When success is a failure

[kjamma4]

No real point to this but here goes…

I was rereading the Time Wars series by Simon Hawke. It is a series of books following the adventures of time commandos from the 27th century who travel in time on “adjustments” – missions where they have to ensure that the timestream remains stable despite the actions of terrorists who want to create havoc.

One of the central themes is “No one understands temporal/zen physics.” This usually pops up when there is a possible time paradox such as the Grandfather Paradox

[*]. The characters try to think about or explain a paradox and generally get a headache trying to figure out what is going on.

In game terms, I would give the characters a skill showing how much they understand about time travel and about possible paradoxes (paradoxi?). A failure means they don’t understand. A regular success means they get some clue as to what is going on. A great success means that they understand the problem but, because “No one understands temporal/zen physics”, they are worse off because the realization of the potential paradox leads them to further confusion or despair of the enormity of the problem - THE DISRUPTION OF THE VERY FABRIC OF TIME ITSELF.

So, a person with a high skill actually has more of a chance to become befuddled!!!

[*] What happens if you go back in time and kill your grandfather prior to your father being born? Well if you grandfather is dead, your father will never be born. This means you will never be born. If you are never born, how can you go back in time to kill your grandfather?

[Dust Raven]

Re: When success is a failure

 

It sounds to me like this should simply be a normal function of the Skill. Create a system (such as when the roll is a 3, or when any roll is made by 10 or more) to determine the unusually high success. Players purchase the Skill knowing that's the rule and it's at their own risk for increasing the Skill Roll with XP.

[Sean Waters]

Re: When success is a failure

 

I'd say all you need is a campaign rule that successful rolls that exceed what was needed by 5 or more result in a 2d6 INT drain, and provide no useful information.

 

Doesn't sound like much fun though

 

In fact it sounds almost like Call of Cthulu, so no fun at all then.

[Jaxom]

Re: When success is a failure

 

Alternatively, use the roll to define the SFX.

 

A failure is a failure. A success is a success.

 

If you fail with an even roll, you don't understand enough to explain. If you fail with an odd roll, you over-analyze and get tired-head. Or maybe the player gets to decide which is which...

 

The problem with this is that it means that a player who wants to be an expert in "temporal/zen physics" spends fewer points on it than someone who wants to be ok at it. And someone who wants to "become and expert" needs to be allowed to remove points from the skill at some point.

[Maur]

Re: When success is a failure

 

Fail - You can't understand

Succeed - You understand, but it gets muddled in the timey-wimy ball of timey-wimy stuff...

Succeed by half (7- on a 14- skill check) - You really understand and see the ball of timey-wimy stuff, but get so lost in the comprehension as to lead to inaction.

[casualplayer]

Re: When success is a failure

 

If you go back in time and kill the man you believed to be your grandfather and you're still around, then Grandma was intimate with the mailman.

 

Temporal physics would come up with its own jargon and idiom that would be impenetrable to most. Mostly you would either grok it or you don't.

 

The players' skill level should indicate their grokitude, and nothing is more frustrating for a player than to have the dice make them look a fool when their character concept is that of an expert. I would keep the dice rolls to a minimum unless it was an especially stressful moment.

[Maur]

Re: When success is a failure

 

Or in killing your grandfather the timeline splits creating a new alternate future and you can't get back to the future from which you came. Marty McFly experienced this when he changed his parents past. When he got home after his first adventure his parents were more outgoing. His brother was more successful. His sister was happier and more liked. And Biff was a two-bit tow truck driver.

 

Granted in that same movie he almost disappeared ("Erased... from existence") because of his meddling, but that is Hollywood creating tension and drama. Until we can actually travel in time then the best you can do is come up with your own idea for how things like Paradoxes will be resolved and just go from there.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: When success is a failure

 

'Nobody understands temporal physics.' I like this. I think it should be rephrased, though: 'Nobody can explain temporal physics.'

 

If the character rolls that 3 or gets 10+ over the target number, they understand it -- but they can't explain it. Any explanation they try to give would only befuddle those listening (unless, of course, they made a 3, 10+, whatever). It isn't that they don't understand it; they just can't explain it. Like you said, it's a Zen thing.

 

"Master, in the winter it is too cold, and in the summer it is too hot. What is one to do?"

"From here, stop that boat from moving across the water."

 

If you understand, you can try to explain the multiple layers of meanings to someone who does not, but there's a very good chance they'll start saying, 'Huh? Wait a second...' So it is with temporal physics. If they try to explain their comprehension to those around them, let everyone else be utterly baffled. But don't penalize them for getting a primo success; just let it do little more than the regular success does.

 

Conversely, if that happens to be a problem that they actually have to paradoctor ("A paradox can be paradoctored." R.A. Heinlein) and someone manages to get that level of success, figure out something utterly off the wall for them to do. They UNDERSTAND how to fix it, and when, and where, but they can't explain how they understand -- or how what they'll do will fix the problem. Write a note to explain what they should do, fold it over and note that this is the 'Temp. Physics 10+ roll' note, then wait for an appropriate time. At that point, turn it over to the player. 'Your character understands that s/he has to go to Room 2B-144 and flip the second switch to the left between eighteen and twenty minutes from now.'

 

Hilarity ensues.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: When success is a failure

 

'Nobody understands temporal physics.' I like this. I think it should be rephrased, though: 'Nobody can explain temporal physics.'

 

If the character rolls that 3 or gets 10+ over the target number, they understand it -- but they can't explain it. Any explanation they try to give would only befuddle those listening (unless, of course, they made a 3, 10+, whatever). It isn't that they don't understand it; they just can't explain it. Like you said, it's a Zen thing.

 

"Master, in the winter it is too cold, and in the summer it is too hot. What is one to do?"

"From here, stop that boat from moving across the water."

 

If you understand, you can try to explain the multiple layers of meanings to someone who does not, but there's a very good chance they'll start saying, 'Huh? Wait a second...' So it is with temporal physics. If they try to explain their comprehension to those around them, let everyone else be utterly baffled. But don't penalize them for getting a primo success; just let it do little more than the regular success does.

 

Conversely, if that happens to be a problem that they actually have to paradoctor ("A paradox can be paradoctored." R.A. Heinlein) and someone manages to get that level of success, figure out something utterly off the wall for them to do. They UNDERSTAND how to fix it, and when, and where, but they can't explain how they understand -- or how what they'll do will fix the problem. Write a note to explain what they should do, fold it over and note that this is the 'Temp. Physics 10+ roll' note, then wait for an appropriate time. At that point, turn it over to the player. 'Your character understands that s/he has to go to Room 2B-144 and flip the second switch to the left between eighteen and twenty minutes from now.'

 

Hilarity ensues.

 

Some EXCELLENT suggestions there! Repped!

[dstarfire]

Re: When success is a failure

 

As for the rules issue, use a logarithmic scale to link success level with results. Thus: succeeding by 7 is little different than succeeding by 6, while succedding by 3 is much better than succeeding by 1.

 

As my dimensional manipulator (who DOES understand multi-dimensional, and hence temporal, physics) would say ...

 

Bah, stupid neanderthals. The reason "nobody can understand temporal physics" is because you persist in viewing it as a single axis along which everybody travels together. This is simply not the case.

 

To use the example, if you go back and kill your grandfather, you'll still exist, you'd just be a complete stranger to the entire world. You'd still remember your own childhood and past since you acquired those memories while in the timeline where your grandfather didn't suffer an untimely death.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: When success is a failure

 

A way taken by the RPG 'Feng Shui'. Or that you're no longer known as 'Jack Bauer', but 'Jack Mohr', with a vaguely background, a vaguely similar wife, but descended from somebody else.

[Comic]

Re: When success is a failure

 

This is the explanation of Zen:

 

There is no explanation of Zen.

[kjamma4]

Re: When success is a failure

 

If the character rolls that 3 or gets 10+ over the target number' date=' they [i']understand[/i] it -- but they can't explain it. Any explanation they try to give would only befuddle those listening (unless, of course, they made a 3, 10+, whatever). It isn't that they don't understand it; they just can't explain it. Like you said, it's a Zen thing.

 

If you understand, you can try to explain the multiple layers of meanings to someone who does not, but there's a very good chance they'll start saying, 'Huh? Wait a second...' So it is with temporal physics. If they try to explain their comprehension to those around them, let everyone else be utterly baffled.

 

A oft-used scene in the series is someone explaining the temporal-ness of the situation to someone else. The second person asks the person to repeat themselves and they cannot saying something like, "I'm not sure I understand what I just said either."

 

Translating the series to a game session might involve a lot of "handwavium" but having someone be befuddled in the game might waylay a lot of questions on the inconsistency of time and the existence of paradoxes.