Multiform

[krayzdave]

i'm trying to figure out the cost of the other forms that comes with multiform. i understand that the most expensive form gets a number of Character Points equal to however many points the base form pays multiplied by 5 (i.e. 70pts = 350pts to work with for the most expensive alternate form). however, i don't know how many points the other forms get to work with.

 

some help would be great.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

Up to 350 Points in your example.

 

All forms get as many points as the most expensive form, or however many they need, whichever is less.

 

If Animal Man has a 350 point Dinosaur form and a 150 point Wolf form then he pays 70pts + 5pts for x2 Forms.

If both his forms are 350 point forms he pays 70pts + 5pts for x2 Forms.

[krayzdave]

Re: Multiform

 

so what about a character who is built with 150 and wants a 350pt form (aside from game balance issues) and another form with 200pts?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform

 

He pays 70 points for the base 350 point form, and +5 for having two forms.

 

Note, however, that his forms have the same base points as he does. Assuming he has 75 base points and 75 in disdvantages, that 350 point form has 75 base points and needs 275 points in disadvantages (even assuming the GM is prepared to allow a 350 point Form given the game balance issues you note).

[krayzdave]

Re: Multiform

 

so everything over the character base cost is made up for in disads?

 

that seems silly. it isn't even a power then.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

so everything over the character base cost is made up for in disads?

 

that seems silly. it isn't even a power then.

 

Disads or Experience if the extra and larger forms are acquired in game.

 

It is very much a Power, the Disadvantage requirement goes towards helping that potential game balance issue you noted.

 

The GM is free, of course, to not require the additional 200pts be made up in Disadvantages. But that's a GM call I suggest be made on a case by case basis.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Multiform

 

Further, it's important to note that among "things that are easy to break" Multiform is on the list; as a house rule we generally don't allow Multiform characters to go beyond their base form in total value, because it's so INSANELY cheap. It's one of those powers that exists far more as a Superheroic level power than a Heroic one, although there are plenty of "shape-shifting magics" that an end user can use Multiform to simulate, most of the "You're a frog!" magics use Transform. Thank Heavens.

 

And no, I doubt you would want to use Multiform/UBO as that will also cause massive game balance issues. But when Reality Czech built Anima and Anima's various forms, we all came to the conclusion that building the forms was the hard part; buying the damn power was dirt bleeding cheap. So we capped his total available points per form to the current campaign limit, and then he could improve them with XP and GM permission later on.

[Cancer]

Re: Multiform

 

As someone who plays a Multiform character whose base form is Nothing Special (lots of noncombat stuff), though, I live in dread of the day the GM hits me with an adequately strong Dispel or Suppress.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Multiform

 

As someone who plays a Multiform character whose base form is Nothing Special (lots of noncombat stuff)' date=' though, I live in dread of the day the GM hits me with an adequately strong Dispel or Suppress.[/quote']

 

See, but I consider this that weird 'metagame' thinking that people seem to think in with the HERO system; "Well, you can do whatever because the GM can always counter it."

 

What if that isn't part of the core design of the campaign? I'm not saying you can't come up with a really nifty rationalization for Suppressing Multi-Form powers; maybe I'm just not creative enough, yeah? Near as I can see it, this is one of those weird self-perpetuation arms races. It makes more sense, to me, to make sure things are reasonably balanced from the get-go, rather than trying to shoe-horn a "counter measure" for the PCs on the GM side.

 

Or I may be reading too much into your post.

[Cancer]

Re: Multiform

 

Well, this Multiformer is in a Champions campaign, and the form-change is induced by him taking a power pill. When I signed on I figured that someday there'd be an anti-power drug dart in his future; that is perfectly in genre. Hasn't happened yet, but there's no reason it can't and it's fair game when it does. (I'd feel the same way in a Fantasy campaign with a magic-based Multiform; counterspells are again perfectly in genre.)

 

When it does happen, I'll want to talk with him about rules, since the situation hasn't come up before. I assume Dispel on a Multiform that's bought with the disadvantage "Each form can be used a maximum of once in 24 hours" reverts him to base form immediately, but he can transform immediately back to any other form he hasn't used too recently. But I also assume a Suppress works on the entire transformation process, and prevents him from entering another form as long as the Suppress is in effect.

 

I'm trying to keep the guy balanced and appropriate for the campaign, and I run everything past the co-GMs first. So far, he is far from being anywhere near the lead in the group's Munchkin Derby.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Multiform

 

Here are two rules of thumb for keeping game balance w/ Multiform:

 

1) Don't allow any forms to have more points than the base form.

 

2) Require the player to put 1 xp out of every 6 (and no more) into the Multiform to keep everything in sync.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Multiform

 

He pays 70 points for the base 350 point form, and +5 for having two forms.

 

Note, however, that his forms have the same base points as he does. Assuming he has 75 base points and 75 in disdvantages, that 350 point form has 75 base points and needs 275 points in disadvantages (even assuming the GM is prepared to allow a 350 point Form given the game balance issues you note).

 

per rules FAQ:

Multiforms are built on the same Base Points as the original. The Multiform in this case is built on 200 Base Points. If it’s a 250-point form, it needs 50 points of Disadvantages.

A 400-point form (costing 80 of the true form’s Character/Experience Points) would have 200 Base Points, and need 200 points of Disadvantages.

 

Alternately, with the GM’s permission, you could give it fewer Disadvantage points, then increase its “strength” by spending additional Experience Points on the Multiform power itself (as described above). For example, you could buy it at the standard 350 point (200 Base/150 Disadvantages) level for 70 points, requiring the Multiform to have 150 points of Disadvantages. Then, by spending an additional 10 of the true form’s Experience Points, you could buy the form up to 400 points total. Here again, the cost is (70+10) 80 of the true form’s Character/Experience Points.

 

In short, either through the form’s Disadvantages, or the expenditure of the true form’s Experience Points, you have to account for the points in a Multiform. And the true form has to pay for those points.

[Curufea]

Re: Multiform

 

See, but I consider this that weird 'metagame' thinking that people seem to think in with the HERO system; "Well, you can do whatever because the GM can always counter it."

 

What if that isn't part of the core design of the campaign? I'm not saying you can't come up with a really nifty rationalization for Suppressing Multi-Form powers; maybe I'm just not creative enough, yeah? Near as I can see it, this is one of those weird self-perpetuation arms races. It makes more sense, to me, to make sure things are reasonably balanced from the get-go, rather than trying to shoe-horn a "counter measure" for the PCs on the GM side.

 

Or I may be reading too much into your post.

 

Silver chains to stop a vampire turning to mist or bat, or a werewolf changing come to mind