Thoughts on SPD

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Actually, 42 - 15 = 27. This is probably still enough to Stun the typical Martial Artist, however. That's the key to me. If the MA gets hit, even once, the battle is probably over for him. Once he's stunned, he becomes very easy to take out.

 

 

 

This is rarely the case in my experience. A long time MA player, I can remember several occasions where the GM gleefully announced that he'd defied the odds; hitting and stunning my character. The sequence that followed was usually something like this.

 

Me- Recover from being stunned. Abort my next phase to block, dodge or whatever was appropriate. Eventually catch back up due to higher Speed and renew my whittling down of the brick.

 

GM-Frown.

 

And this was with a 7 Speed character vs 4 or sometimes 5 Speed opponents. I find it unlikely in practice that a 9 Speed MA who can leak ANY damage through a 4 Speed Bricks defenses will lose to that Brick. And there are certainly many potential mitigating factors that can swing things either way, but consider this.

 

100 mock MA/Brick fights are run. You win a years salary if you correctly guess which one will win the higher percentage, or if it's exactly even. So you try to eliminate your bias and kneejerk reactions and predict the winner based on facts instead of opinions. You may have a preferred character type, but who are you willing to put your money on?

 

In the words of a wise man, 'the race may not always go to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. But that's the way to bet'.

[JmOz]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Obviously you didn't even bother to read the OP. What. A. Surprise.

 

You're far too concerned about "winning" discussions and are projecting your own behavior onto other people. Your conduct in that deleted thread was overtly hostile and utterly reprehensible; and I had the thread deleted because I felt you'd poisoned it beyond salvaging. (The moderator who deleted it asked me if I wanted to file a complaint against you; which he felt would probably have resulted in disciplinary action against you. I declined to do so.)

 

As for SPD/DEX issues, the two of us are simply not going to discuss those any more - period. The subject is closed.

 

let's play nice, takes two to argue and all that jazz

 

but I have to admit that I do feel that checkmate has a problem accepting that his way is not the only way that the game should be played, this is probably an unfair accesment based on my appraisal of the attitude he takes during these conversations, he obviously is very passionet about this aspect of gaming which is a good quality when tempered with understanding and a respect for differences. This is hopefully not viewed as an attack but rather as a personal opinion, if this offends anyone I am more than willing to delete it and I ask that no one quotes this in case I do delete it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

This is rarely the case in my experience. A long time MA player, I can remember several occasions where the GM gleefully announced that he'd defied the odds; hitting and stunning my character. The sequence that followed was usually something like this.

 

Me- Recover from being stunned. Abort my next phase to block, dodge or whatever was appropriate. Eventually catch back up due to higher Speed and renew my whittling down of the brick.

 

GM-Frown.

 

And this was with a 7 Speed character vs 4 or sometimes 5 Speed opponents. I find it unlikely in practice that a 9 Speed MA who can leak ANY damage through a 4 Speed Bricks defenses will lose to that Brick. And there are certainly many potential mitigating factors that can swing things either way, but consider this.

 

100 mock MA/Brick fights are run. You win a years salary if you correctly guess which one will win the higher percentage, or if it's exactly even. So you try to eliminate your bias and kneejerk reactions and predict the winner based on facts instead of opinions. You may have a preferred character type, but who are you willing to put your money on?

 

In the words of a wise man, 'the race may not always go to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. But that's the way to bet'.

I think your analysis proceeds on the assumption that brick vs MA fights are somehow isolated, but I suspect in game very few of them actually are. Most Champions battles are team vs team or team vs megavillain. MA vs brick; brick can't hit MA? Have teammate energy blaster fire EX or AoE next to brick, doing little or no damage to brick but flattening MA. Next!

 

Predicting who will win over 50% of the time without seeing the specific characters in question is utterly futile. Even with character sheets in front of me, the environment and play styles of the players running both characters has to be taken into account.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

100 mock MA/Brick fights are run. You win a years salary if you correctly guess which one will win the higher percentage' date=' or if it's exactly even. So you try to eliminate your bias and kneejerk reactions and predict the winner based on facts instead of opinions. You may have a preferred character type, but who are you willing to put your money on?[/quote']

 

Provided I get to design both characters and the setting, I'll happily take that bet. As Treb notes, this is a pretty futile approach without seeing the specific characters.

 

Hmmm...to make it more fair, I just pick the setting, the published Brick and the published MA.

[Checkmate]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Obviously you didn't even bother to read the OP. What. A. Surprise.

I read enough to know you made a statement that you couldn't back up, now you're going to try to change tactics and make the argument about something else, again doing exactly what I said you do: Attack me not my position.

 

You're far too concerned about "winning" discussions and are projecting your own behavior onto other people. Your conduct in that deleted thread was overtly hostile and utterly reprehensible; and I had the thread deleted because I felt you'd poisoned it beyond salvaging. (The moderator who deleted it asked me if I wanted to file a complaint against you; which he felt would probably have resulted in disciplinary action against you. I declined to do so.)

First, remember I can't argue with myself. Second, I wouldn't have been the only one to receive action either, believe me I was well prepared for that. If you you didn't delete the thread, I would have been more than happy to show you how all my responses were responses to attacks. I also would have been happy to show you how when asked to back up your position and you couldn't you found some minor side tangent to argue against. During the reverse, when asked to back up my statements and I do, you again go for some minor side tangent instead of attacking the issues. You have NO IDEA how much I wish that thread was still around so I could point out exactly what it's like discussing anything with you ignoring all the major points of my position to find something to attack.

 

As far as winning, well maybe you're just too afraid of losing. I mean why else would you spend 6 paging denying what I'm saying, then admit you do exactly what I was saying you do and only AFTER I pointed that out did you have the thread deleted.

 

As for SPD/DEX issues' date=' the two of us are simply not going to discuss those any more - period. The subject is closed.[/quote']We don't ever have to agree on it. You just immediately assume that I'm attacking you when I offer a differing opinion. To mis-quote Abraham Lincon (or was it Ben Franklin?): "If you look for the worst in others, you will inevitably find it". You immediately assume I'm hostile and attacking, so you take anything I say that way, regardless of how it was meant. If you would stick to what I'm saying and take emotion out of it, try addressing what my position is, instead of trying to figure out my motivation, we'd probably get along a lot better. If you could stick to what I'm saying. So far you have refuted none of my points (beyond saying I'm hostile) and have backed up none of yours (beyond saying a thread was 3/4 about bricks being too powerful when in actuality it was one post that off handedly mentioned it on a four page thread).

[Checkmate]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

let's play nice, takes two to argue and all that jazz

 

but I have to admit that I do feel that checkmate has a problem accepting that his way is not the only way that the game should be played, this is probably an unfair accesment based on my appraisal of the attitude he takes during these conversations, he obviously is very passionet about this aspect of gaming which is a good quality when tempered with understanding and a respect for differences. This is hopefully not viewed as an attack but rather as a personal opinion, if this offends anyone I am more than willing to delete it and I ask that no one quotes this in case I do delete it.

I have no problems with you saying this, I'm sure if I asked you could and would be able to back up what you're saying with examples. If I asked you to back it up your next post wouldn't be about how I misspelled "asked".

 

I do disagree with your assessment (although who's really in a position to subjectively judge themselves?). It's not so much the topic, it's the way people argue the topic.

 

I get annoyed quickly when people ignore what I'm saying to attack the way I'm saying it. I hate when people make statements and try to pass them off as facts, and when asked to back it up, they can't. When you point out they can't they attack the way you spelled 'can't' or the fact that you like lima beans as if that had any bearing on the subject at all.

 

To give an example, I'm in Killer Shrike's Champ's game. I disagree with A LOT of what he does. Off line, meaning not at the gaming table, we argue all the time (he's GM and will always win at the table. I never argue with a GM. I may state how a rule works to make sure they are aware, but don't argue with what they decide), and we're still friends. It's the way he argues. He makes a statement: It's this way. I say: I think it should be this way because______ and he says, yeah but if I do it this way it accomplishes ________. And that's it. I go on not agreeing, we're still friends because he argues the points, not that since I have a New York accent I must be wrong.

 

So it's not really the issue I'm passionate about, it's the way people argue...Which I guess in the big picture is probably worse

[JmOz]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

I have no problems with you saying this, I'm sure if I asked you could and would be able to back up what you're saying with examples. If I asked you to back it up your next post wouldn't be about how I misspelled "asked".

 

I do disagree with your assessment (although who's really in a position to subjectively judge themselves?). It's not so much the topic, it's the way people argue the topic.

 

I get annoyed quickly when people ignore what I'm saying to attack the way I'm saying it. I hate when people make statements and try to pass them off as facts, and when asked to back it up, they can't. When you point out they can't they attack the way you spelled 'can't' or the fact that you like lima beans as if that had any bearing on the subject at all.

 

To give an example, I'm in Killer Shrike's Champ's game. I disagree with A LOT of what he does. Off line, meaning not at the gaming table, we argue all the time (he's GM and will always win at the table. I never argue with a GM. I may state how a rule works to make sure they are aware, but don't argue with what they decide), and we're still friends. It's the way he argues. He makes a statement: It's this way. I say: I think it should be this way because______ and he says, yeah but if I do it this way it accomplishes ________. And that's it. I go on not agreeing, we're still friends because he argues the points, not that since I have a New York accent I must be wrong.

 

So it's not really the issue I'm passionate about, it's the way people argue...Which I guess in the big picture is probably worse

 

I find when that is the case numbers or lettered lists of arguments (Outline form basicaly) help, as many times it will help the other person see the factors you consider important so they can target those points opposed to minor points used for clarification

[Checkmate]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

You know I got to thinking, I told JmOz who's really in a position to objectively (actually I think I said subjectively, but meant objectively) judge themselves, so I decided to go back over this thread. I read page 7 and I'm sorry, I have to say it's not just me, but again the whole judging yourself, so let me ask, does anyone see what I'm talking about? Look at the posts on page 7:

 

My first post I explain that Treb has gotten the premise of my position wrong, so I explain it to him.

 

He makes a statement, and I ask him to back that statement up with facts.

 

My second post is to ghost-angel so we'll ignore that.

 

Treb's response to my post he asks me what the problem is. It seems as if he's completely forgotten what the entire thread was about, and acting like I started a thread to attack games that have a high speed and DEX. He then accuses me of sniping anyone that does it differently.

 

He then posts this link as the proof I asked for:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58940

 

and says that a third of the thread is laments that bricks are simply too tough.

 

His post starts off completely ignoring the issue we're discussing and tries to make it a personal vendetta.

 

My next post I ask him to point out where I've ever disparaged anyone for doing things differently. He of course ignores this, because you can't produce something that don't exist.

 

I then point out that I skimmed the thread he linked as proof and no where near 1/3 of the posts are about how tough bricks are (in fact the OP is the only one that even comes close to saying that). Beyond exaggerating 1 post of a 4 page thread as "1/3 of the thread" it doesn't even prove what I asked him to. His statement was "And yet in the Champions forum, we have posters complaining that martial artists have little chance against bricks. So clearly your experience is not universal." and the link only talked about MA's once, and it was the OP saying he could have the MA toss the brick around. So the link didn't even support his statement.

 

And his response:"Obviously you didn't even bother to read the OP. What. A. Surprise"

 

Even after re-reading the OP's comments IT DIDN'T SUPPORT HIS STATEMENT!

 

Now I realize that I'm not as P.C. as Trebuchet, and I don't pretend to have the cyber-ethics that everyone so loves to see on message boards, but come on. When you can't back up any of your statements with facts, when you refuse to address the issues, and completely forget what you're discussing, it can't TOTALLY be my fault.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

It's obvious we've got some disconnect here, so I'll be blunt:

 

The only one here who thinks this discussion is some sort of battle to be "won" or "lost" is you. The only one who think you "won" the debate on that deleted thread is you. I have no problem with your position with regard to SPD and DEX; I simply don't agree with it. I do have a problem with your overt hostility and attitude. I do have a problem with your obvious desire to continue that debate on other threads. I don't reject all of your ideas; I've already implemented two changes you suggested in the deleted thread and acknowledged their validity in that thread.

 

This is a discussion about design philosophy on a gaming forum, not geopolitics or a cure for cancer. I don't know why you've decided to make me your current bête noire, and I really don't care. You can continue with your hostility, or you can take a deep breath and realize this is all in your head, not mine.

 

You can calm down, or you can continue your one-sided "war.". I don't care.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

He then posts this link as the proof I asked for:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58940

 

and says that a third of the thread is laments that bricks are simply too tough.

 

At some point (and I'm not interested enough to review the thread and find the posts), it was noted that other threads indicate, in some games, Bricks were the ones considered to hold the advantage, and MA's were perceived as the "too weak to compete" archetype.

 

Someone asked for links to such threads. This "how do I deal with Bricks" post is one such thread.

[Checkmate]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

At some point (and I'm not interested enough to review the thread and find the posts), it was noted that other threads indicate, in some games, Bricks were the ones considered to hold the advantage, and MA's were perceived as the "too weak to compete" archetype.

 

Someone asked for links to such threads. This "how do I deal with Bricks" post is one such thread.

I'll make it easy for ya: This is the statement that I asked him to back up:

And yet in the Champions forum, we have posters complaining that martial artists have little chance against bricks

In the linked thread the OP even states that he knows he can always have a Martial Artist throw the brick around. The rest of the thread goes on to say how easy it is to take out bricks. Tell me how that supports his statment.

 

Treb,

It's not a war, and it's not about winning. You think I am overtly hostile to you, which just isn't the case. You show me 1 personal attack I've made against you that wasn't retalitory. I already know you won't, because you don't back up your statements (whcih is where our problem REALLY lies, not with some DEX/SPD thing).

 

As far as "winning" in the deleted thread: I don't know how else to say this, I said your character looks like points came before concept. You spent 6 PAGES telling me this wasn't true, and in the last post before you had it deleted, you admitted it was true. You admitted you had no idea what the SFX was, and that it didn't matter. You think I'm hostile, you think I'm the one that has to win? You're the one who spent 6 pages denying what you knew was true, just to try to prove I wasn't right. You could have said on page 2 "Yeah, eh I just like playing out the limitation" and boom argument over.

 

So you can blame it all on me, and just chalk it up to me being a jerk if that's what helps you sleep at night, but you may want to take a good look at yourself before you start pointing fingers.

[Vondy]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

I recommend a coffee break. Smoke 'em if you've got 'em.

[Mentor]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

I might give a very slight edge in combat to the Brick. But just barely. Say 55% vs 45% at best. When my super Bricks miss Zl'f and she keeps plinking her 6 or 7 STUN through, they can always knock a wall down on her or toss a bus at her. When the Brick only has to target a hex, super high DEX is more important for that Dive for Cover than for that "unhittable" DC.

 

OTOH, as a GM, if a particular Brick PC is "to tough" to notice the MAs, a little Find Weakness or AP or NND attack modifier evens the scales just fine.

 

Likewise, an MA, such as Zl'f, who is really hard to hit is addressed by CSLs bonusing Grabs or thrown objects making them more dangerous, or as Blackjack has been so adept at in our campaign, using Damage Shields to make a low defense PC like Zl'f hurt herself as bad as the baddie she hits. They are not as useless as so many players think.

 

There is nothing immoral or unfair about tailoring an adventure and the villains to specifically challenge the team who is playng. On the contrary, it is doing your players a disservice not to.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

You spent 6 PAGES telling me this wasn't true' date=' and in the last post before you had it deleted, you admitted it was true. You admitted you had no idea what the SFX was, and that it didn't matter. You think [b']I'm[/b] hostile, you think I'm the one that has to win? You're the one who spent 6 pages denying what you knew was true, just to try to prove I wasn't right. You could have said on page 2 "Yeah, eh I just like playing out the limitation" and boom argument over.

I'm going to address this specific issue because it seems to be the core of your argument.

 

We were discussing the value of specific Limitations, to wit OIHID. I said the sfx of the OIHID Limitation is irrelevant. It makes no difference to the -¼ value of the Limitation whether the change from unpowered to powered status involves taking a chemical potion, saying a magic word, having armor teleport in place around the character, activating a magic ring of power, or accelerating a consciously reduced metabolism: The value is still -¼. This is self-evident, but you glommed onto that statement like I'd just admitted I assassinated JFK. It shouldn't have been a "gotcha!" moment at all; I was stating the obvious because it was increasing clear I wasn't getting through to you with more subtle arguments. I don't know how you got the idea I admitted any such thing; because I emphatically did not and do not admit any such thing. You may not believe it, but to me sfx trumps build. That's a staple of our campaign and has been since its inception.

 

I know the effect I want to accomplish with OIHID for Zl'f: That she doesn't always have her powers, and activating them can be hindered or prevented by the GM. Is OIHID the only valid way to create this effect in Hero? Probably not. But it seems closest to the restriction I want to roleplay; and more importantly has passed muster with all my GMs. And you've pretty much said it: I just like playing out the limitation. It is important to my concept of Zl'f that she remains fragile (compared to most supers) and spends the vast majority of her time sans powers. Were it for some reason necessary to eliminate the OIHID I would do it that way, but I would still play out the limitation. I simply see no logical reason to throw away legitimate character points gained by using a valid and legal Limitation. Using legitimate Limitations and point breaks is not munchkinism; it is sound design practice.

 

As I also noted above, I listened to your valid criticisms of two of the Limitations I had placed on Zl'f (Flashed as Sight and Restrainable) and subsequently removed them. (I was never entirely comfortable with the Restrainable and pretty much knew it was borderline cheesy; which I admitted earlier in that thread.) If you still think that's ignoring or being hostile towards your comments, I honestly don't know how to respond.

 

Now, can we all sing 'Kumbaya' now or should I have my second call on yours?

[Checkmate]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

I'm going to address this specific issue because it seems to be the core of your argument.

Okay great, now we're having a discussion (no sarcasm intended). My one point, is look how many times I had to say it before you really took the time to understand what I was saying. This is where my frustration comes in. I feel like you don't take the time to understand my position but you're still arguing against it. You immediately think I'm saying something against you, so need to respond, but I don't feel you really try understand what you're responding to.

We were discussing the value of specific Limitations' date=' to wit OIHID. I said the sfx of the OIHID Limitation is irrelevant. It makes no difference to the -¼ value of the Limitation whether the change from unpowered to powered status involves taking a chemical potion, saying a magic word, having armor teleport in place around the character, activating a magic ring of power, or accelerating a consciously reduced metabolism: The value is still -¼. This is self-evident, but you glommed onto that statement like I'd just admitted I assassinated JFK. It shouldn't have been a "gotcha!" moment at all; I was stating the obvious because it was increasing clear I wasn't getting through to you with more subtle arguments. I don't know how you got the idea I admitted any such thing; because I emphatically did not and do not admit any such thing. You may not believe it, but to me sfx trumps build. That's a staple of our campaign and has been since its inception.[/quote']

And this is a perfect example. You see, you may have been arguing the validity of the -1/4, but I wasn't. I said numerous times that I agree that OIHID is a valid limitation and I use it myself. What I was saying was that I don't believe OIHID fits the conception, or the way I understand the conception. Hence my numerous posts of "how hard is it to stop meditating?". This was the basis of my argument, which wasn't what you were arguing against.

I know the effect I want to accomplish with OIHID for Zl'f: That she doesn't always have her powers' date=' and activating them can be hindered or prevented by the GM. Is OIHID the only valid way to create this effect in Hero? Probably not. But it seems closest to the restriction I want to roleplay; and more importantly has passed muster with all my GMs. And you've pretty much said it: I just like playing out the limitation. It is important to my concept of Zl'f that she remains fragile (compared to most supers) and spends the vast majority of her time sans powers. Were it for some reason necessary to eliminate the OIHID I would do it that way, but I[i'] would still play out the limitation.[/i] I simply see no logical reason to throw away legitimate character points gained by using a valid and legal Limitation. Using legitimate Limitations and point breaks is not munchkinism; it is sound design practice.

I never called in munchkinism. The only thing I said that may be taken as derogatory is Power Gamer. I don't attach negative connotations to that so I sometimes throw that out there (as well as "stat inflation") without thinking that most people view it as a negative thing, I did say that as long as all play the same way, and you all like it, it works great have fun. I just said that were I GM and you came to me with that, I wouldn't allow it. It doesn't fit what I understand is the concept. If you like the limitation, pick a conception that fits it. That's if I were GM. I respond to all character posts the same way, I post what I would say if I were the GM.

As I also noted above' date=' I listened to your valid criticisms of two of the Limitations I had placed on Zl'f ([i']Flashed as Sight [/i]and Restrainable) and subsequently removed them. (I was never entirely comfortable with the Restrainable and pretty much knew it was borderline cheesy; which I admitted earlier in that thread.) If you still think that's ignoring or being hostile towards your comments, I honestly don't know how to respond.

Glad I could help take points away from that munchkin build

 

Now' date=' can we all sing 'Kumbaya' now or should I have my second call on yours? [/quote']As I said, by the time I navigate out of the thread, I'm over it. All I ask, is don't immediately assume I'm out for blood with all my posts, and try to understand my position before arguing against it, I'll do my best to do the same.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Okay great' date=' now we're having a discussion (no sarcasm intended). My one point, is look how many times I had to say it before you really took the time to understand what I was saying. This is where my frustration comes in. I feel like you don't take the time to understand my position but you're still arguing against it. You immediately think I'm saying something against you, so need to respond, but I don't feel you really try understand what you're responding to.[/quote']I wasn't the only board member (including a moderator) who thought you were being overtly hostile towards me. Nuance doesn't always translate well over the 'net.

 

And this is a perfect example. You see, you may have been arguing the validity of the -1/4, but I wasn't. I said numerous times that I agree that OIHID is a valid limitation and I use it myself. What I was saying was that I don't believe OIHID fits the conception, or the way I understand the conception. Hence my numerous posts of "how hard is it to stop meditating?". This was the basis of my argument, which wasn't what you were arguing against.

And here you were clearly misunderstanding my point: I wasn't arguing the validity of OIHID; I was observing that regardless of SFX the value is the same so your focus on the sfx of the Limitation was pointless when we were talking about Limitation value. We were talking past each other.

 

I never called in munchkinism. The only thing I said that may be taken as derogatory is Power Gamer. I don't attach negative connotations to that so I sometimes throw that out there (as well as "stat inflation") without thinking that most people view it as a negative thing [snip]

Yes, munchkin is probably taken as an attack by 95% of board members. Power Gamer not so much; since it's essentially a philosophy of play rather than of build. If you played in my group, you'd understand none of us are Power Gamers but that's obviously not something you could possibly know over the internet.

 

Glad I could help take points away from that munchkin build

Actually, so am I. Zl'f will be a better character for it. The change was completely painless - I simply dropped an Adder on the Missile Deflection I'd never used. (Zl'f has used her Missile Deflection about 5 times in her entire career and Missile Reflection exactly once.)

 

As I said, by the time I navigate out of the thread, I'm over it. All I ask, is don't immediately assume I'm out for blood with all my posts, and try to understand my position before arguing against it, I'll do my best to do the same.

Fair enough. I'll try to do the same.

[JmOz]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Now, can we all sing 'Kumbaya' now or should I have my second call on yours?

 

I guess there is only one thing left to do

 

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya

O Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s laughing, Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s laughing, Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s laughing, Lord, kumbaya

O Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s crying, Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s crying, Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s crying, Lord, kumbaya

O Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s praying, Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s praying, Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s praying, Lord, kumbaya

O Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s singing, Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s singing, Lord, kumbaya

Someone’s singing, Lord, kumbaya

O Lord, kumbaya

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya

O Lord, kumbaya

[Force]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

All I know about this whole thread, is that everything is relative. Characters, campaigns, everything.

 

I mean my brick is a combat monster, has lower xp than Zl'f, but I can guarantee that Zl'f (version 434) would not want to fight my brick in a stand up fight. Would our team want to fight their team (even numbers)? Probably not. My character doesn't offer a whole lot outside of combat, but that was his role and point on the team. Our campaign started out with similar limits to Treb's campaign, but by the time it was over, wow.

 

It's all relative.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

All I know about this whole thread, is that everything is relative. Characters, campaigns, everything.

 

I mean my brick is a combat monster, has lower xp than Zl'f, but I can guarantee that Zl'f (version 434) would not want to fight my brick in a stand up fight. Would our team want to fight their team (even numbers)? Probably not. My character doesn't offer a whole lot outside of combat, but that was his role and point on the team. Our campaign started out with similar limits to Treb's campaign, but by the time it was over, wow.

 

It's all relative.

As I said in another thread on another aspect of brick vs MA, Zl'f's archnemesis is a brick named Fezzek. Not only did he literally squeeze her unconscious on their first encounter and throw her off a castle wall on their second, but she's never even had a chance to actually fight him. She did once do a Move Through on him at 30" (not a particularly good idea when you have only 6 PD under those circumstances, but it was in a good cause), which Stunned her and left her with about 2 STUN. The only thing it really accomplished was to leak a point of STUN through his defenses and therefore prevent him from taking a Recovery. Fortunately for Zl'f, other members of the team were beginning to arrive and Fezzek decided to vamoose.

[JmOz]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

As I said in another thread on another aspect of brick vs MA' date=' Zl'f's archnemesis is a brick named Fezzek. Not only did he literally squeeze her unconscious on their first encounter and throw her off a castle wall on their second, but she's never even had a chance to actually [i']fight[/i] him. She did once do a Move Through on him at 30" (not a particularly good idea when you have only 6 PD under those circumstances, but it was in a good cause), which Stunned her and left her with about 2 STUN. The only thing it really accomplished was to leak a point of STUN through his defenses and therefore prevent him from taking a Recovery. Fortunately for Zl'f, other members of the team were beginning to arrive and Fezzek decided to vamoose.

 

I still think you should pick her up "Passing Strike"

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

I still think you should pick her up "Passing Strike"

I thought about that and rejected it a long time ago. Purchasing Passing Strike would simply make her too much like a speedster; something I've been working hard to evolve her away from. Besides, with 30" of Running it would exceed my self-imposed damage cap by doing 12d6 (6d6 + v/5)

 

I'm not even entirely comfortable with Zl'f having Flying Dodge and bought that maneuver only because two of my GMs persuaded me to buy it.

[JmOz]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

I thought about that and rejected it a long time ago. Purchasing Passing Strike would simply make her too much like a speedster; something I've been working hard to evolve her away from. Besides, with 30" of Running it would exceed my self-imposed damage cap by doing 12d6 (6d6 + v/5)

 

I'm not even entirely comfortable with Zl'f having Flying Dodge and bought that maneuver only because two of my GMs persuaded me to buy it.

 

I know, we've had the conversation before,

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

I know' date=' we've had the conversation before,[/quote']Mentor keeps pushing me to buy Find Weakness for her too. I'll probably do that someday, but I'm not in any hurry. Some more Skills are higher on the list.

[Force]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

As I said in another thread on another aspect of brick vs MA' date=' Zl'f's archnemesis is a brick named Fezzek. Not only did he literally squeeze her unconscious on their first encounter and throw her off a castle wall on their second, but she's never even had a chance to actually [i']fight[/i] him. She did once do a Move Through on him at 30" (not a particularly good idea when you have only 6 PD under those circumstances, but it was in a good cause), which Stunned her and left her with about 2 STUN. The only thing it really accomplished was to leak a point of STUN through his defenses and therefore prevent him from taking a Recovery. Fortunately for Zl'f, other members of the team were beginning to arrive and Fezzek decided to vamoose.

 

Exactly my point. And I bet there are bricks that are afraid of you as well.

 

It's all relative.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Exactly my point. And I bet there are bricks that are afraid of you as well.

 

It's all relative.

Absolutely. In fact, Zl'f recently beat a pretty solid demibrick who also had martial arts rather easily. OTOH, if he'd got his hands on her she'd have been toast since his martial art is a form of wrestling. But she KO'd him before he managed to Martial Grab her.