nexus Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 I'm participating in a "Sell me on Hero" thread on Rpg.net. Its the first Hero system thread I've become involved in on there for quite a while. I avoid them because of the intense hostility they used to generate but over time that seems to have gotten better. But I have to wonder, do all the Sell me" threads there turn some quickly into "Here's how the game sucks/let me sell you on something better!" threads? The thread barely got 2 pages in before it seemed more like an "unsell me" thread than anything else. Is that just the nature of the beast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net I'd have to say it depends on the posters - especially the OP. There's no shortage of threads here where a poster says "I have this idea - do you think it's a good one? What do you suggest?" Some clearly show the OP is looking for better ideas. Others show he's looking for a pat on the back for his brilliance, and any suggestions that his system might be less than perfect (or, heaven help us, that the effect he's looking for can be easier accomplished using some existing rule) is met with considerable defensiveness. Does the OP in your example seem like he's looking for opinions to help him make a decision, or looking for support for the decision he's already made (and maybe the thread should be titled "you could never sell me on Hero"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted October 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net I'd have to say it depends on the posters - especially the OP. There's no shortage of threads here where a poster says "I have this idea - do you think it's a good one? What do you suggest?" Some clearly show the OP is looking for better ideas. Others show he's looking for a pat on the back for his brilliance, and any suggestions that his system might be less than perfect (or, heaven help us, that the effect he's looking for can be easier accomplished using some existing rule) is met with considerable defensiveness. Does the OP in your example seem like he's looking for opinions to help him make a decision, or looking for support for the decision he's already made (and maybe the thread should be titled "you could never sell me on Hero"). He/She seemed to be looking for advice on Hero. I included the link if you'd like to see for yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted October 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net I've said it before and now I'll it again. Hero seems to create a lot of bitterness in people that decide its not for them or find another system that works better for them But I guess that's probably just the vocal minority of former Hero players. The pissed off ones are the most vocal and the ones that just moved on don't go on about it publically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net It was an interesting thread, and FAR less hostile to Hero than previous threads I've read on rpg.net. Of course, that may be because 2/3 of the posters in it were also Hero board members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net I stopped posting our the Review Forums on RPG.Net because of the inherent hostility on that entire board. As far as I've seen every single "Sell me on" or "Tell me about" thread turns into a thread where people attempt to provide information on any other system other than the one asked about. I've even seen the "beloved" Exalted threads turn into anti-exalted threads when someone asks if the game is any good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted October 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net It was an interesting thread' date=' and FAR less hostile to Hero than previous threads I've read on rpg.net. Of course, that may be because 2/3 of the posters in it were also Hero board members. [/quote'] I have to agree with you. Few years ago there would have been death threats by this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted October 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net I stopped posting our the Review Forums on RPG.Net because of the inherent hostility on that entire board. As far as I've seen every single "Sell me on" or "Tell me about" thread turns into a thread where people attempt to provide information on any other system other than the one asked about. I've even seen the "beloved" Exalted threads turn into anti-exalted threads when someone asks if the game is any good. Thanks, Ghost Angel. I don't look at many "Sell me" threads because they're ususally about system I don't care about or haven't heard of. So this is just SOP. Good to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net What annoys me most at rpg.net is the complaints when the person complaining only has a very basic grasp of the rules and what they represent. I think Steven Long is at least partially to blame as it isn't made clear that someone with 8 pd is akin to a hard man from fiction, Tarzan, John J. Rambo, Conan, John MacLean. Someone who can be beat up, chewed up, shot up and blown up and still soldiers on. He can fall from a tall building or be hit by a speeding car and he just gets on with it. If they want someone to be real and incurr a broken skull after being hit by a baseball bat then build them with 2 pd ffs! Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net What we need is a book with stats for real people from history a´nd fictional characters that we all know. Then we would have a refernce point for us to base character design on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net What annoys me most at rpg.net is the complaints when the person complaining only has a very basic grasp of the rules and what they represent. I think Steven Long is at least partially to blame as it isn't made clear that someone with 8 pd is akin to a hard man from fiction, Tarzan, John J. Rambo, Conan, John MacLean. Someone who can be beat up, chewed up, shot up and blown up and still soldiers on. He can fall from a tall building or be hit by a speeding car and he just gets on with it. If they want someone to be real and incurr a broken skull after being hit by a baseball bat then build them with 2 pd ffs! Carry on. What we need is a book with stats for real people from history a´nd fictional characters that we all know. Then we would have a refernce point for us to base character design on. 1) Every game is different, it'd be impossible for Steve to do that. 2) the back of 5ER has a bunch of sample characters of low pointage. 3) You Gotta Have Character is a book of a bunch of real world people in Hero Stats. Everyman is all normals (Defenses range from 2-6). Dark Champions has whole bunches of Hero Types as examples. 4) Fictional characters requires licensing, pony up the cash and I'm sure Hero will listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goradin Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net Some with the equivalent of an 8th grade education might find HERO too hard. The math always intimidated my players. Particularly the limitations and advantages and figuring out the cost always made people think you need a PhD in math but as we know its not that bad. So much for gamers being inherently more intelligent or the hobby of the intellectual, eh? Bottom line you can do more with HERO and your imagination than any other game if you take time to read the book which is not something people are apt to do so, other than the combat sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net What we need is a book with stats for real people from history a´nd fictional characters that we all know. Then we would have a refernce point for us to base character design on. Here you go: http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/archive.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net Some with the equivalent of an 8th grade education might find HERO too hard. The math always intimidated my players. Particularly the limitations and advantages and figuring out the cost always made people think you need a PhD in math but as we know its not that bad. Hero Designer to the rescue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net 3) You Gotta Have Character is a book of a bunch of real world people in Hero Stats. Everyman is all normals (Defenses range from 2-6). Dark Champions has whole bunches of Hero Types as examples. Normal people are by definition 0 point characters. Normal people have 2 or 3 PD not 2-6 but I do understand the rest of the sentiments. Here you go: http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/archive.html Access denied, I'll look later, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net Normal people are by definition 0 point characters. Normal people have 2 or 3 PD not 2-6 but I do understand the rest of the sentiments. I disagree. Normals are people built on a 0-point base, but shouldn't total out to be 0 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net I never made myself clear, 0+ up to 25 disads. edit: and 8 across the board for stats not 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net Some with the equivalent of an 8th grade education might find HERO too hard. If that's the case, then they weren't paying attention in math class. The math never gets any harder than multiplying and dividing fractions - which I was taught in 5th grade. It's all arithmetic - there's no calculus, trigonometry, geometry, or even algebra. If you want to *analyze* or *modify* the game, some basic knowledge of probability and statistics might come in handy, but that isn't needed to *play* or even *GM* the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net Normal people are by definition 0 point characters. Normal people have 2 or 3 PD not 2-6 but I do understand the rest of the sentiments. NCM for PD/ED is 8. They are in the range of Normal People at 2-6. I'd put a fit adult at 3-4. A toughened soldier at 4-6. A hard case at 5-8. I would put tough heroes like Indiana Jones at 6-12 range. John MacLane probably ranks around 8 or 10 IMO. You believe a hard man is at 8. Normals only 2-3. See what I mean about varies from Game To Game? and yet you blamed Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net Because blaming the writer for bad gamers bugs me... 5ER p345: Average Person 2PD Noteworthy Normal 2PD Skilled Normal 4PD Competent Normal 5PD 5ER p28 Character Ability Guidelines: Standard Normal 4PD Skilled Normal 6PD Competent Normal 8PD Standard Heroic 10PD. Yep... too bad Steve didn't provide Any guidelines at all isn't it. Not one to be found anywhere. Dang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net If that's the case, then they weren't paying attention in math class. The math never gets any harder than multiplying and dividing fractions - which I was taught in 5th grade. It's all arithmetic - there's no calculus, trigonometry, geometry, or even algebra. If you want to *analyze* or *modify* the game, some basic knowledge of probability and statistics might come in handy, but that isn't needed to *play* or even *GM* the game. Why do people always want to bring this up as if it's a question of intellect or education? It's not a question of being unable to do the math. It's a question of not wanting to do that much math. Some people don't want to add, subtract, multiply, divide, and multiply & divide fractions to make a character. Not wanting to do it doesn't make people stupid or uneducated. It just means they're rather prioritize their time with some other aspect of character creation. I'd also point out that on this very forum there's a thread about Hero's best product and the thing that seemed to get a lot of votes was Hero Designer: the little tool that keeps you from having to do all that math. So even some of the Hero System's strongest proponents don't really want to do the math if they don't have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net NCM for PD/ED is 8. They are in the range of Normal People at 2-6. I'd put a fit adult at 3-4. A toughened soldier at 4-6. A hard case at 5-8. I would put tough heroes like Indiana Jones at 6-12 range. John MacLane probably ranks around 8 or 10 IMO. You believe a hard man is at 8. Normals only 2-3. See what I mean about varies from Game To Game? and yet you blamed Steve. If I had 8 pd I could leap off the roof of a 5 story building and not suffer any broken bones. That is not normal and I think NCM for PD and ED should be 4, or maybe 5. Anyway, I said partially to blame. I think you should look up the word partial if you think I am blaming Steve. p.s. You think Indiana Jones should be immune to be beaten up by burly blokes with baseball bats? You think he can be run over by cars doing 40 or drop 50 feet and just get up? I never seen anything in the movies to suggest he had more than 3 or 4 PD. I'd give him a pretty high breakfall roll but not a massive PD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net Because blaming the writer for bad gamers bugs me... 5ER p345: Average Person 2PD Noteworthy Normal 2PD Skilled Normal 4PD Competent Normal 5PD 5ER p28 Character Ability Guidelines: Standard Normal 4PD Skilled Normal 6PD Competent Normal 8PD Standard Heroic 10PD. Yep... too bad Steve didn't provide Any guidelines at all isn't it. Not one to be found anywhere. Dang. See, now I would blame Steve. No wonder people think Hero is unrealistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net See' date=' now I would blame Steve. No wonder people think Hero is unrealistic.[/quote'] No one ever said Hero was. Hero is cinematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadodel Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Re: Hero threads on rpg.net What annoys me most at rpg.net is the complaints when the person complaining only has a very basic grasp of the rules and what they represent. I think Steven Long is at least partially to blame . Even rpg.net has a rule about making remarks about an author. Talk about their work, not the person sort of vibe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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