often found background skills playing a role in games.

I wasn't intending to suggest they were useless; rather that their effects are not codified the way the "named" skills are (for example, Acrobatics has specific rules on what sorts of things it can do, such that some other rules refer to the requirement of having Acrobatics - this isn't the case with Knowledge Skills or Science Skills since you can't guarantee any two campaigns will have the same list). My point was that changing the rules for Science Skills and Knowledge Skills would have lower impact than changing something like Security Systems or Combat Piloting.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Were I inclined to merge the two I suspect I would simply remove the concept of Skill Enhancers. I doubt I would miss it that much; if you have lots of Knowledge Skills you can typically get better bang for your buck by merging lots of them and taking penalties than buying them separately (eg you can buy SS: Force Field Physics' date=' SS: Gravitic Physics, and SS: Dimensional Physics - or you could just buy SS: Physics and accept a penalty to the roll, often still working out cheaper for the same effect; I don't consider this a munchkin tactic, as there are several published characters that do something similar).[/quote']

 

Much of this depends on how interrelated the character's knowledge skills are and how the player conceives the character's knowledge. For instance, if the character is an expert in Gravitic and Force Field Physics, but does not have the same level of knowlege of Nuclear Physics.

 

But I agree with you to a certain extent and have built characters who are world travelers with things like AK: World; however, if they really only have knowledge of, say, the United States, France, Australia and the city of Hong Kong (based on their background), then taking AK: World gives the character more knowledge than I want them to have.

[GAZZA]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Much of this depends on how interrelated the character's knowledge skills are and how the player conceives the character's knowledge. For instance' date=' if the character is an expert in Gravitic and Force Field Physics, but does not have the same level of knowledge of Nuclear Physics.[/quote']

Yes, true, you lose granularity. I don't think that's too important, but if I'm wrong about that then clearly this approach isn't a good idea.

 

Since 3 skills is the breakeven point for a Skill Enhancer, you could go "SS: Gravitic and Force Field Physics" and "SS: Nuclear Physics" if you wanted to separate the two; assuming you are 2 points better at the first two than the last, and that there's a -2 penalty for a broader skill, you're still better off merging than using a Skill Enhancer.

 

For your example you could probably get away with "AK: Western World" and "AK: Hong Kong" fairly economically.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Yes, true, you lose granularity. I don't think that's too important, but if I'm wrong about that then clearly this approach isn't a good idea.

 

Since 3 skills is the breakeven point for a Skill Enhancer, you could go "SS: Gravitic and Force Field Physics" and "SS: Nuclear Physics" if you wanted to separate the two; assuming you are 2 points better at the first two than the last, and that there's a -2 penalty for a broader skill, you're still better off merging than using a Skill Enhancer.

 

For your example you could probably get away with "AK: Western World" and "AK: Hong Kong" fairly economically.

 

I prefer the granularity so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. In general, I like skills, including background skills, and it's not unusual for me to spend 60-100 points on skills when building a 350 point superhero.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Having not started playing Hero System until early 4th Edition, I've always seen KS and SS as different types of Skills, each doing something different for the character. For example:

 

SS: Physics give you a working knowledge of the science of physics. You know all of Newton's laws, you understand Einstein's work at least a little bit, can you perform experiments to test the laws and theories of physics and you know what the current laws and theories are. You understand the underlying principles of how the universe works (on a non-subatomic scale).

 

KS Physics is different story. You would know all/most of the laws and theories, who came up with them and when, and could even quote a few formulas. You would do really well on a multiple choice physics exam. You would however lack any real understanding of the physical laws or how they work in the "real world". For example, you could also not use your knowledge to figure out why something that seems to defy the laws of physics.

 

 

Note: I make sure any real scientist I make has both the SS and any applicable KS for what he's a scientist of, as well as a KS: The Scientific World.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

As RJCurrie pointed out, SS are a step between PS and KS.

 

Beyond that, they are really a specialized type of KS.

 

You have

KS - General information

SS - Scientific knowledge & Application

AK - Landmarks, layout, getting around

CuK - Customs, habits, etc...

PS - Practical application

 

Given:

PS: Physicist (you have some solid understanding of physics, this is the guy leading the reseatch team possibly)

KS: Physics (you got some idea what's going on, you probably know some deal of theoretical knowledge, you're a lab worker)

SS: Physics (you have both a solid grasp of physics, and how to apply it, you're probably the lead researcher but leave getting money to PS: Physics guy)

 

Each has an overlapping application, though they have areas where each is stronger than the other.

 

As another example:

KS: Hudson City (you know landmarks, some history, major streets, political bodies)

AK: Hudson City (you know landmarks, streets, fastest routes, major and minor streets)

CuK: Hudson City (you know the neighborhoods, gang territories, local hangouts possibly, major streets people use)

 

CuK and AK is are more specialized version that broadens knowledge in a few areas.

 

Basic KS could be considered a breadth of knowledge, but sometimes details that others with more specific knowledge skills catch.

 

The Ultimate Skill has information on expanding and collapsing the various backgrounds skills. I'd recommend picking that up.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Given:

PS: Physicist (you have some solid understanding of physics, this is the guy leading the reseatch team possibly)

KS: Physics (you got some idea what's going on, you probably know some deal of theoretical knowledge, you're a lab worker)

SS: Physics (you have both a solid grasp of physics, and how to apply it, you're probably the lead researcher but leave getting money to PS: Physics guy)

 

Each has an overlapping application, though they have areas where each is stronger than the other.

 

I do things a little differently.

 

PS: Physicist gives you the ability to perform worthwhile experiments, ask thought provoking questions about physics of yourself and others, know how to run a physics lab, contact other physicists, know the various roles of certain people in a physics department and so on. It does not give you any knowledge, practical or otherwise, of physics.

KS: Physics gives you all that stuff I said above. You could probably work as a researcher in a physics department or possibly as a physics or science teacher at the high school level.

SS: Physics give you all that stuff I said above. You are an actual scientist and do actual science stuff.

[GAZZA]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

In any case you guys have answered my question: there's a distinction that is worth preserving. And I'll have to keep in mind next time I create a scientist character to make sure he has appropriate KS as well.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

In any case you guys have answered my question: there's a distinction that is worth preserving. And I'll have to keep in mind next time I create a scientist character to make sure he has appropriate KS as well.

 

And a lab. Don't forget all real scientists have a lab. And a really hot & nerdy assistant.

[Gemphyre]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

As RJCurrie pointed out, SS are a step between PS and KS.

 

Beyond that, they are really a specialized type of KS.

 

You have

KS - General information

SS - Scientific knowledge & Application

AK - Landmarks, layout, getting around

CuK - Customs, habits, etc...

PS - Practical application

 

Given:

PS: Physicist (you have some solid understanding of physics, this is the guy leading the reseatch team possibly)

KS: Physics (you got some idea what's going on, you probably know some deal of theoretical knowledge, you're a lab worker)

SS: Physics (you have both a solid grasp of physics, and how to apply it, you're probably the lead researcher but leave getting money to PS: Physics guy)

 

Each has an overlapping application, though they have areas where each is stronger than the other.

 

 

I have a similar way to break things down in the real world. (Ooo! Eeek!)

 

SS: Theorist - the guy that comes up with the new ideas for how things work. Does the small scale experiments, but does not worry too much about how to apply the knowledge.

 

PS: Engineer - This is the guy that takes theorist's ideas and creates practical applications for them. He does not necessarily make the group breaking discoveries, but he does get them into a mass-producable form for the market, as well as figuring how to mass produce them in some cases.

 

PS: Technician - This is the guy that takes the design that the engineer created and either implements it or, more likely, fixes it. He often knows how it works in the real world, but does not necessarily have the knowledge to design it from scratch.

 

KS: Student or Amateur Scientist - This person knows quite a lot about the theory of how the things work, but not enough to come up with new viable theories, nor is the person necessarily competent in in fixing items in the KS area. Note: If the KS is combined with either SS or PS above, assume far more in depth knowledge than the KS alone.

 

 

Note that these areas overlap as well. A theorist needs some knowledge of application to test his designs and theories before he publishes them. The Engineer needs knowledge of the science behind the theory in order to implement the design, and knowledge of the practical design in order to create it. The technician needs passing knowledge of the theory in order to understand the design, as well as how to properly test the design in order to fix it. A person with only a KS in a science probably knows or is learning what is needed in order to be effective as a technician, but does not have the depth of skill yet.

 

Admittedly, this is somewhat sloppy, and there are a number of grey areas. But then, that is the real world for you. Besides, as I said, this is more of a personal outlook and philosophy based on personal experience as a student, amateur scientist, Navy Avionics technician, and profession Software Engineer, and how those things mess and overlap.

 

Gemphyre

[Gemphyre]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

And a lab. Don't forget all real scientists have a lab. And a really hot & nerdy assistant.

 

Of the appropriate gender and orientation, as well as being single and available, of course.

 

Gemphyre

[rjcurrie]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Of the appropriate gender and orientation, as well as being single and available, of course.

 

Gemphyre

 

My longest-played scientist superhero (a version of Rick Davies the Resilient Rubber-Man) ended up marrying his lab assistant.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Another thing to keep in mind is as we've all presented the basic breakdown as the Norm for Hero Skills, it's also a middle ground.

 

For most games you only need one of the three types depending on your Character's focus. Most of the time you won't need KS: Physics and SS: Physics do to all the in game stuff.

 

If you want Cinematic Skills, which is to say skills happen but they're an aside or possibly a background element that rarely if ever comes up or a small amount of skill goes a long way, only one is needed to get the benefits of all three.

 

If you want Detailed Skills then one or more would be a good idea as skills will not only play a large or important part but the level of each skill and what they provide becomes important. Skill Synergy can be well simulated in this type of game; a Character with KS: Physics and a Character with SS: Physics can together overcome what only one could alone.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ruminations on Skills

 

Of the appropriate gender and orientation, as well as being single and available, of course.

 

Gemphyre

And obviously in love with the scientist, though the scientist will be too absorbed in his work to notice.