Thoughts on SPD

[Warp9]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

In order to balance' date=' a slower character needs to be able to hit better (higher OCV) and harder (more damage) than the faster character.[/quote']

 

There are 3 factors here:

 

(A) Number of Attacks

( Accuracy of the Attacks

© Power of the Attacks

 

All 3 factors must be considered for balance.

 

Imagine 2 characters going against a 20 Def 4 DCV target. . . .

 

Character A has a 12 SPD, a 60 OCV, and a 1d6 EB

 

Character B has a 2 SPD, a 2 OCV and a 25d6 EB

 

According to your argument, Character B (with the lower SPD), needs better (higher OCV) and harder (more damage) than Character A. However, Character B, with lower SPD and lower OCV, will be more effective against the target I described above.

 

And I think you'll find that Character B will be more effective against most targets, even though he can only hit harder (more damage), but not better (lower OCV).

[Warp9]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

as for running SPD, remember that the SPD 6 person is going 13 mph and DODGING, not straight sprinting. the same character going full out would be hitting 43.2 kph (27 mph rounded) which is think is outside peak human perfromance seeing as how Micheal Johnson set the world's record for sprint 37 kph (and i guarentee he paid double points for that last bit of SPD!)

 

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/KatarzynaJanuszkiewicz.shtml

 

now, how i personally get around this issue is by selling down running hexes for combat prowess-monsters like Bruce Lee. i would make him SPD 6, but only have 4" Running, which still makes him outrun a SPD 3 character with 6" Running, but he's not setting world records either. just me, though.

 

p.s. just checking math here:

 

6" Running = 12 meters

SPD 6 = 6 actions in 12 secs

60/12 = 5 turns/minute = 30 actions/minute

60*5 = 300 turns/hour = 1800 actions/hour

1800*12 = 21,600 meters/hour

21,600/1000 = 21.6 kph (as SteveZilla said)

non-combat = 2x Running

21.6*2 = 43.2 kph (as i said above)

 

all math = sound!

 

I've always assumed that if a person had 2 SPD it meant the character had 2 actions in 12 seconds, which also meant each action takes place over a period of 6 seconds.

 

Or a 3 SPD character has an action which takes place over a period of 4 seconds.

 

Yet recently I'd been doing some thinking about turn based motion, and I realized that there are some interesting considerations involved.

 

For example, if my character has 40" flight and flies his whole 40" inches during his phase, what happens afterwards? Is he still moving? The game doesn't seem to say so. If he starts his next action by attacking somebody then he will not move at all. And not moving at all could be a very good thing if he ended his last action by flying right up next to a wall (assuming that moving forward would take him into the wall).

 

If you look at what the game system literally says, the characters seem to be acting on given segments rather than moving over an extended period. It is almost like the characters who are in combat act, then stop for a bit to assess the situation, then move again. According to this view, a low SPD character spends most of the turn not moving at all.

 

And that would explain why a character with a 1 SPD and 20" running (20" per turn), does more velocity damage than a character who has a 6 SPD and 10" running (60" per turn).

 

Assuming constant velocity over a turn, the 6 SPD 10" character should be moving 3 times as fast as the 1 SPD 20" character.

 

Assuming that the characters are moving in segment long "bursts" of velocity, this would explain why velocity damage works as it does.

 

Although this view does raise the issue of a 2 SPD normal moving 6" in a single segment, that would be a pretty increadible feat for a normal person.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

yea. in supers games i take into account total segments traveled for velocity damage (basically adding the velocity from each fMove action taken directly before the attack). its not exactly correct, but it gives you a bit more of a sense of a high SPD character actually moving faster, etc.

[Outsider]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Doesn't that kind of make martial artists nothing more than dead meat for bricks?

 

As long as the slower character can hit (even if relatively seldom) and can take the faster character's hits without too much difficulty, it should be fairly balanced. Give a brick MA-level OCV and martial artists become pointless.

 

 

All else being the same, a slower character needs to hit more or harder than a faster one. Martial artists typically don't have Brick defenses, though, so all else isnt the same.

 

The problem a slower character, even a brick, has is that they usually can't take a faster character's hits without too much difficulty. Not at the rate they are coming in, and especially not when those hits often avoid the slower character's primary defense. In my experience anyway, it is not at all uncommon for a super martial artist to have a Nerve Strike of some sort, usually beefed up to 4D6 or more with HTH DCs. If the Brick doesnt happen to rely on a rigid armor for his PD, he's dead (well, unconscious) meat.

 

This, of course, isnt really a problem if the Martial Artist has to dodge to avoid getting hit by the brick. Assuming the MA is up only 2 or 3 SPD on the brick, a typical brick can take 2 or 3 Nerve Strikes a turn and rely on his post-12 recovery, while waiting on a couple of lucky hits. If the MA can rely on his DCV without dodging, then the brick will be hit 7-8 times a turn and go down fast.

[Vondy]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

I think we need to take genre and character design into account.

 

The various examples people are presenting are internally consistent for certain genres and certain methods of designing characters. I can create Bruce Lee, for instance, by giving him a speed 6-7, but I can also create him with speed 4 and a slew of performance enhancing skills and talents that simulate the same thing by giving him more attack actions. Its also a question of how gritty or cinematic your game is. My experience is that a group of speed 4 heroes facing equally skilled/tough speed 3 opponents will almost invariably dominate and win. Add in those "performance enhancers" and they will slaughter even speed 4 opponents out of hand. From that perspective the viability of the current cap of 4 on speed is entirely dependent on character builds. Bruce might still be Mr. Fists Like Lightning at speed 4 - and with defense maneuver a high dex and a few skill levels he hardly needs to waste actions blocking or dodging the horde of mid-level goons he's fighting (that's just FX). Block and dodge maneuvers could be something used for named henchmen and Big Boss. At the same time, I could give him a speed 6-7 and fewer "performance enhancers" and call it the same thing. Both are viable modes of simulating the same thing.

 

Another issue is, of course, genre. High speeds are more appropriate in romantic cinematic games and superheoric games. For grittier games speed 4 - with or without those performance enhancers - may be a better simulation for quick characters. You have to consider both how far ahead of the masses your heroes are and how you want to get there. Hero isn't a one size fits all system. Its designed to be tailored to many sizes.

 

I, obviously, prefer to keep the speed 4 cap, but to use performance enhancers for heroic games. On the other hand, were I to run a high-end cinematic game, or a superheroic game, I'd probably push it up to 5 or 6, but make a point of noting thats for named, headlining normals. Not even "special forces commandos" would go above 4 (and most would probably be 3 with performance enhancers) unless they were named uber-heroes. Others, however, will stick with characteristics rather than skills and talents.

 

I think there's room for both methods - you just have to know how your group uses the system and builds characters.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

All else being the same, a slower character needs to hit more or harder than a faster one. Martial artists typically don't have Brick defenses, though, so all else isnt the same.

 

The problem a slower character, even a brick, has is that they usually can't take a faster character's hits without too much difficulty. Not at the rate they are coming in, and especially not when those hits often avoid the slower character's primary defense. In my experience anyway, it is not at all uncommon for a super martial artist to have a Nerve Strike of some sort, usually beefed up to 4D6 or more with HTH DCs. If the Brick doesnt happen to rely on a rigid armor for his PD, he's dead (well, unconscious) meat.

 

This, of course, isnt really a problem if the Martial Artist has to dodge to avoid getting hit by the brick. Assuming the MA is up only 2 or 3 SPD on the brick, a typical brick can take 2 or 3 Nerve Strikes a turn and rely on his post-12 recovery, while waiting on a couple of lucky hits. If the MA can rely on his DCV without dodging, then the brick will be hit 7-8 times a turn and go down fast.

That still doesn't justify giving a brick a higher OCV than an MA. It may justify an equal OCV, though even that is pushing it.

 

First of all, if a brick has a higher OCV, then most of the time when it comes to Brick vs MA the brick will win in one or two hits. He may not knock the MA unconscious on his first hit but he will probably Stun him; and at that point Mr. MA is dead meat because he lacks the high CON and STUN the brick has. You're worried about the brick going down in 7-8 hits, but you don't see a problem with the MA taking a fall in 1-2 hits? One or two hits is reasonable if it's hard for the brick to hit, but if he has a higher OCV that's obviously not the case.

 

Secondly, you're assuming the brick will just stand there like a punching bag and take the MA's hits. That has not been my experience on either end of that type of combat; and I played both archetypes for many years in Champions. When the brick can't hit the faster higher DCV MA directly with his (generally lower) OCV, then it's time to grab a flyswatter. Sedans and SUVs make great flyswatters, and buses, billboards, and buildings will do in a pinch. (Same thing applies in Fantasy Hero, where I've seen STR 25 bricks use tavern tables and rolled up rugs to smash those annoying fencers.) There are very few MAs who can handle getting whacked over the head with a Suburban.

[Outsider]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

There are 3 factors here:

 

(A) Number of Attacks

( Accuracy of the Attacks

© Power of the Attacks

 

All 3 factors must be considered for balance.

 

Imagine 2 characters going against a 20 Def 4 DCV target. . . .

 

Character A has a 12 SPD, a 60 OCV, and a 1d6 EB

 

Character B has a 2 SPD, a 2 OCV and a 25d6 EB

 

According to your argument, Character B (with the lower SPD), needs better (higher OCV) and harder (more damage) than Character A. However, Character B, with lower SPD and lower OCV, will be more effective against the target I described above.

 

And I think you'll find that Character B will be more effective against most targets, even though he can only hit harder (more damage), but not better (lower OCV).

 

 

How about using numbers we might actually run into :

 

(Character A is a typical Martial Artist in my experience, Character B is a typical Brick (B-60 a typical Brick in a hard 60 AP limit campaign, B-75 in one that applies a cap based on DC & OCV via a formula (ie lower OCVs can have higher DCs))

 

Character A

8 SPD

15 OCV

40 STN

Martial Arts Package (20 STR, 4 HTH DCs, Maneuver) :

O Strike : -2 OCV, +1 DCV : 12D6 EB,

M Strike : +2 OCV, +0 DCV : 10D6 EB

D Strike : +1 OCV, +3 DCV : 8D6 EB

N Strike : -1 OCV, +1 DCV : 4D6 NND

 

Character B (2 varieties)

5 SPD

10 OCV

60 to 70 STUN

High STR (60 STR or 75 STR)

Punch : +0 OCV, +0 DCV : 12D6 or 15D6

 

 

Against a variety of targets :

 

 

Target 1 : DCV 5, PD 40

 

Character A :

O Strike : 100% hits (19-) doing 2 STN (16 STN/Turn)

N Strike : 100% hits (20-) doing 14 STN (112 STN/Turn)

 

Character B :

Punch 60 : 98% hits (16-) doing 2 Stun ( 10 STN/Turn)

Punch 75 : 98% hits (16-) doing 13 Stun ( 64 STN/Turn)

 

 

Target 2 : DCV 10, PD 30

 

Character A :

O Strike : 91% hits (14-) doing 12 STN (87 STN/Turn)

M Strike : 100% hits (18-) doing 5 STN (40 STN/Turn)

N Strike : 95% hits (15-) doing 14 STN (106 STN/Turn)

 

Character B :

Punch 60 : 63% hits (11-) doing 12 STN (38 STN/Turn)

Punch 75 : 63% hits (11-) doing 23 STN (72 STN/Turn)

 

 

Target 3 : DCV 15, PD 20

 

Character A :

O Strike : 38% hits (9-) doing 22 STN (67 STN/Turn)

M Strike : 84% hits (13-) doing 15 STN (101 STN/Turn)

D Strike : 74% hits (12-) doing 8 STN (47 STN/Turn)

N Strike : 50% hits (10-) doing 14 STN (56 STN/Turn)

 

Character B :

Punch 60 : 9% hits (6-) doing 22 STN (10 STN/Turn)

Punch 75 : 9% hits (6-) doing 33 STN (15 STN/Turn)

 

 

 

So Character A is best against all target types, unless Nerve Strike doesnt work, then B-75 is better against one target type. Of course, type 1 targets are pretty rare. Most supers I've seen tend to hover around type 2 and type 3.

 

Typically, Character A will be a Type 3 target, while Character B will be a Type 2, so A will inflict 87 STUN per turn, while B will inflict only 10 or 15, if fighting eachother. Clearly the brick stands a pretty low chance of winning this fight, needing two strokes of luck in close proximity. (2 hits in 3 phases, since the MA will have the brick unconscious in 2/3rds to 3/4ths of a Turn)

 

Now... IF you allow your Bricks to have an OCV comparable to the Martial Artist's, and a large or even oversized attack, then the Martial Artist will either have to sacrifice some of his phases to avoid getting hit, seriously lowering his ability to plow over the Brick using NND or high raw dice attacks, OR he will actually stand a significant chance of losing a punchout with the Brick*.

 

 

Character C :

5 SPD

15 OCV

High STR (60 STR or 75 STR)

Punch : +0 OCV, +0 DCV : 12D6 of 15D6

 

Type 1 Target :

 

Character A

O Strike : 100% hits (19-) doing 2 STN (16 STN/Turn)

N Strike : 100% hits (20-) doing 14 STN (112 STN/Turn)

 

Character C

Punch 60 : 100% hits (21-) doing 2 STN (10 STN/Turn)

Punch 75 : 100% hits (21-) doing 13 STN (65 STN/Turn)

 

 

Type 2 Target :

 

Character A :

O Strike : 91% hits (14-) doing 12 STN (87 STN/Turn)

M Strike : 100% hits (18-) doing 5 STN (40 STN/Turn)

N Strike : 95% hits (15-) doing 14 STN (106 STN/Turn)

 

Character C :

Punch 60 : 98% hits (16-) doing 12 STN (59 STN/Turn)

Punch 75 : 98% hits (16-) doing 23 STN (113 STN/Turn)

 

 

Type 3 Target :

 

Character A :

O Strike : 38% hits (9-) doing 22 STN (67 STN/Turn)

M Strike : 84% hits (13-) doing 15 STN (101 STN/Turn)

D Strike : 74% hits (12-) doing 8 STN (47 STN/Turn)

N Strike : 50% hits (10-) doing 14 STN (56 STN/Turn)

 

Character C :

Punch 60 : 63% hits (11-) doing 22 STN (69 STN/Turn)

Punch 75 : 63% hits (11-) doing 33 STN (104 STN/Turn)

 

 

Type 4 Target : (DCV 20, PD 20 : A Dodging Martial Artist)

 

Character A :

O Strike : 2% hits (4-) doing 22 STN (4 STN/Turn)

M Strike : 26% hits (8-) doing 15 STN (31 STN/Turn)

D Strike : 16% hits (7-) doing 8 STN (10 STN/Turn)

N Strike : 5% hits (5-) doing 14 STN (6 STN/Turn)

 

Character C :

Punch 60 : 9% hits (6-) doing 22 STN (10 STN/Turn)

Punch 75 : 9% hits (6-) doing 33 STN (15 STN/Turn)

 

 

 

*The MA acts on a higher DEX than the Brick, and thus gets 8 actions in before the Brick gets his 5th, and 6 actions before the brick gets his 4th. Since the MA will be using either Nerve Strike, or Offensive Strike he will be up 1 DCV, lowering the brick's to hit odds to 50%. The brick needs 2 hits to win.

 

Chance of a 4 Hit sequence : 1/16

Chance of a 3 Hit sequence : 4/16

Chance of a 2 Hit sequence : 6/16

Chance of a 1 Hit sequence : 4/16

Chance of a 0 Hit sequence : 1/16

 

But not all sequences are created equal. If 2 of his first 3 strikes are hits, he will win. If 2 of his first 3 strikes are misses, he loses -if- the MA doesnt miss on any of his attacks (91% to 95% to hit on each, 62% to 77% chance of all hits, depending on the attack) and if the 5 hits from the MA (60 to 70 STN, depending on what attack is used) are enough to knock him out. If his sequence contains 1 or less hits, he will lose.

 

 

Possible Brick hit sequences

. = no action segement

# = MA strikes

z = MA unstuns

* = Brick hits

- = Brick misses

/// = Fight Over

 

 

Two Hits Right Off : (Brick hit twice, then Wins) : 25%

. 2 3* . z*///

 

Sequences with this result :

hhhh

hhhm

hhmh

hhmm

 

 

Two Hits Early : (Brick hit 4 times, then Wins) 25%

. 2 3- . 5* z . 8*///

. 2 3* . z- 6 . 8*///

 

Sequences with this result :

hmhh

hmhm

mhhh

mhhm

 

Two Hits Late : (Brick takes 5 hits, victory depends on brick's STN stat) 18.75%

. 2 3- . 5- . 6 . 8* z *///

. 2 3- . 5* . z . 8- 9 *///

. 2 3* . z- . 6 . 8- 9 *///

 

Sequences with this result :

mmhh

mhmh

hmmh

 

No Hits or One Hit : (Brick Loses) : 31.25%

(Not Broken out)

 

Sequences with this result :

hmmm

mhmm

mmhm

mmmh

mmmm

 

 

Basically, even in a straight punch out (what should be the Brick's strong suit), the odds are a lot closer to even if you allow bricks MA level OCV. If you dont, MA's walk alover Bricks, given that they have only a 1/10 chance to hit, need 2 hits to win, and will be unconscious in less than a turn.

[Outsider]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

That still doesn't justify giving a brick a higher OCV than an MA. It may justify an equal OCV, though even that is pushing it.

 

First of all, if a brick has a higher OCV, then most of the time when it comes to Brick vs MA the brick will win in one or two hits. He may not knock the MA unconscious on his first hit but he will probably Stun him; and at that point Mr. MA is dead meat because he lacks the high CON and STUN the brick has. You're worried about the brick going down in 7-8 hits, but you don't see a problem with the MA taking a fall in 1-2 hits? One or two hits is reasonable if it's hard for the brick to hit, but if he has a higher OCV that's obviously not the case.

 

Secondly, you're assuming the brick will just stand there like a punching bag and take the MA's hits. That has not been my experience on either end of that type of combat; and I played both archetypes for many years in Champions. When the brick can't hit the faster higher DCV MA directly with his (generally lower) OCV, then it's time to grab a flyswatter. Sedans and SUVs make great flyswatters, and buses, billboards, and buildings will do in a pinch. (Same thing applies in Fantasy Hero, where I've seen STR 25 bricks use tavern tables and rolled up rugs to smash those annoying fencers.) There are very few MAs who can handle getting whacked over the head with a Suburban.

 

 

1) Even if the MA is stunned, he has generally has a higher SPD than the Brick and will unstun before the brick can hit him again.

 

2) I operate on the assumption that the MA will take 2 hits to KO. But even 1 hit is unreasonable if the Brick has a sub-10% chance to hit. With a 5% chance to hit (5-, down 6 OCV (MA is up 5 base+ levels, then uses +1 DCV maneuver (Offensive Strike, or Nerve Strike) the Bricks odds of missing 5 times in a row (his whole turn) are 79%. And he will, astronomical bad luck on the MA's part excepted, be KOed by the MA in a turn.

 

3) The 'flyswatter' technique is completely dependent on if there is anything appropriate about to be used as such.

 

4) The Martial Artist merely needs to dive for cover by a hex or two to avoid the flyswatter. How is this substantially different from the MA using a phase to dodge a high OCV brick, as I suggested?

 

5) See my previous post and analysis about the effects of high OCV bricks on Brick v MA fights. The Brick may only need 2 hits, but he's not really got that good of odds to get them before he's Nerve Striked or Offensive Striked (striked?) to oblivion. He could well be unconscious before he gets 3 actions. And he will still be on the downside of the to hit roll because the MA's maneuvers add CV.

[Greywind]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

There are 3 factors here:

 

(A) Number of Attacks

( Accuracy of the Attacks

© Power of the Attacks

 

All 3 factors must be considered for balance.

 

Imagine 2 characters going against a 20 Def 4 DCV target. . . .

 

Character A has a 12 SPD, a 60 OCV, and a 1d6 EB

 

Character B has a 2 SPD, a 2 OCV and a 25d6 EB

 

According to your argument, Character B (with the lower SPD), needs better (higher OCV) and harder (more damage) than Character A. However, Character B, with lower SPD and lower OCV, will be more effective against the target I described above.

 

And I think you'll find that Character B will be more effective against most targets, even though he can only hit harder (more damage), but not better (lower OCV).

Your argument is inherently broken, as it goes way beyond the parameters as discussed.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

As the original poster I’d like to ask if we can’t put this thread back on topic. Maybe you all could start a separate thread for your discussion on Brick vs. Martial Artist?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

first' date=' in DnD 3.5, at 20th level, a fighter-type can make 4 attacks (5 if Hasted) without two weapons, which means they top out at 8 (DnD round is 6 secs) and start at 2. however. i believe most people would agree that 10th level is more within the realm of believability as peak human ability, which is 2 attacks, which is around SPD 4. so, in essence, DnD agrees with HERO (i often find this true. their Attribute scores for STR also match fairly well.)....................................[/quote']

 

IIRC a 20th level Fighter can attack 4 times in a round which requires a full round action. A round is now 6 seconds (although it used to be a minute, way back when....)

 

That would mean (potentially) 8 attacks in 12 seconds, but that is NOT the same thing as a SPD of 8, IMO - Hero allows a similar 'full round action' if you use the sweep manouvre to attack multuiple times in a phase - the rules suggest that 2-3 attacks with a sweep manouvre on a single target should be the normal limit, so a SPD 4 character in Hero could get in 8-12 attacks in 12 seconds againat a single target. Granted there would be significant penalties, but the same applies in DnD - that last attack is going in at (effectively) -15 to hit!

 

This COULD be done by a Hero character just starting out, although the ' Whirling Blades Of Death' approach is more recommended for someone with a little more experience

 

Bear in mind that DnD treats attack actions and standard actions in a rather different way to Hero, but basically you can make an attack and a standard action in a turn (6 seconds). The attack action can involve multiple attacks if you chose to take the associated penalties, but you can only get in one move (or two if you forfeit your attack).

 

So, i suppose, DnD is in fact getting alarmingly close to Hero - you can make two half moves or a move and attack. The attack can be a single hit (has to be if you moved) or, as a full action, a flurry of blows.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Can I just comment on the 'Brick/MA' debate, without using too many (debateable) numbers?

 

This is all down to design and sfx. The example superheroes in 5ER are all remarkably similar in combat ability in terms of defences, damage and CV, but wildly different in terms of look and feel. This is not how I generally play, but I really admire the approach taken in the character design.

 

In most of the games I play in, bricks, when they hit, tend to get more damage through as, IME, they have the bigger damage potential, so you also need to figure in CON as a result that stuns can decide a combat. I would expect a martial artist to have a significant advantage in CV, maybe a small disadvantage in damage and a significant disadvantage in defences.

 

Moreover, it would be a pretty unusual brick with 60-75 strength who did not try and hit the squishies with large objects that either provide the advantage of AoE on attacks, or, at very least, a significant OCV bonus.

 

We can argue figures all day, but at the end of it, the truth that I usually cleave to is that a martial artist will have to wear down a brick and hope he doesn't get tagged with a lucky one He will use his SPD advantage to great use by shifting levels and being ready to abort to defensive actions. A brick will have to do everythting he can to maximise his OCV and hope he gets lucky with a grab - once he has hands on the martial artist it is all but over...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Something of an aside, but it would be interesting to compare the various values that we would expect to see on different archetypes in our games.

 

Although we now have 350 point games I ahve not progressed far past a 250 point mentality, and I'd expect a brick to look something like:

 

STR 60 (damage around 12d6 normal)

DEX 20-23

CON 28

DEF 25-30

SPD 4

STUN 60

 

Maybe one or two skill levels.

 

A Martial Artist, would probably look like this:

 

STR 15-30 (damage of 8-12d6 normal)

DEX 30

CON 18-23

DEF 20

SPD 6

STUN 45

 

With a few (3 or 4) skill levels and martial arts

 

Like I said, based on the way we tend to play, a MA should win in a 'straight' fight 4 times out of 5*, but in a 'proper' combat, with scenery, it becomes a much more uncertain proposition, and the odds are far closer to even.

 

I'm not saying the figures we use are or should be typical - I'm just saying that it is all about application, not just build.

 

* That lucky hit

[Outsider]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Why should a Martial Artist win 80% of the time in a punching match? Shouldn't the Martial Artist need to use some finesse? Legsweep, block, dodge, all those crazy bouncing around martial artist things?

 

In a punching match, a brick should be the one with the odds on his side, IMO.

[Cancer]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

I want to echo the point Checkmate made back on page 1, and thrash the badly decomposed corpse of a horse I've beaten before on this subject.

 

The problem with SPD is that the quantum of SPD is much too large at the low end. The difference between SPD 2 and SPD 3 is much larger than the difference between SPD 7 and SPD 8. This means that the quantization of SPD doesn't matter so much in a superheroic campaign, but at lower levels and in lower-powered genres it's huge.

 

This is a direct consequence of SPD being the reciprocal of reaction time, and as SPD gets low, the differences in reaction time represented by different SPD values become very large ... and this happens at just the genre/power level when small differences in reaction time should matter most.

[Thrakazog]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

It's a game balancing mechanic. Maybe we're overthinking this?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

1) Even if the MA is stunned' date=' he has generally has a higher SPD than the Brick and will unstun before the brick can hit him again.[/quote']That's an unwarranted assumption. The brick may hold a Phase so he can go in adjacent Phases (I've seen it done). If he has a higher OCV as you think appropriate, this would be a very safe tactic.

 

2) I operate on the assumption that the MA will take 2 hits to KO. But even 1 hit is unreasonable if the Brick has a sub-10% chance to hit. With a 5% chance to hit (5-, down 6 OCV (MA is up 5 base+ levels, then uses +1 DCV maneuver (Offensive Strike, or Nerve Strike) the Bricks odds of missing 5 times in a row (his whole turn) are 79%. And he will, astronomical bad luck on the MA's part excepted, be KOed by the MA in a turn.

The obvious answer to this is to give the brick abilities difficult for an MA to counter: Desolidification, Flight, Telekinesis, etc. Fight victory probabilities cannot be determined strictly by OCV numbers and attack/defense values. You still haven't justified the brick having a higher OCV. At best you've made an argument for roughly equal OCV.

 

3) The 'flyswatter' technique is completely dependent on if there is anything appropriate about to be used as such.

Very few typical locations will have nothing suitable for use as a flyswatter.

 

4) The Martial Artist merely needs to dive for cover by a hex or two to avoid the flyswatter. How is this substantially different from the MA using a phase to dodge a high OCV brick, as I suggested?

Except for one problem: If he's dodging/blocking/diving for cover, he's not attacking the brick and the number of attacks he gets in becomes equal to the MA's SPD minus the Brick's SPD. Given the higher REC of most bricks, extending the battle past one Turn markedly increases the brick's likelihood of victory. Remember the brick only needs to hit once or twice to win.

 

5) See my previous post and analysis about the effects of high OCV bricks on Brick v MA fights. The Brick may only need 2 hits, but he's not really got that good of odds to get them before he's Nerve Striked or Offensive Striked (striked?) to oblivion. He could well be unconscious before he gets 3 actions. And he will still be on the downside of the to hit roll because the MA's maneuvers add CV.

No, because in your scenario the MA is too busy trying to avoid getting squashed.

 

My long experience playing both archetypes belies your scenario. Unless the brick's defenses are such that the MA can't hurt him at all, typical brick/MA combats IME are far less lopsided than you seem to think them. Give the brick a higher OCV and the odds of victory move almost entirely into the brick's column.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

It's a game balancing mechanic. Maybe we're overthinking this?

Hey, it's what we do.

[Force]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Something of an aside, but it would be interesting to compare the various values that we would expect to see on different archetypes in our games.

 

Although we now have 350 point games I ahve not progressed far past a 250 point mentality, and I'd expect a brick to look something like:

 

STR 60 (damage around 12d6 normal)

DEX 20-23

CON 28

DEF 25-30

SPD 4

STUN 60

 

Maybe one or two skill levels.

 

A Martial Artist, would probably look like this:

 

STR 15-30 (damage of 8-12d6 normal)

DEX 30

CON 18-23

DEF 20

SPD 6

STUN 45

 

With a few (3 or 4) skill levels and martial arts

 

Like I said, based on the way we tend to play, a MA should win in a 'straight' fight 4 times out of 5*, but in a 'proper' combat, with scenery, it becomes a much more uncertain proposition, and the odds are far closer to even.

 

I'm not saying the figures we use are or should be typical - I'm just saying that it is all about application, not just build.

 

* That lucky hit

 

Nice analysis.

 

Rep'ed.

[Checkmate]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

One of the things I see a lot of people automatically assume that a bricks higher Def's and possibly higher damage automatically balance out with a Martial Artist's higher speed and higher hit percentage. Typically this just isn't the case.

 

Another balancing factor CAN be recovery. In a lower SPD game where the SPD's are around 3-5, a higher recovery Brick can balance things a little (then again if you just lower the MA's speed, that may be the balancing factor all on its own).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

One of the things I see a lot of people automatically assume that a bricks higher Def's and possibly higher damage automatically balance out with a Martial Artist's higher speed and higher hit percentage. Typically this just isn't the case.

 

Another balancing factor CAN be recovery. In a lower SPD game where the SPD's are around 3-5, a higher recovery Brick can balance things a little (then again if you just lower the MA's speed, that may be the balancing factor all on its own).

Right. No one thing is *the* balancing factor. Characters must be evaluated on a case by case basis and even then no theoretical analysis is going to be as valid as actual combat(s).

 

All I can say is that if the brick has an OCV as high or higher than the MA's, that MA is probably going to be in big trouble unless he's a lot faster SPD-wise. One or two SPD differential may not be enough.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Balance occurs once play has started and the game begins.

 

It's impossible to "balance" characters based on points. It depends on how the players play them that will ultimately balance or unbalance a character.

[Psylint]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

Diamond Spear,

 

I don't think SPD 6 is actually "easy" for even the highest trained martial artist. If it were, show me the martial artist who can run 12 ft, snap off a reverse punch, side kick, and an axe kick, dive back, run another 12 ft. block 8 attacks, counter with 3, run another 12 ft. attack 3 more times, block 8 attacks and then run 24 feet in 12 seconds.

 

What you see is a lot of actions being taken in sequence, in game terms multi-power attacks and/or consecutive blocks. Many martial artists train to attack in combinations of 2-4 attacks, some of them even adopt long kata to actual combat which can be combinations of 30 or more individual actions. Sure some martial artists can reduce their reaction time to particular events down to tenths of a second, but their response to such events are limited by training. E.g. a good martial artist can react to an overhead smashing attack like a baseball bat with an up-block very quickly, but they generally cannot react with a sidekick, or diving out of the way, unless they've trained that way. An action phase represents a character's ability to exercise full choice of action; what you see in high level martial arts competition is highly trained athletes with trained responses to particular stimuli.

 

How many times in 12 seconds can even the most highly trained fighter completely change strategy? I'm thinking it's a lot less than 6.

 

Peace

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

That still doesn't justify giving a brick a higher OCV than an MA. It may justify an equal OCV, though even that is pushing it.

 

First of all, if a brick has a higher OCV, then most of the time when it comes to Brick vs MA the brick will win in one or two hits. He may not knock the MA unconscious on his first hit but he will probably Stun him; and at that point Mr. MA is dead meat because he lacks the high CON and STUN the brick has. You're worried about the brick going down in 7-8 hits, but you don't see a problem with the MA taking a fall in 1-2 hits?

 

Rock beats Scissors.

 

THAT is part of the genre. You may not like it and it may not play that way in your campaign, but R-P-S is a core concept of the entire universe, and that's just the way it is. Now if your Scissors were made out of Rock you might have a chance to reshoot the match, but Scissors NEVER wins.

 

Unless the Rock has a high cellulose content.

 

In other words, some characters have no chance to beat certain other characters. Zero. Nada. Nil.

 

In practice very few characters are just one thing; they add a little Paper to their Rock to give them a chance to beat other Rocks, but this makes them slightly vulnerable to Scissors. But there are also those to whom 'Good old Rock. Nothin beats Rock' is more than a Simpsons quote, its the definition of their character. And if you're Mr. Pointy, you're gonna get smashed.

[Psylint]

Re: Thoughts on SPD

 

To Outsider,

 

While I appreciate your analysis, you fail to account for some very common tactics.

 

1. The first attack by many bricks vrs. high DCV targets, providing they aren't using a flyswatter, SUV, building, shockwave attack etc. is Grab. Once grabbed, the high DCV target is usually toast. It then becomes a matter of who can dish out damage more quickly. Some martial artists do take contortionist and martial escape, but then again over half the bricks I meet buy extra "casual strength"

 

2. You forgot block. Bricks can block strategically and then gain priority in the next shared phase... to Grab.

 

3. You forgot giants and their STR aoe HEX. How hard is it to squash a DCV 3 hex? Not hard. If the MA dives for cover, then they're at 1/2 DCV for the brick's compatriots.

 

4. You forgot tar baby damage shields (clinging)... hate those things.

 

5. You forgot taunt (Mind Control "Attack me") so that the brick can set up his block, grab, squish.

 

 

 

Peace