Multiple constants

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Multiple constants

 

I don't have my book in front of me' date=' but as memory serves you can have as many Constant Powers on as you have and can pay the END for (if any). Defensive Powers do not stack with themselves, with the exception of Force Wall. A character protected by multiple Force Walls gets the benefit of all of them.[/quote']

Force Wall stacking is pretty much GM's option territory.

 

Since Force Wall is a Constant Power, could a character establish multiple concentric Force Walls to protect himself (or someone else)?

 

Subject to the GM’s discretion, yes — though in some cases (like forming a Force Wall dome or bubble around someone) the Force Wall has to be big enough to keep establishing larger and larger walls. Since this could obviously unbalance the game pretty quickly, the GM should control or forbid it as he sees fit. If the power is constructed to prevent significant abuse (e.g., each Force Wall costs a lot of END, or requires a lot of Extra Time to create), it’s a lot less of a potential problem than if the character has a 0 END Force Wall he can create as a regular Action.

 

EDIT -- GA beat me to the punch. Serves me right for responding before finishing reading the thread

 

 

Yes, GM's discretion...but if its allowed to be used at all, it does stack nonetheless.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Multiple constants

 

Yeah, I find the stacking FW to be way out into Munchkin Field.

 

On the other hand, I have no issue with Multiple Force Walls being used at the same time. Say to capture multiple enemies in FW Bubbles or block an entry with one, another entry with a second and yourself with a third.

 

I wouldn't allow a character to just wrap themselves in ever-smaller domes like a Russian doll or a Rifts psyker, but on the other hand if a character had interposed several force walls here and there about the battle field and by the vagaries of combat more than one was between them and an opponent's attack, then I would allow each to be applied to the attack just as I would allow multiple normal walls or Entangle barriers between them and the attack to apply (assuming the attacker was somehow able to sense and attack them thru said normal walls), and as I would for any other character who happened to be the target.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple constants

 

I wouldn't allow a character to just wrap themselves in ever-smaller domes like a Russian doll or a Rifts psyker' date=' but on the other hand if a character had interposed several force walls here and there about the battle field and by the vagaries of combat more than one was between them and an opponent's attack, then I would allow each to be applied to the attack just as I would allow multiple normal walls or Entangle barriers between them and the attack to apply (assuming the attacker was somehow able to sense and attack them thru said normal walls), and as I would for any other character who happened to be the target.[/quote']

 

That I don't see much issue with.

 

The example I gave: FW on a doorway and around the character. Someone shooting through the doorway at the character has to overcome both FW.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple constants

 

Sorry to be contradictory*, but whatever the FAQ might say, the book is clear: page 180 says that a character may NOT use multiple force walls to provide himself with multiple protection - that is the base state of the power - UNLESS the GM allows (and frankly I LOATHE that phrase - the book would be only half the length it is if it was not repeated so often. I KNOW I can change what I like, I get it).

 

So, yes, the GM can allow it, but the GM can allow Force Walls to damage opponents and let you teleport, but the (un-GM'd) rule is no protection stacking.

 

 

 

* You know I hate that

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple constants

 

Have you noticed though that most of the time when it says "If the GM Allows it" there are a set of rules provided/suggested for ways on handling that situation.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Multiple constants

 

Sorry to be contradictory*, but whatever the FAQ might say, the book is clear: page 180 says that a character may NOT use multiple force walls to provide himself with multiple protection - that is the base state of the power - UNLESS the GM allows (and frankly I LOATHE that phrase - the book would be only half the length it is if it was not repeated so often. I KNOW I can change what I like, I get it).

 

So, yes, the GM can allow it, but the GM can allow Force Walls to damage opponents and let you teleport, but the (un-GM'd) rule is no protection stacking.

 

 

 

* You know I hate that

 

I read GM's discretions that are directly presented, particularly ones with recommendations around how to handle it, as basically being areas where Steve is saying "it works like X because thats the the least potentially disruptive way in general, but a case could certainly be made for Y in the interests of common sense or common usage."

 

YMMV, obviously.

[Outsider]

Re: Multiple constants

 

I'd let a character have as many running as he wants and can afford the END cost for, but make him spend a half phase (possibly an attack action, depending on the power) in combat activating each instance. You want 10 force walls? Spend 10 phases putting them up.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multiple constants

 

re: the idea of multiple force walls.

 

If a character uses a single force wall to englobe himself defensively he wouldn't be able to setup a second force wall unless it was built with the indirect advantage to allow the outer one to get past the inner one.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple constants

 

re: the idea of multiple force walls.

 

If a character uses a single force wall to englobe himself defensively he wouldn't be able to setup a second force wall unless it was built with the indirect advantage to allow the outer one to get past the inner one.

 

Unless he set up the self-englobing wall last.

 

Re-erecting fallen walls later in the battle would be problematic. He just sits there watching his defenses get chewed through... 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... uh oh

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multiple constants

 

Unless he set up the self-englobing wall last.

 

Re-erecting fallen walls later in the battle would be problematic. He just sits there watching his defenses get chewed through... 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... uh oh

 

Even if done last, setting up a self-englobing wall would still cut the character off from any outer force walls (self englobing or not) and therefore turn them off. These problems don't happen if the force walls are not self-englobing but then character facing and speed become more important to its use.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple constants

 

Even if done last' date=' setting up a self-englobing wall would still cut the character off from any outer force walls (self englobing or not) and therefore turn them off. These problems don't happen if the force walls are not self-englobing but then character facing and speed become more important to its use.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure a Force Wall prevents a Character from maintaining already in place Constant Powers - if it does could you point me towards a page reference?

 

The precludes a character from setting up Darkness, Change Environment, Images or like powers before he erects defenses.... Doesn't sound right to me at all.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multiple constants

 

I'm not sure a Force Wall prevents a Character from maintaining already in place Constant Powers - if it does could you point me towards a page reference?

 

The precludes a character from setting up Darkness, Change Environment, Images or like powers before he erects defenses.... Doesn't sound right to me at all.

 

That's a good question that I had not considered. Some further research is in order.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiple constants

 

The argument for wall stacking is a 'common sense' one - if I can create a flat wall, and then another behind it, entirely seperate, with two uses of the same power (you can buy your FW indirect if you are worried about LOS or somesuch - we are concerned here with the principle) then why should a single shot, aimed at me through BOTH walls not have to overcome the defence of both walls, just as if I was standing behind two real walls?

 

The argument against is a game balance argument: there was a thread before even these discussion boards, about 'How to survive an atom bomb at ground zero', which involved a (horribly cheap) autofire force wall. Things can quickly get out of hand.

 

Of course these view points do not have to be mutually exclusive - if you decide that walls do stack, then you are changing the game balance, but so long as that doesn't spoil the enjoyment of the game, go ahead, but when someone does think of it, you are going to have to resort to a 'No'. Especialy when it turns out they also have telekinesis, or an indirect EB.

 

OTOH if walls do not stack then it is logical to assume that when the first wall in the above example goes down, then so does the second, so they are not actually seperate manifestations of the power, even if physically sperarate, but a single manifestation that has been expanded by multiple uses of a constant power, which would lead one to conclude that if one failed then they should all fail.

 

That can be quite harsh, and, so long as no one actually thinks about it too hard, most of us can live somewhere in the middle ground.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multiple constants

 

Since Force Wall is a Constant Power, could a character establish multiple concentric Force Walls to protect himself (or someone else)?

 

Subject to the GM’s discretion, yes — though in some cases (like forming a Force Wall dome or bubble around someone) the Force Wall has to be big enough to keep establishing larger and larger walls. ...

This part isn't really an issue since, AFAIK, there is no rule stating how thick a FW has to be or how far apart two FWs have to be. So if the maximum length FW you can make is 5", you can englobe yourself in a ~3m FW, and make each inner one a few milimeters shorter than the previous.

 

* Above I used the phrase "you can englobe yourself." It was not directed as an attack against anyone, but I may use it as such in the future, particularly against munchkins who try this trick.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Multiple constants

 

Stacking constant powers: IIRC, you can stack Suppress until the cows come home, you run out of END, or the other guys characteristic is at or below -30. You can keep on suppressing from there, but why?

[Psylint]

Re: Multiple constants

 

Definitely one of those judgment call things.

 

Stacking suppression from the same character.... evil.

 

Multiple forcewalls.... depends, englobing multiple opponents no worries, englobing multiple allies, no worries... doubling up? if it's incidental, I'll allow it, that is to say if the principle purpose of the second wall that incidentally doubles up is to perform some other function... cutting off a door, protecting someone else etc.

 

Multiple Darkness? could be a pain for book keeping, but no immediate warning bells.

 

Multiple continuous Energy blasts, drains et. al.? no problem with that.