Bracing and Haymaker

[Tech]

Bracing gives you a DCV modifier of 1/2 of your DCV; Haymaker gives you a flat DCV modifier of -5. Assuming a hero with a 24 Dex braces and winds up for a Haymaker, what is the heroes' DCV?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

According to 5ER page 373, "A character's DCV can only be halved once, regardless of how many "halving" modifiers he's subject to." So the hero's DCV would be 4.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

that rule doesn't apply, as there is only one halving being applied.

 

The question is whether the haymaker or the brace is applied first.

 

If you apply the haymaker first, then the DCV is 8 -5 halved or 2.

 

if you apply the brace first, the DCV is 8 halved - 5 which would be -1, but combat maneuvers cannot reduce the DCV to below 0, so 0.

[archermoo]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

According to the DCV checklist on p372-373 of 5ER, the Haymaker mod will come first, and then the Braced. Halving modifiers are applied last.

 

So 8 - 5 = 3 / 2 = 2.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

I'm not entirely sure.

 

Braced is listed as both a DCV modifier and a combat maneuver, so it is ambiguous as to which order it should be.

[archermoo]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

I'm not entirely sure.

 

Braced is listed as both a DCV modifier and a combat maneuver, so it is ambiguous as to which order it should be.

 

The wording of step 7) is pretty clear.

 

"Apply any modifiers that halve DCV (or otherwise reduce it by a fraction or percentage)."

 

Any halving is done as the last step.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

a combat maneuver's effects are factored in before phase 7, and there are some combat maneuvers that halve your dcv.

 

so, still ambiguous.

[archermoo]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

a combat maneuver's effects are factored in before phase 7, and there are some combat maneuvers that halve your dcv.

 

so, still ambiguous.

 

I don't see how it is ambiguous. It clearly states that modifiers that halve DCV are factored in at step 7. Bracing halves your DCV. In what way is that unclear?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

that rule doesn't apply' date=' as there is only one halving being applied.[/quote']Sorry, my bad. Wasn't reading carefully enough.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

I don't see how it is ambiguous. It clearly states that modifiers that halve DCV are factored in at step 7. Bracing halves your DCV. In what way is that unclear?

 

It also states that any modifiers for combat maneuvers are applied in step 4.

 

Brace is listed as a combat maneuver.

 

It does not state that any combat maneuvers except those that halve your DCV are applied in step 4, it says any combat maneuvers.

 

Ergo, there are two possible places where the modifier for Brace might be applied. The RAW are ambiguous on this point.

[archermoo]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

It also states that any modifiers for combat maneuvers are applied in step 4.

 

Brace is listed as a combat maneuver.

 

It does not state that any combat maneuvers except those that halve your DCV are applied in step 4, it says any combat maneuvers.

 

Ergo, there are two possible places where the modifier for Brace might be applied. The RAW are ambiguous on this point.

 

Anything that can halve your DCV is either a Combat Maneuver or a Combat Modifier. Both of those have places earlier on the list that they would normally be taken into account. And if there was one that didn't qualify as either of those, step 6 is "Apply any other modifiers", so it would get taken care of there. However the last step states that any modifier that halves DCV, or reduces it by a fraction or percentage gets figured there. If it would be proper for those modifiers to be applied earlier in the list instead, then there is no reason for step 7 to exist, as anything that that step could apply to could also have been taken care of earlier in the list.

 

The only reason for step 7 to exist is as an exception to the normal order that modifiers get resolved. The rules aren't ambiguous. Halving of DCV is the last step, so the DCV modifier for Braced is figured after the -5 for Haymaker.

[MorpheousXO]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

Anything that can halve your DCV is either a Combat Maneuver or a Combat Modifier. Both of those have places earlier on the list that they would normally be taken into account. And if there was one that didn't qualify as either of those, step 6 is "Apply any other modifiers", so it would get taken care of there. However the last step states that any modifier that halves DCV, or reduces it by a fraction or percentage gets figured there. If it would be proper for those modifiers to be applied earlier in the list instead, then there is no reason for step 7 to exist, as anything that that step could apply to could also have been taken care of earlier in the list.

 

The only reason for step 7 to exist is as an exception to the normal order that modifiers get resolved. The rules aren't ambiguous. Halving of DCV is the last step, so the DCV modifier for Braced is figured after the -5 for Haymaker.

 

Hear hear!

[dstarfire]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

You're either overthinking this, bnakagawa, or you're just arguing for the sake of argument. Modifiers from manuevers that are used in combat become - drum roll please - "combat modifiers", and follow the standard CV calculation checklist.

 

If you really want to get technical about it, than when you're applying manuever mods in step 4, you'd apply them according to the same list for all other combat modifiers, thus you'd apply the -5 dcv, then halve the result.

[Tech]

Re: Bracing and Haymaker

 

I'm rather glad I asked this question: it made me aware of a few other rules I wasn't aware of.