New Mechanic: Limbs

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

That's another vote for "what in-game problem is this change directed at solving?". I suspect that question won't be answered' date=' based on historical experience, but I'd be interested in knowing the same thing.[/quote']

It's sad that you have either ignored, missed, or forgotten where I did answer this in other threads.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

This was the point bugging me though' date=' so i thought I'd show myself. So to speak.[/quote']

This is in reference to the Horse vs Snake with 12" Running.

 

This is very good question. The answer is something that the Hero System doesn't adequately handle since it was never meant to simulate real life, but cinematic action. A horse's weight is how many times heavier than a snake's?

 

A Horse without legs would be unable to move.

A Snake with legs would be able to move.

 

Life's design of these two animals is very different, and Hero isn't geared to mechanically handle the difference in those two designs. At best, hero has a kludge.

 

Anyway, this is another reason why I didn't try to link STR or Running to Limbs, since technically in hero terms, you can have them without Limbs.

 

Having more limbs does not help in most situations. Unless you have stretching or somesuch' date=' there is a limit to the number of opponents you could grab and hold at any one time, and a separate limit, based on how much you can split your attention, as to how many you could grab simultaneously.[/quote']

Seem my response above. In a realistic campaign, this is certainly true, but not for a Superheroic campaign. Again, this touches on the whole Human Template limitation as far as splitting ones attention and such. See other thread for more information on Templates.

 

I like the idea of a 'manipulation mechanic', but I'm not sure it needs to be on a 'per limbs' basis....

....Perhaps, rather than defining limb number and type we could go for a more generic approach.

At present that is accomplished by disadvantages. We assume that the basic template allows for more or less perfect manipulation and anything less is a physical disadvantage.

Sean, I've already done a thread on this and was pretty much told I was wasting my time, since there wasn't a use for it in Hero, by those who responded to it.

 

You can do a search on Manipulation and find it.

 

Hero assumes there is no real advantage to having extra limbs' date=' whether it be a few or a lot, and so has a low cost ‘flavour power’ to do it. That approach could stand a little expansion, maybe, but I don’t think it is far off the mark. The actual limbs would be sfx – the ‘power’ is a manipulation one.[/quote']

Now we come full circle where in a thread I claimed that "Extra Limbs" were more SFX than mechanic. (8^D)

 

I was told by Hugh that Extra Limbs were worth a mechanic and were not just SFX.

 

Anyway' date=' an interesting topic, and the sort of thing we should be looking at if we are to understand the inner mysteries [/quote']

That's what I've been doing, but people keep telling me I'm wasting my time and that there isn't any problem. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[casualplayer]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

I hope you are not feeling piled upon, schir1964. I may not always agree with the suggestions that you make but they always inspire an interesting conversation. Thanks.

 

BTW, in your quoted response to me you attributed two of the three quotes to Hugh. May want to fix that.

[Bygoneyrs]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

Boy what a "tough crowd" you folks all are.....geeeehhh!!! I bow to the greater knowledge that many of you might have, but remember folks everyone has their own point of view or perspective to look at things by. Also it is a game and we are all here to have fun too.

 

I must say I have played the Hero's System since Champion's v2 was out(that is when I started playing) and think it is a awesome system, BUT I am NOT a expert in anyway. What I lack in Hero's System knowledge, I make up in GMing ability,style, and time tested gaming and GMing experience. SO hope I can offer a calming voice to many of these chats from time to time.

 

Happy Halloween everyone!

 

Booooooooooooo!!!

 

Penn

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

Boy what a "tough crowd" you folks all are.....geeeehhh!!! I bow to the greater knowledge that many of you might have, but remember folks everyone has their own point of view or perspective to look at things by. Also it is a game and we are all here to have fun too.

 

I must say I have played the Hero's System since Champion's v2 was out(that is when I started playing) and think it is a awesome system, BUT I am NOT a expert in anyway. What I lack in Hero's System knowledge, I make up in GMing ability,style, and time tested gaming and GMing experience. SO hope I can offer a calming voice to many of these chats from time to time.

 

Happy Halloween everyone!

 

Booooooooooooo!!!

 

Penn

 

 

Both Christopher (schir1964) and I like taking stuff apart to se how it works, and I have to say that he is generally far better at putting it back together afterwards than I am

 

Mind you we can always use a calming voice.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

This is in reference to the Horse vs Snake with 12" Running.

 

This is very good question. The answer is something that the Hero System doesn't adequately handle since it was never meant to simulate real life, but cinematic action. A horse's weight is how many times heavier than a snake's?

 

A Horse without legs would be unable to move.

A Snake with legs would be able to move.

 

Life's design of these two animals is very different, and Hero isn't geared to mechanically handle the difference in those two designs. At best, hero has a kludge.

 

Special Effects, HERO handles it quite nicely.

 

Putting legs on a snake . . . probably wouldn't get it to move given weight distribution on a snake isn't designed to be placed on 2-4 points like a Horse is. I doubt a snake with legs would move, or rather - it wouldn't be a snake, it'd be something else.

 

BTW, there are several species of snake that get up to ~200kg or more. Some at least some snakes can get to half the weight of some species horse.

 

I don't see how Hero doesn't handle the two versions of locomotion well... or why weight is being linked to it since Hero doesn't do that now. Are you proposing it should? It Movement now going too be a figured characteristic based on Weight?

 

Hero Mechanics don't care HOW you move - just that everyone starts with 6 Game Inches of it. Whether that's by legs, slithering, rolling, skipping, hopping or what have you - that's the Special Effect you assign your Running.

 

Why are Base Abilities exempt from the standard Special Effects rules? You have to assign them just like anything else. Just so happens that Humans like to play Humans a lot, so we tend to default to that state.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

BTW' date=' there are several species of snake that get up to ~200kg or more. Some at least some snakes can get to half the weight of some species horse.[/quote']

Correct, but what I was getting at, is that the design of a horse doesn't allow it to move like a snake.

 

As far as the legs on a snake, there are creatures designed like a snake that have legs that move just fine. But that not the point. I wasn't trying to say that weight alone was the defining factor, it is just one factor. The defining factor is the design. A horse isn't designed to move without legs, so if you wanted to try to express that in Hero Terms I guess it would be expressed as some sort of odd Disadvantage: Requires Legs For Movement. That's why I said that Hero wasn't meant to simulate such real life things.

 

I don't see how Hero doesn't handle the two versions of locomotion well... or why weight is being linked to it since Hero doesn't do that now. Are you proposing it should? It Movement now going too be a figured characteristic based on Weight?

Weight is only a factor in that Weight is tied to STR, yet the Template presumes that whatever starting weight you begin with, your starting STR, whatever level it is at, automatically handles your own weight.

 

Now this oddity may have already been addressed in some supplement, but the just with the main book, two starting characters with 10 STR, and first one's weight is 100 Kg and the second one's weight is 200 Kg, the rules don't automatically require that the second be hampered by his weight. In real life, that difference in weight does play big factor.

 

So Hero wasn't meant to simulate real life and all of it's subtleties.

 

Hero Mechanics don't care HOW you move - just that everyone starts with 6 Game Inches of it. Whether that's by legs' date=' slithering, rolling, skipping, hopping or what have you - that's the Special Effect you assign your Running.[/quote']

In a pure mechanical form, it should be this way, but the Human Template rears it's head from different aspect of movement.

 

A character defined to have no legs, how much leaping do they have?

What if the character has legs, but Zero STR, how much leaping do they have?

What if they have legs, 10 STR, but weigh 400 Kgs, how much leaping do they have?

 

Now try mixing any or all of the combinations above.

 

Depending on the GM and his take on these questions, you will get vastly different results for the amount of Leaping.

 

Why are Base Abilities exempt from the standard Special Effects rules? You have to assign them just like anything else. Just so happens that Humans like to play Humans a lot' date=' so we tend to default to that state.[/quote']

I totally agree. That is why I've suggested in the past that the Human Template automatically defines STR as "Bio-Electrical Leverage aka Muscles", but the mechanics don't do that for Stats, so you get weird things like Drain STR, which affects STR regardless of the SFX it should be forced to define.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

Correct, but what I was getting at, is that the design of a horse doesn't allow it to move like a snake.

 

As far as the legs on a snake, there are creatures designed like a snake that have legs that move just fine. But that not the point. I wasn't trying to say that weight alone was the defining factor, it is just one factor. The defining factor is the design. A horse isn't designed to move without legs, so if you wanted to try to express that in Hero Terms I guess it would be expressed as some sort of odd Disadvantage: Requires Legs For Movement. That's why I said that Hero wasn't meant to simulate such real life things.

 

My very simplistic point is that, under the present model, a horse with 4 legs that runs 6" and a snake with 0 legs that runs 6" are functionally identical under the mechanics. Their SFX differ. Your system suggests the horse should pay extra for having four legs. I suggest that he doesn't gain any benefit from those legs, and thus should not have to pay any points for them.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

My very simplistic point is that' date=' under the present model, a horse with 4 legs that runs 6" and a snake with 0 legs that runs 6" are functionally identical under the mechanics. Their SFX differ. Your system suggests the horse should pay extra for having four legs. I suggest that he doesn't gain any benefit from those legs, and thus should not have to pay any points for them.[/quote']

Okay, I can see that point.

 

But if I then build a horse without any legs, I shouldn't worry about taking Disadvantage: No Legs, correct?

 

If I should take the Disadvantage: No Legs, why am I getting points back? What do those points represent if nothing has changed but the description?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

So, what do limbs let you do (or their lack prevent you from doing).

 

Well, here’s a list of things that might or might not be more difficult without appropriate limbs:

 

Grabbing

Striking

Jumping

Moving over rough terrain

Moving at all

Some skill use

 

Here’s some stuff that having extra limbs is useful for:

 

Ignoring or circumventing grabs

Holding lots of stuff simultaneously

 

Can we not build a lot of this with limitations on existing powers?

 

Grabbing/striking – limitations on STR: cannot be used to grab –1/4, cannot be used to strike –1/2

Running (not over rough terrain –1/4)

Cannot move = sell your movement back

Cannot use skills = don’t buy them, or limit DEX (or whatever) for use with those skills

 

We can also do the ‘many limbs’ things with powers:

 

Ignoring or circumventing grabs = extra strength useable to escape grabs or ignore the effects (-1? -1 ½?)

 

Holding lots of stuff does not have a mechanic at present, and neither does holding very little stuff, so maybe there is your market:

 

Can’t hold/manipulate anything = 0 points

Can only hold/manipulate one thing = 5 points

Can hold/manipulate two things = 10 points (standard template)

Each doubling = +5 points

 

You can limit those extra limbs too: reduced strength, reduced manipulation etc.

 

Hero assumes there is no real advantage to having extra limbs, whether it be a few or a lot, and so has a low cost ‘flavour power’ to do it. That approach could stand a little expansion, maybe, but I don’t think it is far off the mark. The actual limbs would be sfx – the ‘power’ is a manipulation one.

 

You could, potentially, also buy this for, say telekinesis, if you wanted to be able to manipulate several objects at once.

 

Mind you if you DID adopt this sort of approach you’d have to remove the ‘disadvantages’ route. Surely almost every physical limitation could be ‘done’ with powers and limitations, but it IS a very convenient shorthand.

 

Anyway, an interesting topic, and the sort of thing we should be looking at if we are to understand the inner mysteries

[thread=47599]Manipulation[/thread]

 

Just for you reference.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

A character defined to have no legs, how much leaping do they have?

What if the character has legs, but Zero STR, how much leaping do they have?

What if they have legs, 10 STR, but weigh 400 Kgs, how much leaping do they have?

 

The Paradise Tree Snake (native to China) can leap, it leaps from tree to tree. No legs.

Elephants have legs, are very strong, can't leap.

 

As for Leaping being coupled to STR:

5ER p35 - Size Mass And Leaping Sidebar. Optional Rule but existing in the system already.

 

Mechanically we also represent the ability to Leap (or Not Leap) with the Leaping Power.

 

If you're suggesting decoupling the Base Leaping derived from STR you have my attention.

 

Otherwise this still has nothing to do with "Templates" or the perceived "human template" that you have not convinced me exists.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

Okay, I can see that point.

 

But if I then build a horse without any legs, I shouldn't worry about taking Disadvantage: No Legs, correct?

 

If I should take the Disadvantage: No Legs, why am I getting points back? What do those points represent if nothing has changed but the description?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

It wouldn't be a Horse would it? It'd be a legless animal that has non-leg Locomotion.

 

If it is a Horse still, then removing the legs modifies it to a Legless Horse, making it different from a Standard Horse, making the Disadvantage worth points as it has deviated from the baseline SFX.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

My very simplistic point is that' date=' under the present model, a horse with 4 legs that runs 6" and a snake with 0 legs that runs 6" are functionally identical under the mechanics. Their SFX differ. Your system suggests the horse should pay extra for having four legs. I suggest that he doesn't gain any benefit from those legs, and thus should not have to pay any points for them.[/quote']

Now to get into some more details.

 

Horse with 4 Legs:

Kick - Damage at Range

Height - Vertical Reach

Leap - Vertical Movement

 

Snake with 1 Leg (Body Serves as a Limb as far as SFX is concerned):

Hit - Damage at Range (Although Damage is from Fangs not from kinetic force so it is not really Damage At Range as far as limbs are concerned).

Height - Vertical Reach

Leap - ??? (Not sure if I'd allow it but other GMs might. I've never seen anything in real life from a snake that I would classify as leaping, but others may have)

 

Anyway, you've made a good point. I've updated the costs and values of the Limb Structure.

 

Snake (1 Limb): 1 Point

Horse (4 Limbs): 3 Points

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

A character defined to have no legs, how much leaping do they have?

What if the character has legs, but Zero STR, how much leaping do they have?

What if they have legs, 10 STR, but weigh 400 Kgs, how much leaping do they have?

 

Oh to really answer these questions:

Leaping Provided By STR + Extra Leaping Purchased.

Leaping Provided By STR + Extra Leaping Purchased.

Base Ruleset: 2" + Extra Leaping Purchased. / Optional Rule on p35: 0" + Extra Leaping Purchased.

 

Legs are only one Special Effect you can use for Leaping. I'm assuming that Leaping SFX are appropriate to whatever is being built given the complete lack of actual information in these questions beyond a Mechanical Resolution available to me in the last query.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

It wouldn't be a Horse would it? It'd be a legless animal that has non-leg Locomotion.

 

If it is a Horse still, then removing the legs modifies it to a Legless Horse, making it different from a Standard Horse, making the Disadvantage worth points as it has deviated from the baseline SFX.

Unfortunately, genetic defects allow for the legless horse to exist. It doesn't change the fact that it is still a horse.

 

If it hasn't changed anything mechanically, is it not just Flavor text as some have suggested?

 

If the Character Template isn't Human biased and just Raw Mechanics, then we should be able build anything using just the Raw Mechanics. The fact that a SFX says something is Living or Non-Living shouldn't make a difference for Raw Mechanics that have no bias.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

Legs are only one Special Effect you can use for Leaping. I'm assuming that Leaping SFX are appropriate to whatever is being built given the complete lack of actual information in these questions beyond a Mechanical Resolution available to me in the last query.

Also note that you an sell back Running, and you can sell back Swimming, but it is illegal to sell back Leaping.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

Unfortunately, genetic defects allow for the legless horse to exist. It doesn't change the fact that it is still a horse.

 

If it hasn't changed anything mechanically, is it not just Flavor text as some have suggested?

 

Your legless horse is amazingly able to run at the same speed as the horse with 4 legs. Since you have made no mechanical change, it must have some SFX (which you need to define) enabling it to maintain its ground movement without its legs. It is an exceptional legless horse.

 

If Limbs allow you to strike in HTH, how do we define the horse's neck, with which it can reach out its head to butt or bite just as effectively as reaching out a foreleg to attack?

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

Also note that you an sell back Running, and you can sell back Swimming, but it is illegal to sell back Leaping.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

You can sell back your Base Leaping. 5ER p39 bottom of the page.

 

I think the problem is you're not completely familiar with the ruleset that you are proposing changes to.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

Unfortunately, genetic defects allow for the legless horse to exist. It doesn't change the fact that it is still a horse.

 

If it hasn't changed anything mechanically, is it not just Flavor text as some have suggested?

 

If the Character Template isn't Human biased and just Raw Mechanics, then we should be able build anything using just the Raw Mechanics. The fact that a SFX says something is Living or Non-Living shouldn't make a difference for Raw Mechanics that have no bias.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

As Hugh pointed out it is either an exceptional Horse are you have to do something to mechanically represent a Legless Horse: Selling back Movement and adding a Disadvantage to note it's leglessness.

 

You cannot, in any sane game, simply declare yourself a Legless Being that normally has Legs as it's form of locomotion and be expected to keep that locomotion without some other explanation.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

I've been through the desert on a horse with no legs.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

I've been through the desert on a horse with no legs.

 

Did it feel good to be out of the rain?

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

You can sell back your Base Leaping. 5ER p39 bottom of the page.

 

I think the problem is you're not completely familiar with the ruleset that you are proposing changes to.

It's not that I'm unfamiliar with the rule set, I just keep running into rules that Steve Long has changed his mind on. When I asked him about this for the 5th Edition Template Software, he said you had to take a disadvantage for no leaping and couldn't sell back the Leaping inches that is derived from STR. His rationale was that Derived Values (not Figured Stats) weren't Stats, so you could not sell back you Base OCV, DCV, Lift, Leaping, and so forth independently because they are derived values unlike Running, and Swimming. Didn't make much sense to me for Leaping, but there you go.

 

Obviously, he changed his mind at some point from 5th Edition to 5th Edition Revised.

 

If he had made these kind of decisions from the start, it would have made my work a lot easier for the Software Template.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

Meh, I've always considered Leaping a stat you could sell back. Steve's early thoughts aside. 5ER just made a specific point of saying it out loud.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

It's not that I'm unfamiliar with the rule set, I just keep running into rules that Steve Long has changed his mind on. When I asked him about this for the 5th Edition Template Software, he said you had to take a disadvantage for no leaping and couldn't sell back the Leaping inches that is derived from STR. His rationale was that Derived Values (not Figured Stats) weren't Stats, so you could not sell back you Base OCV, DCV, Lift, Leaping, and so forth independently because they are derived values unlike Running, and Swimming. Didn't make much sense to me for Leaping, but there you go.

 

Obviously, he changed his mind at some point from 5th Edition to 5th Edition Revised.

 

If he had made these kind of decisions from the start, it would have made my work a lot easier for the Software Template.

 

I think making "can't leap" a disadvantage, as it appears in some early products, was a strange approach, especially when the disadvantage simply equaled the cost of the leaping the character would otherwise have had. Fixing this improved consistency, which I consider a good thing.

 

I also don't see "on further reflection, this is a better approach, so the rule has been changed" as a negative. Ideally, everything would be perfect from the outset, but the world is not an ideal place. If the decisions had all been correct and perfect at the outset, we would all be playing 1e, since any changes would have made it less perfect.

[Era Scarecrow]

Re: New Mechanic: Limbs

 

It wouldn't be a Horse would it? It'd be a legless animal that has non-leg Locomotion.

 

If it is a Horse still, then removing the legs modifies it to a Legless Horse, making it different from a Standard Horse, making the Disadvantage worth points as it has deviated from the baseline SFX.

 

Wait a minute, so i can buy back my legs and still get my movement? Rock on! (25 pts )

 

a note, i haven't read all the thread, so i will probably post a second time to add/augment this one. If i reference something already close, ignore it then and i will do the same.

 

schir1964, in reference to extra limbs, what do they really help you with? With the standard power it references you can 'hold' more items, or you can buy it to help simulate attacking with extra limbs.

However.. If you buy a PSL:+4 Vs Sweep, you can attack 3 times every round at 1/2 DCV, as i understand it. So having a +1PSL per extra limb doesn't really seem like it would help that much compared to paying for the PSL up front. (Except when you start doubling and doubling all your limbs to 1000, then sweep 500 times instead of a 1000 for the giant milipede, and doing buko damage)

 

And referencing to the 'standard template' as incomplete or having multiple templates, we need to consider a few things. The standard template you get close to 75pts free (exact amount i'm not sure on, but i'll find a figure later), Most animals/creatures have some form of manipulation, and movement. Most animals can see. Most animals can hear. Most animals target with their eyes/ears/nose, or some combination of the three. Most animals (not insects, although sea life is different) have multiple limbs, usually 4.

 

I know for a fact the weight ratio for a cat and his jump is quite large compared to a human. And cats can't manipulate a keyboard (probably out of lack of interest in learning english and chatting online), but can easily pick up a string or manipulate simple small objects that they want to play with.

 

Referencing making classes in here, i'd perfer not to. I don't want to see hero's turn into D&D. Pay the points for what it's worth and take it as it comes.

 

Perhaps the real thing that it comes to, is the system mechanics. The mechanics are quite simply, broken down simple parts of rules. They tried to not duplicate multiple times something that they only needed to build once. I'm sure they realized, building a lot of creatures and items would be hard, if they had different parts connected (figured characteristics for running), so they only connected what had to be connected. Also, that you can only manipulate so many things at a time which is why the original rule was only 5pt for however many extra limbs you want.

(they don't offer sweep or str bonuses, and as referenced before, they don't really help that much after so many and can be referenced as sfx instead of exact manipulation and payoff of each limb).