Hero threads on rpg.net

[Alibear]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

Even rpg.net has a rule about making remarks about an author. Talk about their work' date=' not the person sort of vibe.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here.

 

Are you saying that Mr. Long is not to be questioned on his work? I sure don't think I said anything about him personally.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

No one ever said Hero was. Hero is cinematic.

 

This is the whole point. If you understand Hero mechanically and limit it it can do a good job of recreating, abstractly, how things work in the real world. Kinda.

 

If people are given a nudge, and if the author took the lead here, it becomes clear what certain numbers represent within the rules.

 

If you have 8 pd you are not a real person anymore. An Elephant can stomp you into the dust and you'll get back up without even a broken bone. Tarzan territory.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

It says all over the book that Hero is Cinematic.

 

And Steve isn't the first writer, just the latest. He's working on what came before him.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

If Steve wanted to set aside a chapter to talk about how to use Hero as realistally as possible he would.

[Susano]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

If Steve wanted to set aside a chapter to talk about how to use Hero as realistally as possible he would.

 

Well, he hasn't. He's stated that Hero is meant for cinematic roleplaying. If you want the level of realism you're speaking of, you want GURPS.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

That's a shame, as I think Steve is mising an opportunity here.

 

If you want the level of realism you're speaking of' date=' you want GURPS.[/quote']

 

No, no I don't. Hero works just fine if you ask it to do what you want it to do.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

If I had 8 pd I could leap off the roof of a 5 story building and not suffer any broken bones. That is not normal and I think NCM for PD and ED should be 4' date=' or maybe 5. [/quote']

 

As others have noted, Hero is about cinematic reality. What kind of games do you play that adhere strictly to realism? Pretty much all games I've seen are more cinematic than realistic.

 

p.s. You think Indiana Jones should be immune to be beaten up by burly blokes with baseball bats? You think he can be run over by cars doing 40 or drop 50 feet and just get up? I never seen anything in the movies to suggest he had more than 3 or 4 PD. I'd give him a pretty high breakfall roll but not a massive PD.

 

In Raiders of the Lost Ark, on board the ship, Indy complains that every part of his body hurts. He's bruised, battered and beaten. Yet, a scene later, he's hale and hearty, operating at full capacity. That doesn't sound like someone down a dozen BOD and will take months to recover, it sounds like someone who got beaten up for a lot of STUN and recovered it by the next scene.

 

Now, it's a hard one to simulate in the Hero system - he's impeded too long for normal STUN recoveries but nowhere near long enough for BOD to recover. Perhaps a long term STUN provision (for every X stun you take in a given time period, one is long term and recovers only once every 8 hours of rest) might be a reasonable addition, paralleling long-term END. But most movie heroes take BOD only rarely - they recover much too fast to be down significant BOD. Thus, a PD of 8, which prevents BOD damage from most brawl-type attacks, seems well within the realm of possibility for an action movie hero, at least to me.

 

As you allude to above, Hero can be made to be more "realistic" (by your definition) by limiting the purchases of defenses accordingly. Of course, if PD caps out at 5, then a barroom brawl is likely to leave injuries requiring extended periods to recover from. If that's the game the group wants, great. Some groups want the characters to keep going, action-movie style, and not require weeks or months of bed rest between relatively routine/minor encounters.

[Susano]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

There is that nice house rule about taking 1 BODY for every 20 STUN that gets past defenses (usually in some lump sum).

[Alibear]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

As others have noted, Hero is about cinematic reality. What kind of games do you play that adhere strictly to realism? Pretty much all games I've seen are more cinematic than realistic.

 

Cinematic/Realistic. It depends on what we are playing, of course. Fantays is much more gritty than the Mega City One campaign we're trying out which is itself more Gritty than our Supers game.

 

In Raiders of the Lost Ark, on board the ship, Indy complains that every part of his body hurts. He's bruised, battered and beaten. Yet, a scene later, he's hale and hearty, operating at full capacity. That doesn't sound like someone down a dozen BOD and will take months to recover, it sounds like someone who got beaten up for a lot of STUN and recovered it by the next scene.

 

Now, it's a hard one to simulate in the Hero system - he's impeded too long for normal STUN recoveries but nowhere near long enough for BOD to recover. Perhaps a long term STUN provision (for every X stun you take in a given time period, one is long term and recovers only once every 8 hours of rest) might be a reasonable addition, paralleling long-term END. But most movie heroes take BOD only rarely - they recover much too fast to be down significant BOD. Thus, a PD of 8, which prevents BOD damage from most brawl-type attacks, seems well within the realm of possibility for an action movie hero, at least to me.

 

So he get's beaten up and in lots of pain and in the next scene he is fine?

Sounds more like a lot of Recovery rather than a lot of PD to me.

 

Point taken that it isn't realistic, I've had the beejesus kicked out of me in Karate and taken several days, not minutes, to fully recover.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

There is that nice house rule about taking 1 BODY for every 20 STUN that gets past defenses (usually in some lump sum).

 

House rules to cope with PD too high to let any body through? Would it not make more sense to just lower pd?

 

This is exactly what I'm trying to get at, people implement the rules badly and need to patch together a fix when it doesn't make any sense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

Cinematic/Realistic. It depends on what we are playing' date=' of course. Fantasy is much more gritty than the Mega City One campaign we're trying out which is itself more Gritty than our Supers game. [/quote']

 

So your Fantasy game is realistic? How's the magic system work in that? "I'll save us - the monster would much rather eat the rabbit I pulled out of my hat than chase us!"

 

Clearly not, but the term "realistic fantasy" (and yes, I note your use of "gritty" instead) seems off to me. But, again, all it takes to move the benchmarks is group consensus. I don't think most source material has heroes bleeding, battered and in need of bed rest after a bar room brawl. Far more common is the character who leaps from the roof of the building, tucks, rolls and is hale and hearty (or lands on his moving horse, injuring neither).

 

So he get's beaten up and in lots of pain and in the next scene he is fine? Sounds more like a lot of Recovery rather than a lot of PD to me.

 

Point taken that it isn't realistic, I've had the beejesus kicked out of me in Karate and taken several days, not minutes, to fully recover.

 

Actually, he's been through the "getting beaten up" scenes. He's then on the ship, in a scene with the female lead, and every part of his body hurts (which ultimately doesn't prevent him from engaging in a love scene), after which we never hear about his bumps and bruises again. Which is par for the course in action movies, and indicates, to me, that these characters either don't take BOD damage or they recover it hourly, not monthly. But if they break a limb, or otherwise take a serious injury (rare, but it happens) those wounds heal at more realistic rates. IOW, the source material tends towards characters whose PD is high enough that they rarely take BOD, especially from non-killing attacks, but often take (and rapidly recover) STUN. Which the suggested PD ranges emulate very well.

 

I suppose one could have a third level of injury that heals slower than STUN but faster than BOD, but I don't see that added realism contributing to gameplay more than the added bookkeeping detracts from it.

[Susano]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

House rules to cope with PD too high to let any body through? Would it not make more sense to just lower pd?

 

This is exactly what I'm trying to get at, people implement the rules badly and need to patch together a fix when it doesn't make any sense.

 

Then lower the PD in your game. 8 PD as "NCM" has been around since... Justice Inc. and Danger International, which would date it to... 1985? And I fail to see how following the benchmarks is " implement[ing] the rules badly." I'll also point out that the 8 PD guys are usually the heroes, not joe normals, who usually have 3-5 PD if they are supposed to be "tougher" than normal.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

So your Fantasy game is realistic? How's the magic system work in that? "I'll save us - the monster would much rather eat the rabbit I pulled out of my hat than chase us!"

 

Clearly not, but the term "realistic fantasy" (and yes, I note your use of "gritty" instead) seems off to me. But, again, all it takes to move the benchmarks is group consensus. I don't think most source material has heroes bleeding, battered and in need of bed rest after a bar room brawl. Far more common is the character who leaps from the roof of the building, tucks, rolls and is hale and hearty (or lands on his moving horse, injuring neither)..

 

Fantasy literature is more likely to have people injured and in need of medical aid than movies, I find. Or, maybe I just read low fantasy campaigns?

 

Yes, I said gritty not realistic. (It might look funny as all characters are magicians of some sort in the campaign) We try to game in a pseudo realistic world with some magic. We try to have realistic effects and have reasonable stories. Dragons can only fly because they are inherently magical as one example. We don't really use much healing magic. All magical items have backstories including who made them and why. Most magical items have a history and are unique. After all someone had to invest his xps to make them. No generic swords +1 lying around. No rust monsters or grey ooze.

 

In one scenario a magician was beaten up, kidnapped and locked in a room for several days until he was rescued. (player couldnae turn up) The magician was kept from accessing magic by the simple expedient of going into his room and beating him senseless several times a day.

 

 

Actually, he's been through the "getting beaten up" scenes. He's then on the ship, in a scene with the female lead, and every part of his body hurts (which ultimately doesn't prevent him from engaging in a love scene), after which we never hear about his bumps and bruises again. Which is par for the course in action movies, and indicates, to me, that these characters either don't take BOD damage or they recover it hourly, not monthly. But if they break a limb, or otherwise take a serious injury (rare, but it happens) those wounds heal at more realistic rates. IOW, the source material tends towards characters whose PD is high enough that they rarely take BOD, especially from non-killing attacks, but often take (and rapidly recover) STUN. Which the suggested PD ranges emulate very well.

 

No, I don't run or play in that sort of game. Maybe he has regeneration with a tantric Sex limitation?

 

 

I suppose one could have a third level of injury that heals slower than STUN but faster than BOD, but I don't see that added realism contributing to gameplay more than the added bookkeeping detracts from it.

 

 

That is a good point, and worth considering, but probably not worth the extra effort as you said.

[Alibear]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

Then lower the PD in your game.

 

Already done for people who are meant to be normal. I don't disallow high PD, far from it, I just make sure everyone knows what it represents.

[proditor]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

Why do people always want to bring this up as if it's a question of intellect or education? It's not a question of being unable to do the math. It's a question of not wanting to do that much math. Some people don't want to add, subtract, multiply, divide, and multiply & divide fractions to make a character. Not wanting to do it doesn't make people stupid or uneducated. It just means they're rather prioritize their time with some other aspect of character creation.

 

I'd also point out that on this very forum there's a thread about Hero's best product and the thing that seemed to get a lot of votes was Hero Designer: the little tool that keeps you from having to do all that math. So even some of the Hero System's strongest proponents don't really want to do the math if they don't have to.

I had a much snarkier intro, but I'll try again. I think you're missing the point.

 

It has nothing to do with whether or not people want to do the math.

 

If they say "HERO requires a degree in calculus" then they are either:

1) Lying

2) Ignorant

3) Exaggerrating well beyond the scope of believeability.

 

I've seen the above on RPG.net any number of times a HERO thread is brought up. Never; "I don't want to do the math" but "The math is too hard and of a higher education level than should be required".

 

The first statement is completely acceptable and falls into the "To each his own" category. The second statement is an open invitation to ridicule when it is clearly and demonstrably based on something other than reality.

[Susano]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

I had a much snarkier intro, but I'll try again. I think you're missing the point.

 

It has nothing to do with whether or not people want to do the math.

 

If they say "HERO requires a degree in calculus" then they are either 1) Lying 2) Ignorant 3) Exaggerrating well beyond the scope of believeability. I've seen the above on RPG.net any number of times a HERO thread is brought up. Never; "I don't want to do the math" but "The math is too hard and of a higher education level than should be required".

 

The first statement is completely acceptable and falls into the "To each his own" category. The second statement is an open invitation to ridicule when it is clearly and demonstrably based on something other than reality.

 

The math is no issue for anyone with a basic calculator. The reason I like HD is I don't have to do any math -- I just plug in values and go. I spend less time checking and rechecking my numbers to make sure I didn't miss anything. HD isn't perfect, but it sure makes life easier.

 

I'll also point out that Hero math has nothing on GURPS math, which uses all sorts of odd percentages (as far as I can tell).

[proditor]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

The math is no issue for anyone with a basic calculator. The reason I like HD is I don't have to do any math -- I just plug in values and go. I spend less time checking and rechecking my numbers to make sure I didn't miss anything. HD isn't perfect, but it sure makes life easier.

 

I'll also point out that Hero math has nothing on GURPS math, which uses all sorts of odd percentages (as far as I can tell).

 

Agreed on all counts hoss.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

I had a much snarkier intro, but I'll try again. I think you're missing the point.

 

It has nothing to do with whether or not people want to do the math.

 

If they say "HERO requires a degree in calculus" then they are either:

1) Lying

2) Ignorant

3) Exaggerrating well beyond the scope of believeability.

 

I've seen the above on RPG.net any number of times a HERO thread is brought up. Never; "I don't want to do the math" but "The math is too hard and of a higher education level than should be required".

 

The first statement is completely acceptable and falls into the "To each his own" category. The second statement is an open invitation to ridicule when it is clearly and demonstrably based on something other than reality.

I didn't miss the point at all. I just get as tired of seeing Hero players tell everyone the math is not an issue if you have an xth grade education as I do seeing people say you require calculus to do it [both statements are insults]. The fact that someone doesn't like math doesn't mean their intellect should be questioned.

[proditor]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

I didn't miss the point at all. I just get as tired of seeing Hero players tell everyone the math is not an issue if you have an xth grade education as I do seeing people say you require calculus to do it [both statements are insults]. The fact that someone doesn't like math doesn't mean their intellect should be questioned.

 

No, you did miss the point if you see both as insults.

 

If someone says "HERO requires a degree in mathematics"

 

They are lying. Knowingly or unknowingly.

 

The response "No, it requires math that is taught in 5th grade" is correcting an improper perception. Is it a snarky correction? It could be, though tone would mean a lot. But in the immortal words of first graders everywhere, "They started it". And moreover, they're lying. Allow me to say that again so we're perfectly clear: One side is either willfully or ignorantly misrepresenting the truth. But sure, let's hog tie those trying to respond with the actual facts...

 

Because obviously it is still out there, and still being pushed. And it's still flat out wrong.

 

And no one here is questioning people who don't like math, so feel free to jump off that straw man whenever you like.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

No, you did miss the point if you see both as insults.

 

If someone says "HERO requires a degree in mathematics"

 

They are lying. Knowingly or unknowingly.

 

The response "No, it requires math that is taught in 5th grade" is correcting an improper perception. Is it a snarky correction? It could be, though tone would mean a lot. But in the immortal words of first graders everywhere, "They started it". And moreover, they're lying. Allow me to say that again so we're perfectly clear: One side is either willfully or ignorantly misrepresenting the truth. But sure, let's hog tie those trying to respond with the actual facts...

 

Because obviously it is still out there, and still being pushed. And it's still flat out wrong.

 

And no one here is questioning people who don't like math, so feel free to jump off that straw man whenever you like.

Well Goradin stated that it only requires an 8th grade education, and then Phil came back with 5th grade and not paying attention in math class. What they're really implying is that if people don't want to do 8th or 5th grade math they're either lazy or uneducated. An insult's still an insult even when it's not directly stated.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

Fantasy literature is more likely to have people injured and in need of medical aid than movies' date=' I find. Or, maybe I just read low fantasy campaigns?[/quote']

 

What I tend to see in fantasy literature is a character who is badly injured after a crucial encounter, not an entire group laid up for bed rest after a bar room brawl. That is, characters who take significant BOD do so only at critical story junctures.

 

I would also suggest most fantasy literature and movies have a much lower "encounter density" than the typical game. That is, the typical game has vastly more incidents of combat than the typical fantasy book/movie.

 

In one scenario a magician was beaten up' date=' kidnapped and locked in a room for several days until he was rescued. (player couldnae turn up) The magician was kept from accessing magic by the simple expedient of going into his room and beating him senseless several times a day.[/quote']

 

So, to the realism of damage from a beating, how badly injured was this magician at the end of the scenario? Realistically, he should have taken 1 or 2 BOD, at least, from each severe beating, right?

[proditor]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

Well Goradin stated that it only requires an 8th grade education' date=' and then Phil came back with 5th grade and not paying attention in math class. What they're really implying is that if people don't want to do 8th or 5th grade math they're either lazy or uneducated. An insult's still an insult even when it's not directly stated.[/quote']

 

So your solution is let the initial insult/lie stand? Because again, "they started it". It may seem like a childish response, but one side of this equation is actively lying about the requirements. And your response has been that stating the actual required math is insulting, implied or otherwise. So a lie is just fine then?

[MitchellS]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

So your solution is let the initial insult/lie stand? Because again' date=' "they started it". It may seem like a childish response, but one side of this equation is actively lying about the requirements. And your response has been that stating the actual required math is insulting, implied or otherwise. So a lie is just fine then?[/quote']

I don't want to burst your bubble but there wasn't any comments made here about the difficulty of Hero's math by any Hero haters: there was no insult. In this case the Hero folks "started it." I'm basically just saying why fling the mud at all? There is that whole "turn the other cheek" concept that seems to be really popular with some religious groups. It wouldn't hurt to try it a little more often.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

To the math issue, I would suggest that the detractors start it by saying "you need a degree in higher math", the supporters continue it by saying "did you drop out of elementary school? this is no tougher than 5th grade math" and so on.

 

The real answer from either side likely should be "The hero character creation process requires a significant degree of elementary math. Some players don't want to spend the time to do the math, or invest in available software to do it for them."

 

To me, however, the work required to do the math isn't greater than the work required to map out a D&D character's progress from 1st to 12th level through feat chains, skill requirements, classes, multiclasses and prestige classes, stat bonuses, etc. covering a dozen or so different books to min/max the character. And a lot of the "hero math is excessive" detractors have no problem with the time they spend doing exactly that.

[proditor]

Re: Hero threads on rpg.net

 

I don't want to burst your bubble but there wasn't any comments made here about the difficulty of Hero's math by any Hero haters: there was no insult. In this case the Hero folks "started it." I'm basically just saying why fling the mud at all? There is that whole "turn the other cheek" concept that seems to be really popular with some religious groups. It wouldn't hurt to try it a little more often.

 

You are splitting hairs. The response about the math was specifically in reference to the posts on RPG.net. It was clearly stated as such. It was not pre-emptive.

 

And "turn the other cheek" in this instance, by what you have stated in this thread so far, means not correcting a lie.

 

Is this what you're advocating?