New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

[schir1964]

Gradual Activation

Gradual Activation represents abilities that takes a minimum of one turn to activate or reach full effect. The character may use any portion of the power that is available as the power slowly builds up to full effect. Thus this limitation should not be used with powers that have a fixed effect at a fixed active point value (such as Desolidfication). If used with Instant powers this limitation has the effect that the full effect may not be used until a full turn has passed after which they can use the power at full effect once.

 

The Limitation value is derived from two components (Speed and Active Points).

 

Speed

• 12 SPD: -0
  
• 11 SPD: -0
  
• 10 SPD: -0
  
• 09 SPD: -0
  
• 08 SPD: -0
  
• 07 SPD: -1/4
  
• 06 SPD: -1/4
  
• 05 SPD: -1/4
  
• 04 SPD: -1/4
  
• 03 SPD: -1/2
  
• 02 SPD: -1/2
  
• 01 SPD: -3/4
  

Active Points

• 05 AP: -1
  
• 10 AP: -3/4
  
• 15 AP: -1/2
  
• 20 AP: -1/2
  
• 25 AP: -1/2
  
• 30 AP: -1/2
  
• 35 AP: -1/2
  
• 40 AP: -1/2
  
• 45 AP: -1/4
  
• 50 AP: -1/4
  
• 55 AP: -1/4
  
• 60 AP: -1/4
  
• 65+ AP: -0
  

 

Gradual Activation (Varies: Speed + Active Points)

 

If anyone thinks these values are way off, let me know what they should be and I'll change them.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Gemphyre]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

Gradual Activation

Gradual Activation represents abilities that take extended time to activate or reach full effect. The Limitation value is derived from two components (Speed and Active Points).

 

Speed

• 12 SPD: -0
  
• 11 SPD: -0
  
• 10 SPD: -0
  
• 09 SPD: -0
  
• 08 SPD: -0
  
• 07 SPD: -1/4
  
• 06 SPD: -1/4
  
• 05 SPD: -1/4
  
• 04 SPD: -1/4
  
• 03 SPD: -1/2
  
• 02 SPD: -1/2
  
• 01 SPD: -3/4
  

Active Points

• 05 AP: -1
  
• 10 AP: -3/4
  
• 15 AP: -1/2
  
• 20 AP: -1/2
  
• 25 AP: -1/2
  
• 30 AP: -1/2
  
• 35 AP: -1/2
  
• 40 AP: -1/2
  
• 45 AP: -1/4
  
• 50 AP: -1/4
  
• 55 AP: -1/4
  
• 60 AP: -1/4
  
• 65+ AP: -0
  

 

Gradual Activation (Varies: Speed + Active Points)

 

If anyone thinks these values are way off, let me know what they should be and I'll change them.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Honestly, this sounds like a more complex version of the Extra Time limitation. Other than the point values, how does the mechanic of this limitation differ from Extra Time? In fact, what are the exact mechanics of this limitation?

 

Also, as a note, AFAK, there are no limitations or advantages in Hero that are dependent on the active points of a power that it is being attached to for the value of the limitation. A few are dependent on the relative levels of the powers, such as linked, but none the actual active point values. Why are you using this mechanic?

 

Gemphyre

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

The system already has this.

 

It's called Gradual Effect Limitation (5ER p296)

 

While normally applied to Attack Powers, there's no reason you can't apply it to other types of Powers to achieve a similar effect.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

Honestly, this sounds like a more complex version of the Extra Time limitation. Other than the point values, how does the mechanic of this limitation differ from Extra Time? In fact, what are the exact mechanics of this limitation?

 

Also, as a note, AFAK, there are no limitations or advantages in Hero that are dependent on the active points of a power that it is being attached to for the value of the limitation. A few are dependent on the relative levels of the powers, such as linked, but none the actual active point values. Why are you using this mechanic?

 

Gemphyre

Not quite the same as Extra Trime.

 

I've added more explanation to the description above.

 

1) Extra Time prevents you from using the power at all until the required time has passed (on/off switch with a delay).

2) This is geared more for Constant/Persistent powers that have rheostat type switch instead of an on/off type switch.

 

Does this help?

 

I'm just codifying an idea from another thread.

 

- Christopher

[Black Rose]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

So the idea here is that, as Force Wall Man (SPD 3) you power up your 15 DEF Force Wall (which takes a minute to bring up all the way), you get 1 DEF per Phase?

 

Huh.

 

Actually, I can see that being kind of useful, in certain situations.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

The system already has this.

 

It's called Gradual Effect Limitation (5ER p296)

 

While normally applied to Attack Powers, there's no reason you can't apply it to other types of Powers to achieve a similar effect.

 

Yah...like this...

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

Yah...like this...

You example simplifies down to this specific build up formula:

62 (Active Points) / 6 (Number Of Turns) = 10 Points Per Turn

 

That's fine and dandy.

 

What if I want to have that exact same Power build up at 20 Active Points Per Turn?

How about 5 Active Points Per Turn?

15 Active Points Per Turn?

 

The Gradual Effect Limitation specifically states that the Active Points are proportioned over the time duration one step down.

The alternative rule above doesn't care about setting the time duration in stone, the power builds up whenever the max Active Points are reached, which is determined by the character's speed and the active points specified to accrue each turn.

 

See the difference.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

Yah...like this...

 

While the character alone was cool - the Powerman 5000 reference gets Rep.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

You example simplifies down to this specific build up formula:

62 (Active Points) / 6 (Number Of Turns) = 10 Points Per Turn

 

That's fine and dandy.

 

What if I want to have that exact same Power build up at 20 Active Points Per Turn?

How about 5 Active Points Per Turn?

15 Active Points Per Turn?

 

The Gradual Effect Limitation specifically states that the Active Points are proportioned over the time duration one step down.

The alternative rule above doesn't care about setting the time duration in stone, the power builds up whenever the max Active Points are reached, which is determined by the character's speed and the active points specified to accrue each turn.

 

See the difference.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

So instead of reworking the existing Limitation to fit your needs (which is easily done - just say "Define the Gradual Effect Duration") you want to make a completely new, but nearly identical, mechanic?

 

that makes no sense.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

So instead of reworking the existing Limitation to fit your needs (which is easily done - just say "Define the Gradual Effect Duration") you want to make a completely new, but nearly identical, mechanic?

 

that makes no sense.

Well, since you seem to think reworking the existing limitation is so simple, why don't you post how it works for me here. I'd like to see how you work out the various limitation values based on the number of active points per turn buildup.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

Well' date=' since you seem to think reworking the existing limitation is so simple, why don't you post how it works for me here. I'd like to see how you work out the various limitation values based on the number of active points per turn buildup.[/quote']

 

The general rule for sliding scale limitations is that you take the limitation that's closest to your SFX without going over. For example, we have Extra Time - 1 day and Extra Time - 1 week, which I believe are 1/4 difference. If my Spell of the Trio requires 3 days' time, I get the same limitation as Extra Time - 1 day.

 

It would seem easy enough to determine that a 75 AP power that activates at 20 AP per turn requires 3.75 turns, or 45 seconds. Gradual Effect - 45 seconds is a greater period than one turn and less than one minute, so you get the one turn limitation value.

 

If the time prriods are separated by more than 1/4, I'd be inclined to let you have an extra 1/4 llimitation, since you're more than 2/3 of the way (33 seconds vs 15 seconds) from a turn to a minute.

 

In case it's not clear, I agree with GA (who I can't REP at this time) that there's neither a need nor any real value in creating an all-new mechanic to deal with this, and especially not one that doesn't price out appropriately compared to existing powers.

 

Let's apply your limitation to Force Fields of two characters. One has a +5/+5 Force Field that takes a turn to build up to full strength. He has a 5 SPD. So that's -1/4 for SPD and -3/4 for building up at 10 AP per turn. That's a -1 limitation. That's a lot more than the limitation for Extra Time - 1 turn, only to activate, and the higher limitation value limits the power no more than the lower limitation. It may be less so - shouldn't he get 1 PD/ED per phase?

 

Now let's move to a second character, who has all the same stats, except he has a +25/+25 Force Field. He gets the same -1 limitation, but he requires a full minute to get his force field up to full power. Is that equally limiting to requiring only one turn? I think it's more limiting, and merits a higher limitation - just like Extra Time - One Minute, or Gradual Effect - 1 Minute are higher limitations than 1 Turn.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

Hugh covered it nicely.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

The general rule for sliding scale limitations is that you take the limitation that's closest to your SFX without going over. For example, we have Extra Time - 1 day and Extra Time - 1 week, which I believe are 1/4 difference. If my Spell of the Trio requires 3 days' time, I get the same limitation as Extra Time - 1 day.

 

It would seem easy enough to determine that a 75 AP power that activates at 20 AP per turn requires 3.75 turns, or 45 seconds. Gradual Effect - 45 seconds is a greater period than one turn and less than one minute, so you get the one turn limitation value.

So now you can have two character's one powers up at 2 Turns and one Powers up at 5 Turns and they get the same limitation value.

 

As Ghost Angel says, this makes no sense.

 

If the time prriods are separated by more than 1/4' date=' I'd be inclined to let you have an extra 1/4 llimitation, since you're more than 2/3 of the way (33 seconds vs 15 seconds) from a turn to a minute.[/quote']

So now I have to figure out 2/3rds for each time step to add another limitation value.

 

Yeah. I'll stick with my construct. I never said anyone had to use mine or that mine was better than anyone's else's.

 

If that works for you, great. I personally find this construct easier to deal with for my games.

 

Good Gaming

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

Hugh covered it nicely.

Yep, he did.

 

I think we're done here.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

So now you can have two character's one powers up at 2 Turns and one Powers up at 5 Turns and they get the same limitation value.

 

It's like anything with increments over 1 in the game.

 

You pay 1 pt for every full 5 pts in, for instance, Multiform.

 

Whether you take only 2 of those points or all 5 you pay that full point increment.

 

If my Multiform Character is 373 points your Power Cost is 75pts. Even if you don't use that full 5 points (you only used 3), you pay for all 5.

 

Limitations work the opposite way - if you don't go up to the next step (1 Turn - 1 Minute) you get the lower of the two values.

 

So yes - it is the same Limitation value if you take 1 Turn or 5 Turns, until you reach that 1 Minute level then it bumps up to the next Limitation value.

 

And you know - sometimes a concept just calls for that extra few Turns without MORE savings that are - in my opinion Completely Unwarranted.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

So now you can have two character's one powers up at 2 Turns and one Powers up at 5 Turns and they get the same limitation value.

 

As Ghost Angel says, this makes no sense.

 

Sure it does - that kind of thing is all over in the system - charges are a big example 17 charges is the same value as 32. Or in the extra time limi - 2 minutes and 5 minutes are the same. 2 turns and 5 turns (1 minute) are the same limitation value.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Gradual Activation

 

It's like anything with increments over 1 in the game.

 

You pay 1 pt for every full 5 pts in, for instance, Multiform.

 

Whether you take only 2 of those points or all 5 you pay that full point increment.

 

If my Multiform Character is 373 points your Power Cost is 75pts. Even if you don't use that full 5 points (you only used 3), you pay for all 5.

 

Limitations work the opposite way - if you don't go up to the next step (1 Turn - 1 Minute) you get the lower of the two values.

 

So yes - it is the same Limitation value if you take 1 Turn or 5 Turns, until you reach that 1 Minute level then it bumps up to the next Limitation value.

 

Charges are another good example. The limitation for any number of charges from 12 to 15 is -1/4. The advantage for any number of charges from 17 to 32 is +1/4.

 

I believe a 12- and a 13- activation are both a -3/4 limitation.

 

And schir1964's proposed construct doesn't avoid this issue. SPD 4, 5, 6 and 7 all get a -1/4 limitation, and a power building up at 6 or 8 AP per turn presumably gets the same limitation as a power building up at 10 AP per turn.

 

In a game which adopted this construct, players would get the biggest benefit by placing the limitation on very small AP powers, which will power up in a turn with a much bigger limitation than a power that requires a turn to activate based on the Extra Time limitation.