Overhauling characteristics

[Sean Waters]

Sorry, another long post, and I know it is never going to happen, but here it is for your kind consideration, and general discussion.

 

The following characteristics all start at base 10 for a character, and you can buy them up or down at the stated cost per point.

 

STR: Cost 2 points per point. You can buy partial strength (not the same as limited strength) as follows:

 

5 points for +1d6 damage from STR based manoeuvres

5 points for +5 STR for lifting/throwing/holding on/feats of STR and STR rolls

 

DEX: Cost 3 per point. You can buy partial dexterity as follows:

 

5 points for +1 OCV

5 points for +1 DCV

5 points for DEX rolls

1 point for +1 to determine DEX order in combat

 

Obviously it is cheaper to buy DEX as a package than the individual components.

 

CON: Costs 1 point per point

 

BODY: Costs 1 point per point

 

INT: This is gone, to be replaced with a new set of general everyman PER skills (see below) and a series of talents (see below).

 

EGO: Costs 2 points per 1 point and you can buy partial EGO as follows:

 

5 points for +1 EOCV

5 points for +1 EDCV

5 points for general use (determining Mental Defence and to resisting PRE attacks, and making any EGO based skill rolls)

1 point for +1 to determine EGO order of combat.

 

As with DEX it is cheaper to buy EGO than to buy the individual components. In campaigns that rely heavily on mental combat you might consider increasing the cost to 3 points per point.

 

PRE: Costs 2 points per point. The cost is too low because it costs 5 points for +1 to all PRE based skills already, and you also get the advantage of being able to make a more effective PRE attack, or defend against the same. You can buy PRE partially:

 

5 points for +1 with all PRE based skills

5 points for +1d6 PRE attack and +5 PRE defence

 

COM: This is gone to be replaced by a series of talents and disadvantages (see below)

 

All the current ‘figured characteristics remain at the same point cost as at present, but you can buy as many as you like down, rather than just one as at present. They have the following ‘base’ values:

 

PD 2

ED 2

SPD 2

REC 4

END 20

 

STUN 20

 

Obviously this means that characters will be more expensive as they would have to buy up these characteristics to the levels that they would normally have if they were figured, and this is not offset by cheaper primary characteristics – indeed if anything primary characteristics will now be more expensive. The GM might want to allow 10-20% more character points to make up the difference.

 

Replacing INT:

 

NEW SKILL: General intelligence: This is the ability to apply information from memory or your environment to solve problems or draw conclusions. It has a starting value of 11-. You can sell that back to 8- and gain2 points or not have the skill and gain 3 points. It can be used in place of any other intelligence based skill at a –3 non-proficiency penalty, with GM permission.

 

All INT skills are considered to have a base of 11-.

 

The following Talents can be purchased:

 

Smart: +1 with all intelligence based skills 5 points. You can buy more than one level of Smart, and re-label it if you like: 5 levels might be called Genius.

 

Well educated: +1 with all intelligence based skills, memory based (-1/2) 3 points

 

Sharp: + 1 with all intelligence based skills, reasoning based (-1/2) 3 points.

 

In addition you can buy these talents with additional limitations:

 

Only for a related group of intelligence based skills: -1/2 (so Smart would then cost 3 points, and Well educated or Sharp would cost 2)

 

Only for a single skill: -2 (so Smart would then cost 2 points and Well educated or Sharp would cost 1 point)

 

NEW SKILL: Perception: This is the ability to notice information in your environment. You might need a separate general intelligence or skill roll to apply the information you notice. The base value is 11-. You can sell back the base value to 8- and gain 2 points or lose the skill entirely and gain 3 points. You can do this for each sense group you possess (so a normal starting character with no normal senses would gain 15 points). You can increase your PER skill as follows: for 3 points all PER skills for all senses are simultaneously increased. For 2 points all PER skills for all PER skills in a single sense group are increased and for 1 point the PER roll with a single sense is increased.

 

Replacing COM

 

 

Your appearance, voice etc is assumed to be subsumed by your PRE score generally buy you can buy talents to reflect good looks, a persuasive voice or manner etc.

 

Good looking: +1 with all PRE based skills 5 points, looks based –1/2, reversible* -1/4: 3 points

 

Stunning looks: +5 PRE for PRE attack only -1, looks based –1/2: 2 points

 

You can do something similar with a pleasant voice (voice based), frightening appearance (fear based) or even something like (logic based) or (emotion) for someone who can argue a point to a logical conclusion or alternatively appeal to the emotions of their listener; a rabble rouser.

 

You can also limit your ability to influence other people by purchasing a negative version of one of the abilities:

 

Sickening appearance: -3 to PRE based skills (-15 points), looks based –1/2: 10 points.

 

You should only ever buy 1 ‘negative PRE’ – if you want more you wither take them as colour (and only get points for the largest) or buy down your PRE if you want to be more generally disgusting.

 

If you never get a positive reaction you can either sell back your everyman skills or take a physical limitation/distinctive features/social limitation disadvantage. Or both

 

 

 

*Reversible is a new limitation. Generally the ability will work for you but in a small minority of cases it will cause the opposite effect – for instance if you are good looking, people will generally be well disposed toward you but occasionally someone will resent you for your good looks, and the bonus you would normally receive may now be applied as a penalty.

 

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Hmmm....The only stat I really think is currently priced wrong is STR. Endless reading of the threads advocating the cost be raised to 2/1 have finally had their effect.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Hmmm....The only stat I really think is currently priced wrong is STR. Endless reading of the threads advocating the cost be raised to 2/1 have finally had their effect.

 

If STR is underpriced, then I think CON must be too - the figured characteristics are worth a great deal

 

I've not really thought of DEX as particularly underpriced, but if you look at the cost of increasing OCV, DCV and skill levels it probably is, and I'd really not thought of PRE as underpriced, but again, it costs 5 points to improve all PRE skills by +1 and +5 PRE gives you so much more.

 

Disconnecting 'figured' characteristics also makes the whole process a lot more transparent, although chacter creation then becomes more expensive.

 

Like I say, I know it is too fundamental a change to ever actually happen but I thought it might stimulate some discussion.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Sorry' date=' another long post, and I know it is never going to happen, but here it is for your kind consideration, and general discussion.[/size']

 

The following characteristics all start at base 10 for a character, and you can buy them up or down at the stated cost per point.

 

STR: Cost 2 points per point. You can buy partial strength (not the same as limited strength) as follows:

 

5 points for +1d6 damage from STR based manoeuvres

5 points for +5 STR for lifting/throwing/holding on/feats of STR and STR rolls

 

This significantly increases the cost of STR. Beyond the doubling, it also eliminates the figured characteristics. That may or may not work out, however.

 

I suspect far more players will pay 5 points for +1 DC (and I am assuming that +1d6 is +1 DC) than for feats of strength. I would suggest two possible fixes. One is that the mix of cost be changed, but that would mean +1 DC costing more than 5 points, which I dislike. The other would mean making STR cost, perhaps, 1.5 points and resetting the "feats of STR" cost to 3 points.

 

A third approach might be making the +1 DC a hand attack equivalent. It would add to damage from a punch, or a squeeze, or an boost HKA's. However, feats of STR would add to the non-damaging aspects of STR, such as maintaining or escaping a Grab. It also seems strange that a character with 10 STR, +60 for damage, does 14d6 with a Throw but can't throw a normal person more than a few feet.

 

DEX: Cost 3 per point. You can buy partial dexterity as follows:

 

5 points for +1 OCV

5 points for +1 DCV

5 points for DEX rolls

1 point for +1 to determine DEX order in combat

 

Obviously it is cheaper to buy DEX as a package than the individual components.

 

Why should it be markedly cheaper to buy DEX as a package? 15 DEX for 45 points vs +5 OCV for 25, +5 DCV for 25, +3 to DEX rolls for 15 and +15 to combat order for 15 totals 80 points, almost a 50% discount. This effectively returns the "figured characteristic" debate.

 

I realize part of the goal is to avoid making skill levels inordinately expensive compared to DEX and its components, but maybe that goal needs to be accomplished by repricing skill levels. Or maybe it must be done by acknowledging that, in the absence of Normal Characteristics Maxima, skill levels ARE a lousy deal.

 

Also, the elimination of figured characteristics here grosses up the cost of DEX from 2 points to 3 points, since no one ever fails to build up SPD, so you are effectively enhancing the cost of DEX.

 

 

CON: Costs 1 point per point

 

Does CON really do all that much besides reduce the likelihood of being Stunned? Its only significant contribution is figured characteristics. It could be reduced to 1/2 point per CON, or we could find something else (maybe a multiple of REC?) to base the likelihood of being Stunned on.

 

BODY: Costs 1 point per point

 

This is effectively no change, as you currently pay 2 points and get a point of STUN in the deal, so no concerns here.

 

 

INT: This is gone' date=' to be replaced with a new set of general everyman PER skills (see below) and a series of talents (see below).[/size']

 

I like having a stat that says how smart the character is.

 

EGO: Costs 2 points per 1 point and you can buy partial EGO as follows:

 

5 points for +1 EOCV

5 points for +1 EDCV

5 points for general use (determining Mental Defence and to resisting PRE attacks, and making any EGO based skill rolls)

1 point for +1 to determine EGO order of combat.

 

As with DEX it is cheaper to buy EGO than to buy the individual components. In campaigns that rely heavily on mental combat you might consider increasing the cost to 3 points per point.

 

This is even worse than DEX for the discount in purchasing the stat. I don't see the point eliminating one set of figured characteristics that are more cheaply purchased through stats only to replace them with another set of figured characteristics that stats offer a much more substantial discount on. Again, the skill level makes it tough to fix this while leaving any benefit to skill levels.

 

PRE: Costs 2 points per point. The cost is too low because it costs 5 points for +1 to all PRE based skills already' date=' and you also get the advantage of being able to make a more effective PRE attack, or defend against the same. You can buy PRE partially:[/size']

 

5 points for +1 with all PRE based skills

5 points for +1d6 PRE attack and +5 PRE defence

 

This implies that +1d6 PRE attack is worth the same as +1 point of mental defense, since I can get +5 defensive PRE from EGO or PRE. Again, this highlights the costing of skill levels issue. Would anyone buy PRE over 20 in a NCM game under this model?

 

 

COM: This is gone to be replaced by a series of talents and disadvantages (see below)

 

COM serves little purpose now.

 

All the current ‘figured characteristics remain at the same point cost as at present' date=' but you can buy as many as you like down, rather than just one as at present. They have the following ‘base’ values:[/size']

 

PD 2

ED 2

SPD 2

REC 4

END 20

 

STUN 20

 

Obviously this means that characters will be more expensive as they would have to buy up these characteristics to the levels that they would normally have if they were figured' date=' and this is not offset by cheaper primary characteristics – indeed if anything primary characteristics will now be more expensive. The GM might want to allow 10-20% more character points to make up the difference.[/size']

 

This presumes a belief characteristics unbalance the game now. If they do not, then characters not reliant on characteristics get a pretty huge boost from that 10 to 20% boost.

 

Also, this change really changes the effectiveness of adjustment powers.

 

 

Replacing INT:

 

NEW SKILL: General intelligence: This is the ability to apply information from memory or your environment to solve problems or draw conclusions. It has a starting value of 11-. You can sell that back to 8- and gain2 points or not have the skill and gain 3 points. It can be used in place of any other intelligence based skill at a –3 non-proficiency penalty, with GM permission.

 

All INT skills are considered to have a base of 11-.

 

The following Talents can be purchased:

 

Smart: +1 with all intelligence based skills 5 points. You can buy more than one level of Smart, and re-label it if you like: 5 levels might be called Genius.

 

Well educated: +1 with all intelligence based skills, memory based (-1/2) 3 points

 

Sharp: + 1 with all intelligence based skills, reasoning based (-1/2) 3 points.

 

In addition you can buy these talents with additional limitations:

 

Only for a related group of intelligence based skills: -1/2 (so Smart would then cost 3 points, and Well educated or Sharp would cost 2)

 

Only for a single skill: -2 (so Smart would then cost 2 points and Well educated or Sharp would cost 1 point)

 

If this is only for a single skill, wouldn't that single skill already be either memory based or reasoning based, such that the second limitation is redundant?

 

NEW SKILL: Perception: This is the ability to notice information in your environment. You might need a separate general intelligence or skill roll to apply the information you notice. The base value is 11-. You can sell back the base value to 8- and gain 2 points or lose the skill entirely and gain 3 points. You can do this for each sense group you possess (so a normal starting character with no normal senses would gain 15 points). You can increase your PER skill as follows: for 3 points all PER skills for all senses are simultaneously increased. For 2 points all PER skills for all PER skills in a single sense group are increased and for 1 point the PER roll with a single sense is increased.

 

This significantly lowers the value of loss of senses as a physical limitation. The cost of INT is now effectively 8 points per +5 INT.

 

 

Replacing COM

 

Your appearance, voice etc is assumed to be subsumed by your PRE score generally buy you can buy talents to reflect good looks, a persuasive voice or manner etc.

 

This makes "Hideous" and "Stunning" the same stat at the same level, which seems a bit counterintuitive. OTOH, COM (and negative COM) have historically simply been PRE modifiers to the extent they've been used for anything, so what's really changed?

 

 

Good looking: +1 with all PRE based skills 5 points' date=' looks based –1/2, reversible* -1/4: 3 points[/size']

 

Stunning looks: +5 PRE for PRE attack only -1, looks based –1/2: 2 points

 

You can do something similar with a pleasant voice (voice based), frightening appearance (fear based) or even something like (logic based) or (emotion) for someone who can argue a point to a logical conclusion or alternatively appeal to the emotions of their listener; a rabble rouser.

 

You can also limit your ability to influence other people by purchasing a negative version of one of the abilities:

 

Sickening appearance: -3 to PRE based skills (-15 points), looks based –1/2: 10 points.

 

You should only ever buy 1 ‘negative PRE’ – if you want more you wither take them as colour (and only get points for the largest) or buy down your PRE if you want to be more generally disgusting.

 

If you never get a positive reaction you can either sell back your everyman skills or take a physical limitation/distinctive features/social limitation disadvantage. Or both

 

*Reversible is a new limitation. Generally the ability will work for you but in a small minority of cases it will cause the opposite effect – for instance if you are good looking, people will generally be well disposed toward you but occasionally someone will resent you for your good looks, and the bonus you would normally receive may now be applied as a penalty.

 

What would be wrong with making COM limited PRE, only for certain effects? The Blonde Bimbo (drop dead gorgeous) is much more likely to succeed with a Seduction or Persuasion roll than she is to make a PRE attack that terrifies the bank robbers, while Captain Horrific's situation is reversed.

 

Sean, how does NCM work under these new provisions. Any NCM for INT or COM seems eliminated, since talents have limitations and stats with limitations don't suffer from NCM. Would there be NCM maxima for the various talents and subsets of some stats as well? If so, skill levels now become a substantial bargain once NCM is hit. To me, this has always been the problem with comparing skill levels to stats. If there is no NCM, stats rule the day (as they do in Super comic books already). If there is NCM, skill levels are priced about right once you get to the NCM, and any change that reduces the cost of skill levels, or boosts the cost of stats, makes skill levels a bargain once we hit the NCM.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

If STR is underpriced' date=' then I think CON must be too - the figured characteristics are worth a great deal [/quote']

 

This depends on what one thinks "resistant to stunning" is worth, doesn't it? STR does far more than add to figured characteristics. CON is more like an EC for figured characteristics.

 

In the past, I've suggested fixing Figured by lowering the cost of REC, END and STUN. They would be added to "defensive abilities" to keep adjustment powers from running rampant. After repricing, the "No Figured" limitation would be reset separately for each stat (-1/2 for DEX and -1 for BOD, as this matches their current values) such that there would be no, or at least very limited, difference between buying the stat and buying the stat "no figured" + the figured's.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Hugh, I'll try any break this up a bit - you make some excellent points.

 

STRENGTH

 

I was thinking that 'Damage' dice would work for strikes, throws, anything that requires the 'fast' application fo strength. I appreciate that the 'damage from throwing' thing is a problem but I figured that would probably sort itself out int hat if you had low throwing strength you probably could not throw an object with enough BODY+DEF to fulful your potential damage anyway. I can think of rules (like throwing damage is based on the AVERAGE of damage+feats STR), but that seems to complicate things. Mind you the problem the other way is more serious - you can lift and throw a tank but it only does a few dice of damage. Clearly that is wrong. I anticipate, however, that damage dice will rarely be significantly lower that 'feats' strength.

 

I agree that STR for holding on and STR for escaping grabs should be besed on the 'Feats of strength' element, so if you just buy 'damage strength' you are not going to be much of a wrestler.

 

The idea basically was that we have a HtH Attack power that is an equivalent cost and effect to EB as HKA is to RKA - that is essentially what I was aiming for - and that entails taking away most damage capability from 'normal strength'

 

We could do it this way:

 

STR 1 point per point.

 

This gives you the ability to exert force, that you can use for lifting, holding, throwing and crushing. You do 1d6 per 5 points with any of those sorts of attacks, and they will generally require a grab to do 'direct' damage to an opponent.

 

Striking damage has to be seperately paid for at 1d6 for 5 points.

 

If a 'strong' character wanted to go through a wall, they might not be able to exert their available force if they JUST bought strength, and striking damage would be a far more effective way of making a hole in the target.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Hugh, I'll try any break this up a bit - you make some excellent points.

 

STRENGTH

 

I was thinking that 'Damage' dice would work for strikes, throws, anything that requires the 'fast' application fo strength. I appreciate that the 'damage from throwing' thing is a problem but I figured that would probably sort itself out int hat if you had low throwing strength you probably could not throw an object with enough BODY+DEF to fulful your potential damage anyway.

 

I can grab my target and throw him to the ground. That does STR damage, whether I can lift hundreds of time his weight, or just barely get him off the ground.

 

I can think of rules (like throwing damage is based on the AVERAGE of damage+feats STR)' date=' but that seems to complicate things.[/quote']

 

I would say "complicate things more". Splitting the two facets of STR already complicates things. If I recall correctly D&D tried to split each stat into separate facets in the Players' Option series of books for 2e, allowing each substat to vary by 2 or so, so you could have gross body agility 2 points greater than your fine motor skills, or vice versa, with both being derived from DEX. It never really took (part of the problem being that many characters only benefit from one aspect), but it's certainly true that stats in both Hero and D&D subsume a lot of sub-abilities that, in real life, don't necessarily move in lockstep.

 

Mind you the problem the other way is more serious - you can lift and throw a tank but it only does a few dice of damage. Clearly that is wrong. I anticipate' date=' however, that damage dice will rarely be significantly lower that 'feats' strength.[/quote']

 

Which, as I noted previously, begs the question why their prices would be equal when the benefits of one appear to outweigh the other.

 

We could do it this way:

 

STR 1 point per point.

 

This gives you the ability to exert force, that you can use for lifting, holding, throwing and crushing. You do 1d6 per 5 points with any of those sorts of attacks, and they will generally require a grab to do 'direct' damage to an opponent.

 

Striking damage has to be seperately paid for at 1d6 for 5 points.

 

If a 'strong' character wanted to go through a wall, they might not be able to exert their available force if they JUST bought strength, and striking damage would be a far more effective way of making a hole in the target.

 

I don't see this much different than your prior proposal, except that it removes the "bought together, these are STR" aspect. Would this mean striking damage is no longer a stat, so no longer subject to the NCM rules?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

I can grab my target and throw him to the ground. That does STR damage, whether I can lift hundreds of time his weight, or just barely get him off the ground.

 

 

 

I would say "complicate things more". Splitting the two facets of STR already complicates things. If I recall correctly D&D tried to split each stat into separate facets in the Players' Option series of books for 2e, allowing each substat to vary by 2 or so, so you could have gross body agility 2 points greater than your fine motor skills, or vice versa, with both being derived from DEX. It never really took (part of the problem being that many characters only benefit from one aspect), but it's certainly true that stats in both Hero and D&D subsume a lot of sub-abilities that, in real life, don't necessarily move in lockstep.

 

 

 

Which, as I noted previously, begs the question why their prices would be equal when the benefits of one appear to outweigh the other.

 

 

 

I don't see this much different than your prior proposal, except that it removes the "bought together, these are STR" aspect. Would this mean striking damage is no longer a stat, so no longer subject to the NCM rules?

 

The reason I'm thinking of splitting the abilities up a bit is because I think that STR, even without figured characteristics, is probably worth more than 1 point per point. The next whole number up is 2 points per point. If STR cost that you could never have a STR inside campaign AP limits that was effectvie as an attack. Simple as that.

 

I do appreciate this approach is not straightforward in a game that has sdone it one way for 25 years (or however old THS is), but it isn't complicated. Moreover it is much more 'toolkit' than the current system where the only way of breaking the 'lockstep' abilities you mention is with limited characteristics which are awkward from an AP POV and just plain messy on the character sheet. At least with an approach like this, once you have your head round the new approach the actual application would be simple enough.

 

So, point of debate #1: should we ditch figured characteristics? Well, not ditch them, obviously, but ditch the figuring?

 

IF SO, point of debate #2: is STR worth more than 1 point per point?

 

Frankly I'm not to bothered that an approach like this can be abused - that is up to individual users, but what I'd like to shoot for is a system that is a genuine tolkit, that enables you to think of a concept and realise it, and that means stripping out a lot of the meta-mechanics, and figured characteristics is a biggie on that score, as is the idea of one characteristic doing so much.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Why should it be markedly cheaper to buy DEX as a package? 15 DEX for 45 points vs +5 OCV for 25, +5 DCV for 25, +3 to DEX rolls for 15 and +15 to combat order for 15 totals 80 points, almost a 50% discount. This effectively returns the "figured characteristic" debate.

 

I realize part of the goal is to avoid making skill levels inordinately expensive compared to DEX and its components, but maybe that goal needs to be accomplished by repricing skill levels. Or maybe it must be done by acknowledging that, in the absence of Normal Characteristics Maxima, skill levels ARE a lousy deal.

 

Also, the elimination of figured characteristics here grosses up the cost of DEX from 2 points to 3 points, since no one ever fails to build up SPD, so you are effectively enhancing the cost of DEX.

 

I was not thinking - I forgot that we use DEX/3

 

You are absolutely right about this, but I do think we need to bring DEX more in line with skill level costs. At present we pay 3/point and we get a lot for that, even ignoring the figured characteristic bonus. the calculation you show is what it would cost to buy the equivalent abilities with skill levels.

 

By your calculations (which I agree with) we should be paying 5 points per point for DEX, or thereabouts. there are some advantages skill levels have over 'straight' DEX, so maybe we should figure a slightly lower cost, but even so we should be looking at at least 4 points per point of DEX.

 

The other approach is to make DEX cheaper and ditch the connection between DEX and combat ability. I can see that being unpopular.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

CONSTITUTION

 

What is the value of not being stunned? Quite a lot, IMO. I think 1/2 a point is too low: it would encourage 40+ STUN (I know I argue elsewhere about toolkitting but we have to be sensible). I'd cough up 10-20 points for a 20-30 CON, and feel the bite a bit if it went much higher. Paying 5-10 points for the same is just not enough.

 

If necessary to balance the cost we could always work up a new mechanic or two, and some skills, perhaps, that are CON based. For instance you might not let anyone push a power, or burn STUN for END unless they can make a CON roll.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

INTELLIGENCE

 

You say you like having a stat that shows how smart you are, but it does not do that. It can denote any number of different things and you can be smart without having a high INT. Moreover the linked intelligence/perception thing has always bugged me. Hero just does not do animal senses justice. Frankly the smartest and the dumbest will perceive equally well unless they have a physical defect. There is no good reason to link PER to INT.

 

YES, having a 'full spectrum' high INT would be more expensive under my proposals, but again +1 INT and +1 PER (all senses) under the CURRENT system costs 8 points - I'm just proposing we fall in line with that. It is time the tyranny of characteristics was ended, and skills got a fair shake.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

EGO

 

Yes it is 'worse' than the DEX calculation, but then having the ability to take advantage of a high EGO fully is elatively rare, whereas having the ability to take full advantage of a high DEX is ubiquitous.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

IF SO' date=' point of debate #2: is STR worth more than 1 point per point?[/quote']

 

As an add-on, if it is worth more than 1 point per point, what should the updated price of Telekinesis be?

 

Ditching figured characteristics, +5 STR adds +1d6 damage with no range, the ability to Grab, Hold, Throw and Lift.

 

5 points spent on Energy Blast gets the same damage, at range, and the ability to Spread for enhanced OCV or for small non-selective areas of effect.

 

Sounds pretty close to "different but equal" to me, which would lead me away from bumping the cost of STR up.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

CONSTITUTION

 

What is the value of not being stunned? Quite a lot, IMO. I think 1/2 a point is too low: it would encourage 40+ STUN (I know I argue elsewhere about toolkitting but we have to be sensible). I'd cough up 10-20 points for a 20-30 CON, and feel the bite a bit if it went much higher. Paying 5-10 points for the same is just not enough.

 

How much CON would you buy without figured characteristics if the limitation were -1 instead of -1/2? The principal purpose of CON is to enhance figured characteristics. That's subject to playtesting, of course - I suspect we'd be debating the cost revisions a year after implementing your approach, whatever costs were assigned to each stat.

 

If necessary to balance the cost we could always work up a new mechanic or two' date=' and some skills, perhaps, that are CON based. For instance you might not let anyone push a power, or burn STUN for END unless they can make a CON roll.[/quote']

 

Now we're increasing the value of CON by taking away things characters could previously do for free, although the examples are good.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

As an add-on, if it is worth more than 1 point per point, what should the updated price of Telekinesis be?

 

Ditching figured characteristics, +5 STR adds +1d6 damage with no range, the ability to Grab, Hold, Throw and Lift.

 

5 points spent on Energy Blast gets the same damage, at range, and the ability to Spread for enhanced OCV or for small non-selective areas of effect.

 

Sounds pretty close to "different but equal" to me, which would lead me away from bumping the cost of STR up.

 

 

Strength still sounds more useful to me, given that you can pick up a telephone pole and spread your attack that way, or create areas of effect. We can debate that one though

 

Moreover, strength (through 'objects of opportunity') gives you damage at range already, and most ranges in Hero combats are within most throwing distances.

 

I'm philosophically opposed to thinking of strength as 'melee damage plus a few small sfx based advantages'.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

How much CON would you buy without figured characteristics if the limitation were -1 instead of -1/2? The principal purpose of CON is to enhance figured characteristics. That's subject to playtesting, of course - I suspect we'd be debating the cost revisions a year after implementing your approach, whatever costs were assigned to each stat.

 

 

 

Now we're increasing the value of CON by taking away things characters could previously do for free, although the examples are good.

 

 

To a large extent I suppose it does not matter - strength and dexterity and constitution are seriously underpriced as it is and they don't get (too badly) abused, but if I had to go for a figure I'd still plump for 1/1. It HAS to be more useful than COM, even though there is only one letter difference

 

I don't feel too bad about moving the goalposts on CON given the enormous changes the rest of the proposal would make

[schir1964]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Sean, you always seem to be a step ahead of me.

 

I've been formulating an idea that touches directly on what you are doing in this thread.

 

When I get some solid time to get it typed out, I'll run it by you first to see if it's worth posting here.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Gadodel]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

 

 

 

INT: This is gone, to be replaced with a new set of general everyman PER skills (see below) and a series of talents (see below).

 

 

 

Replacing INT:

 

NEW SKILL: General intelligence: This is the ability to apply information from memory or your environment to solve problems or draw conclusions. It has a starting value of 11-. You can sell that back to 8- and gain2 points or not have the skill and gain 3 points. It can be used in place of any other intelligence based skill at a –3 non-proficiency penalty, with GM permission.

 

All INT skills are considered to have a base of 11-.

 

The following Talents can be purchased:

 

Smart: +1 with all intelligence based skills 5 points. You can buy more than one level of Smart, and re-label it if you like: 5 levels might be called Genius.

 

Well educated: +1 with all intelligence based skills, memory based (-1/2) 3 points

 

Sharp: + 1 with all intelligence based skills, reasoning based (-1/2) 3 points.

 

In addition you can buy these talents with additional limitations:

 

Only for a related group of intelligence based skills: -1/2 (so Smart would then cost 3 points, and Well educated or Sharp would cost 2)

 

Only for a single skill: -2 (so Smart would then cost 2 points and Well educated or Sharp would cost 1 point)

.

Would you eliminate Analyze and/or Deduction in this approach?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Sean, you always seem to be a step ahead of me.

 

I've been formulating an idea that touches directly on what you are doing in this thread.

 

When I get some solid time to get it typed out, I'll run it by you first to see if it's worth posting here.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

No, mate, it is just that, like Duke Bushido, I've been channelling you

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Would you eliminate Analyze and/or Deduction in this approach?

 

Well, deduction is a skill I don't usually allow anyway - deducing things is what players are for. I don't write scenarios to have to explain them on a dice roll So that one I have not even thought about, but yes I could see this making that skill pretty pointless.

 

Analyse, however, is much more specific, and I would still think there is a place for it in the brave new world:cool:

[psm]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Moreover the linked intelligence/perception thing has always bugged me. Hero just does not do animal senses justice. Frankly the smartest and the dumbest will perceive equally well unless they have a physical defect. There is no good reason to link PER to INT.

 

Wholeheartedly, agree. I've been tinkering with an idea lately to add a new primary characteristic called "Senses" or "Awareness". I'm still trying to figure out if I want to make a figured characteristic also but I really haven't come up with a good reason for it. Basically, I want characters to roll once and first compare the roll against their "Sense" check. If they succeed they are aware of something. Then I use the same roll and compare it with their perception. If they succeed then they know what it is. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to test it out so I have no idea if it would work.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

I haven't had time to really analyze this the way I'd like,

 

but I did see a couple of things I'd like to ponder right away:

 

Your split Str thing. I'm not opposed to the concept, but it seems like you can simplify what you've done here by simply removing the damage component from STR completely. You're granting all STR relevant features _save damage_ for the current price of 1/1.

 

You're granting "STR-based damage" at the current rate of Ranged A-- sorry; Energy Blast. That is, 5pt /1d6.

 

Given that concept, simply remove the damage element all together and leave pricing as is. Players would thus be required to by HTHA (Energy Blast, no Range) to simulate the destruction their staggering brawn can wreak.

 

Though getting back to your idea of making a 'separate' part of STR:

 

how would this apply STR to such things as STR bonuses to weapons as qualified attacks? Would a person be required to (as I assumed) have bought actual damage dice of STR or would his raw STR score still be used?

 

I am interested in re-reading your ideas for INT when I get a minute-- it was interesting on the skim-through.

 

And I really liked your take on COM.

 

And a couple of other points:

 

I've always been up-front that most of what my group does is of no use to anyone else, as we use a hybridized 2e, borrowing here and there from later editions. But we've played PRE as being 1pt per for about twenty years, simply because, what with a Presence Attack being a 'free' short-term mind control, yes-- it was grossly underpriced. Costing it at 1/1 stopped the abuse, simply because the temptation was removed: for not much more, you can get _actual_ mind control, and do more with it

 

I am very intrigued by your COM suggestions. Of all the stats, COM has been the redheaded stepchild, seeing action as little more than an perk (dazzlingly gorgeous) or a Character Limitation (horrifically disfigured).

 

Keep it coming, and I"ll try to get through it again and pay a bit more atteniton.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Strength is difficult - I'd like to hive off damage entirely and have it seperately paid for - basically, as you say, HtH Attack but without the limitation, so EB = 1d6 damage ranged, HA = 1d6 damage (can add to other hand attacks, MA, etc.)

 

The problem is, if you can LIFT 25 tons and then you drop it on someone, you are going to do some damage, probably 10d6 worth, so even 'damageless strength' can be used to damage.

 

My current thinking is 2 points per point, no figured, allows damage AND manipulation, you can buy extra damage at 5 points per 1d6 and if you want stregth that cannot be used effectively for direct damage, buy STR with a limitation (say -1/2 or even -1).

 

Now one problem already alluded to by (I think) Hugh is that incresing STR cost will also increase TK cost. Well, yes, but you could now buy it as STRwith the 'ranged 'advantage, and you could still buy ip the damage you can do with it, again with the 'ranged' advantage ont hat too, so for 30 points you get 10 STR TK and it does 2d6 damage, and you can buy up the damage if you like (although it is probably cheaper to simply do it with a seperate EB). Also TK would not be inherently indirect unless you bought it with the advantage.

 

In fact it would probably be easiest in many cases to buy up your strength and then add 'stretching' with sfx 'TK energy arms' for short range TK

 

This will have pretty profound effects given the exponential basis of strength - instead of a character with 50 points spent on strength being able to lift 100 tons, they can now only manage 3.2 tons!

 

Personally that would not bother me - it seems more realistic - and you can still build Superman if you have the appropriate number of character points - your bricks will still be as dangerous as before, they just won't be hurling trucks about - they will only just be able to lift them! To be comptetive, Bricks are going to have to up their damage with a seperate purchase, but that can go into an EC or other framework if they like.

 

I anticipate this sort of thing:

 

STR 30 (40 character points, 6d6 damage)

 

30 points STR MP

6 SLOT 1 m +6d6 melee damage

6 SLOT 2 m +15 STR

 

You then have a character who can lift at 45 str or punch for 12d6, effectively redefining the lift/damage ratio, which is not a bad thing.

 

Other powers will be affected too though - notably growth and density increase. both of which will have to scale differently to prevent characters collapsing under their own weight

 

Again, I don't see that as a bad thing. there are very few terrestrial materials that could effectively create the mass increases that 50 points of DI can - even turning into solid gold will only up your mass less than 20 times - the equivalent of about 23 points in DI - under teh new schema, you'd need to spend nearly 50 points to achaicve the same mass increase - far more appropriately scaled IMO. Similarly 60 points of growth would only get you to 8m tall. That is still a lot!

 

Bear in mind that high strength allows, in effect, AoE attacks (large objects) and ranged attacks (thrown objects) anyway, and the cost does not seem so unreasonable. If you had 30 STR and +6d6 hand Damage, you could only do 6d6 damage with a thrown object unless you bought the additional damage with the 'ranged' advantage - so you'd pay 40 points for the 30 STr plus 30 x 1 1/3 (34 points) for the ability to throw objects for 12d6 damage.

[schir1964]

Re: Overhauling characteristics

 

Clipped

Your number crunching humbles me, oh great one!

 

- Christopher Mulllins