Question about "Pulp"

[NateDog]

Forgive my ignorance, but I am trying to make sure I really understand "Pulp".

 

I always thought it was more related to a specific time period, and I think about detective and damsels and such. I consider "Cthulu" pulpish.

 

But in trying to educate myself by reading some posts here and wikipedia I have seen mention of western pulp and sci-fi pulp, and read some examples of pulp that don't fiy my ideas, so I am assuming that my thinking is inaccurate.

 

Can anyone give me a better definition/"guidelines" for what Pulp is?

Thanks!

[Cancer]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Old thread on just about exactly the same question

[NateDog]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Thanks for the link. There is some great info in there.

[telemachus]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Since I see this so often, I thought I should clarify the whole thing a little bit. "Pulp" technically has one meaning, that being the magazines printed on cheap, pulp paper,or the stories that appeared in them. Pulp magazines covered a whole lot of ground over the 40+ years they were around and calling every kind of story that appeared in them "pulp" can be very misleading.

 

Usually, what people nowadays mean when they're talking about pulps or pulp fiction is one of two things- "hero" pulps like Doc Savage and The Shadow or hard-boiled detective stories about Sam Spade, Philip Marlowe and the like (including sleaze-o stuff by writers like Robert Leslie Bellam).

 

Movies like Indiana Jones or The Rocketeer that are often referred to as being "pulpy" are actually based directly on the old movie serials, not the pulps. They were the film equivalent of the hero pulps, but had as much in common with comic books and comic strips of the time (there were serials based on Captain Marvel, Blackhawk, Flash Gordon, and Buck Rogers, for example). Like movie serials, "film noir" movies were the cinema equivalent of the crime/detective pulps, many of them taken directly from stories that appeared in the magazines (like Hammet's "The Maltese Falcon or Chandler's "The Big Sleep".)

 

It seems like "pulp" has come to mean cheap thrills from the 30's and 40's, but that type of "cheap, fast, and out of control" storytelling, whether it's in the form of film, print, or even radio, to a smaller extent was a product of the time just before, during, and after World War II.

 

I guess if you had to give it all one name, it might as well be "pulp", but calling Daredevils of the Red Circle "pulp" is like calling "The Master of the World" "steampunk". It just don't seem right, I tells ya!

[S. John Ross]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

It just don't seem right' date=' I tells ya![/quote']

 

It definitely takes a bit of adjustment (I'm a pulp collector as well as a pulp gamer, and when moving from hobby-community to hobby-community the whole language changes a bit)

 

I addressed this briefly in Pulp Hero (first paragraph, page 340, where I characterize my own take on the manifold nature of what RPGs call "pulp," with implied contrast to how pulp-collectors tend to divvy the matter) ... I wanted to make it clear that I was writing about an RPG genre above all (one which has only existed since the dawn of the 80s, more or less), and not any particular type of actual pulp-magazine story.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

The Pulp Avengers is the pithiest online essay I've seen dealing with the nature of pulp, particularly as it relates to gaming. You might also benefit from this classic pulp campaign website, The Empire Club. The descriptions of numerous pro- and antagonists, and the extensive campaign logs, provide quite a broad cross-section of the range of pulp characters and adventures.

 

If you'd like to see some examples of pulp-era characters written up by your fellow HEROphiles, these websites provide a nice selection, as well as several other useful resources:

 

Thrilling True Tales

 

Amazing Adventures

 

Daredevils

 

The Odyssey League

[S. John Ross]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Movies like Indiana Jones or The Rocketeer that are often referred to as being "pulpy" are actually based directly on the old movie serials' date=' not the pulps.[/quote']

 

Or in the case of The Rocketeer specifically, based on a modern retro-styled Dave Stevens comic book created at least partly as an excuse to draw Bettie Page a lot

[BigJackBrass]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Or in the case of The Rocketeer specifically' date=' based on a modern retro-styled Dave Stevens comic book created at least partly as an excuse to draw Bettie Page a lot [/quote']

 

Not that any excuse is needed, mind

[S. John Ross]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Not that any excuse is needed' date=' mind [/quote']

 

Definitely not Especially when it's Dave Stevens doing the drawing ...

[telemachus]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

I addressed this briefly in Pulp Hero (first paragraph, page 340, where I characterize my own take on the manifold nature of what RPGs call "pulp," with implied contrast to how pulp-collectors tend to divvy the matter) ... I wanted to make it clear that I was writing about an RPG genre above all (one which has only existed since the dawn of the 80s, more or less), and not any particular type of actual pulp-magazine story.

 

If only all those other games would have chapters like "The Pulp Feel" (hell, even that first paragraph)! I guess I'm just trying to preserve the sanctity of the pulps, whatever that is.

 

I think back in the days of Dave Cook's "Crimefighters", FGU's "Daredevils", and Hero Games' "Justice, Inc.", the pulps, in whatever flavor, hadn't yet bubbled back to the surface quite like they have in the past ten years or so, mainly attracting those that already had a familiarity with the magazines (I have my dad's copy of Steranko's History of Comics, with it's chapter on the pulps, to thank for turning me on to them at an early age.)

 

Anyway, I wasn't picking on Pulp Hero or the other pulp rpg's for that; I've heard or read that same sort of confusion among the unwashed masses in circles outside of gaming. Personally, I blame Pulp Fiction for it, but I could be wrong.

[telemachus]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Or in the case of The Rocketeer specifically' date=' based on a modern retro-styled Dave Stevens comic book created at least partly as an excuse to draw Bettie Page a lot [/quote']

 

And Stevens' Rocketeer was, in turn, based on the Commando Cody/Rocketman serials, bringing the concept full circle. In fact, I still have my issues of Starslayer that introduced him (and caused me to quickly lose interest in the title character.)

 

I don't have any hard evidence, but I'd say that it was Stevens that single-handedly started the Bettie revival. I can only think of two publications before Rocketeer appeared that made any mention of Miss Page, but I'm not at liberty to discuss them here.

 

Email me if you're interested in what they are.

[S. John Ross]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

And Stevens' Rocketeer was' date=' in turn, based on the Commando Cody/Rocketman serials[/quote']

 

Yes indeed

 

I don't have any hard evidence, but I'd say that it was Stevens that single-handedly started the Bettie revival.

 

Yeah, he's widely credited for it, and I've never seen anything to make me doubt it. And his ability to capture the sweetness/playfulness in her expressions borders on the supernatural ... These days, hundreds if not thousands of artists draw Bettie, but few come close to Stevens for really capturing her.

[Spence]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

And Stevens' Rocketeer was, in turn, based on the Commando Cody/Rocketman serials, bringing the concept full circle. In fact, I still have my issues of Starslayer that introduced him (and caused me to quickly lose interest in the title character.)

 

I don't have any hard evidence, but I'd say that it was Stevens that single-handedly started the Bettie revival. I can only think of two publications before Rocketeer appeared that made any mention of Miss Page, but I'm not at liberty to discuss them here.

 

Email me if you're interested in what they are.

 

Woot!

 

Commando Cody! Sky Marshall of the Universe!

 

I have the entire 1952 serial "Radar Men from the Moon!!!"

 

[S. John Ross]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

I think back in the days of Dave Cook's "Crimefighters"' date=' FGU's "Daredevils", and Hero Games' "Justice, Inc.", the pulps, in whatever flavor, hadn't yet bubbled back to the surface quite like they have in the past ten years or so, mainly attracting those that already had a familiarity with the magazines [...']

 

I think that's true of Crimefighters, but I don't think it's an exaggeration to suggest that, if not for the release of Raiders of the Lost Ark in the summer of 1981, adventure-pulp gaming would never have gelled into anyting but a forgotten curiosity, and Justice Inc. and Daredevils might never have been published at all (the designers may well have wanted to design those games, but Raiders made them a reasonable publishing risk). Professor Jones got gamers interested in the 1930s as an action-adventure backdrop, and also defined a lot of the postmodern blending of movie serials, radio drama, modern cinema and so on that still defines pulp gaming today. Really, in some ways, for a lot of gamers, "Pulp gaming" means "kind of like Indiana Jones," in shorthand (or "kind of like [insert the title of something more modern that wouldn't exist without Indiana Jones, like Hellboy]. Certainly, at the game shop where I worked in the 80s, most of the folks snapping up pulp-gaming material were turned onto it by Raiders first, and then later delved into the serials, pulps and radio dramas to the extent that their curiosity (or obsession for campaign research) carried them ...

 

And the early 80s was a good time to hit the books, too, since so many groovy pulp references had been assembled in the 70s ... Not just the Steranko and the Goodstone and the Goulart (I particularly dig the Goulart), but also books like "the Shudder Pulps" and "The Hero Pulp Index" could all be found in the public library in a small North Carolina town by then ... and it sure was a help that the public library shared a parking lot with the game shop ...

 

Okay, I'm being autobiographical, now, but that's the anecdotal version according to S. John

 

But seriously, I think Pulp (the RPG genre version) was fundamentally created by that one movie, and has been maintained by the small avalanche of things that were, in turn, inspired by that same movie ... and I think that's why (A) the RPG genre is the specific mix that it is and ( why Nazis are a HECK of a lot more common as 1930s Pulp RPG villains than they ever were in the '30s pulps.

 

But I think it's evolved into a very solid thing, the RPG genre ... People writing pulp RPG material right now (raises hand) are gamers who gamed in the heavily-Raiders-influenced 80s, but who also took the lead of the Dave Cooks and the Charettes and Humes and Allstons, Petersons, Stackpoles and others, and started delving heavily into pulp collecting, pulp preservation, and also spending far too many hours listening to radio shows, watching serials, and (this is the part where the gaming version really becomes distinct from all others) heavily exploring the history of the period. If you look at quality modern gaming resources on this genre-of-many-genres (stuff like Pulp Hero and the Iron Crown one from a few years ago and the GURPS one, likewise) you'll find more real-world detail on the 1930s than most real pulp-writers had a grasp of or interest in, partly because the world around them was ubiquitous, but also because gaming requires that more of the world be "real" for the characters to interact with, so the GM can reasonably respond to creative tactics and playful wanderings ... I think that gives the RPG genre of "Pulp" a special character that transcends a misunderstanding. It becomes something pretty awesome, something with its very own sanctity worth preserving. Of course, it falls on the GM to keep the history in perspective with the carefree fun (but that's another thing I got to write about in Pulp Hero)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Thank you, Mr. Ross. I could read your insightful, articulate musings all day.

[S. John Ross]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Thank you' date=' Mr. Ross. I could read your insightful, articulate musings all day. [/quote']

 

Don't get me puffed up or I'll start randomly advertising Sparks sets

[Steve Long]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

What, there's a d20 table you can roll on to randomly plug some Sparks?

 

On point -- I love the "Cairo Moon" Sparks set for Pulp. It partly inspired a massive 10-episode story arc for my "Thrilling Hero Tales" campaign... that sadly I have yet to be able to run.

[BigJackBrass]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

I love the "Cairo Moon" Sparks set for Pulp.

 

Yeah, that's a very nice set. I'm currently slapping myself on the forehead for leaving it installed on my old iMac and not the PC I have now... and I can't find the back-up disk anywhere... d'oh!

[S. John Ross]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Yeah' date=' that's a very nice set. I'm currently slapping myself on the forehead for leaving it installed on my old iMac and not the PC I have now... and I can't find the back-up disk anywhere... d'oh![/quote']

 

See the "File Replacements" section of the Policies page (fourth section down):

 

http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/policy.htm

 

Cumberland stuff is for life!

[Steve Long]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Cumberland stuff is for life!

 

Well, yeah, but that's because it's made from radioactive pixels!!!

[BigJackBrass]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

See the "File Replacements" section of the Policies page (fourth section down):

 

http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/policy.htm

 

Cumberland stuff is for life!

 

What a nice chap

 

I've been hoping that the disk will turn up, as I'm currently boxing everything up and moving house, but no joy as yet so I'll check my order details and get back to you. Much obliged, sir.

[S. John Ross]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

Well' date=' yeah, but that's because it's made from radioactive pixels!!! [/quote']

 

Only the modern stuff! The pulp-era material is fashioned from a special Martian version of argon-enhanced radio rays.

 

The guy who sold 'em to me tried to explain, but he was interrupted by some angry gorillas wearing Egyptian head-dresses and had to go fight 'em. I was stuck babysitting the elderly professor's beautiful and nubile yet entirely innocent-in-the-ways-of-the-world daughter.

 

It's so difficult being me.

[telemachus]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

I agree with you whole-heartedly on pretty much every point about the effect Raiders had. I recall a sudden lack of "Indiana Jones hats" in the thrift stores in the area right after Raiders came out (probably whips, too.) By the way, shouldn't that be "Nazi 1984 TSR, Inc.?"

 

About the lack of real world detail- I'd read in, I believe, Danger Is My Business that pulp writers were actually sticklers for detail, although that may have only applied to the higher profile magazines like Adventure.

[S. John Ross]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

About the lack of real world detail- I'd read in' date=' I believe, [i']Danger Is My Business[/i] that pulp writers were actually sticklers for detail, although that may have only applied to the higher profile magazines like Adventure.

 

Sure, some were (and some weren't, and some notorious ones pretended to be, and some were sincere but desperately needed Google); I wasn't commenting on the pulpsters' own habits, just on their needs and resources. A 5,000-word short-story needs only a finite amount of detail (well-researched or otherwise), and the author gets to decide what those needs are ... While an RPG GM, by contrast, doesn't get to make those decisions except in a very preliminary form, until the PCs show up and change the story's needs on the fly with inventive roleplaying.

 

And even some of the hardcore sticklers were hamstrung by poor information, especially on overseas matters or matters outside their focus (Erle Stanley Gardner knew the law firsthand and could run circles around other writers attempting legal drama, but he wrote some very embarassing things about firearms and foreign countries, for one example)

 

Reading pulpster biographies is always a bit eerie because the pulpsters were a lot like RPG writers in many respects (up to and including gaming together -- a lot of the pulp writers in New York City did naval miniatures) ... the same kinds of cliquishness, the same crappy pay, the same (unfortunate) tendency for many of them to hold their own work in contempt because they'd rather be writing for the slicks, etc ...

[Steve Long]

Re: Question about "Pulp"

 

the same crappy pay

 

Literally, in a sense. They got roughly 2-5 cents per word, depending on year, magazine, skill/name recognition, etc.

 

Today, when the dollar buys roughly one-tenth what it did then, freelance RPG writers get, on average... 2-5 cents per word.