Knockback and Power Frameworks

[Dr Archeville]

While using HD (v3) to make a character, I got a message saying Knockback should not be placed into an Elemental Control (or other Framework).

 

Why not?

 

(The EC was to be a "Gravity Controlling Belt," with Flight, Force Field, and Knockback, all OIHID.)

[Alibear]

Re: Knockback and Power Frameworks

 

Knockback resistance? Stick costs end on it and I'd allow a slot in a gravity control power for that.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Knockback and Power Frameworks

 

Density Increase and Clinging each have their own type of knockback resistance built in as well.

 

But as was already pointed out, all powers in an EC must either have originally cost END or take some type of costs END Limitation.

[Dr Archeville]

Re: Knockback and Power Frameworks

 

Is that the only issue? HD v3 keeps saying Knockback Resistance shouldn't be allowed even with Costs END.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Knockback and Power Frameworks

 

Is that the only issue? HD v3 keeps saying Knockback Resistance shouldn't be allowed even with Costs END.

 

Yeah, but it's only a warning, you can click past that message. It's due to the fact that KB Resistance is considered a 'Special' power and as such requires GM approval before being included in any Framework (just like Enhanced Senses for example).

[Simon]

Re: Knockback and Power Frameworks

 

As a note: both of those are settings which can be adjusted under the campaign rules -- they default to the Hero System rules, which is to warn (i.e. get GM approval). You can turn off the warning (and just allow them in general) or disallow them entirely, if desired.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Knockback and Power Frameworks

 

Standard power that don't normally cost END can be put into an EC without demur if you add the 'costs END' limitation. As HyperMan points out the problem is the 'Special Power' status. This leads us into an interesting discussion as to why we have special powers, but doesn't answer your question*. HD3 will allow you to force it into an EC, but you won't be playing a 'core rule legal' character.

 

 

 

 

*Actually it does, you fool.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Knockback and Power Frameworks

 

I would like to chime in on the issue of why we have special powers. I have played in campaigns where there were no restrictions (such as Special Powers and Linking) on Power Frameworks, here are some of my thoughts.

 

The cheap cost of the "exotic" defenses (I am lumping Lack of Weakness and Knockback Resistance in with the Exotic Defenses for purposes of this discussion) makes it easy to become totally invulnerable to some attack types.

 

For example, even 10 pts. of Lack of Weakness can render the character virtually immune to Find Weakness attempts (in skill roll capped campaigns). This gets even worse with Power and Mental Defense which, at even half the AP cap, can effectively make the defender immune to multiple powers at a time.

 

Examples assuming a 60 AP campaign.

a 6d6 Drain (60 AP) vs. 30 power defense (half-cap).

Average roll on 6d6 is 21 ish. Only an exeptional roll will yield even a small result. This is why Suppress is much more common than the other offensive adjustment powers or Transform. A 6d6 EGO Attack doesn't fair much better against Mental Defense, and 30 pts. of Mental Defense makes a better than an EGO +10 result all but impossible (for the other mental powers like Mind Control and Telepathy).

 

Conclusion: Allow these powers in a Framework and almost everyone is going to be immune to Ajustment Powers, Transform and Dispel, Mental powers, and Find Weakness. What does this have to do with Knockback Resistance? I have no idea.

 

Actually, back in my early Champions days (maybe Champs 3?), Knockback was considered an effective defensive tool for ranged attackers (who tended to spend more of their meager amount of points on attacks like Blast) against melee characters (who tended to have more points to spend on defense due to the cost breaks of HA, HKA, Marts, ect.). Knockback Resistance changed all that (Champs 4?). Even then, only Bricks tended to devote more than a few points to it. Now (in Champs 5) there are more points to spend at most campaign levels, making the Exotic Defenses more accessable. Make them even cheaper (by allowing them into Frameworks) and you might as well remove KB (and maybe some other systems like ECV) from your game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Knockback and Power Frameworks

 

I would like to chime in on the issue of why we have special powers. I have played in campaigns where there were no restrictions (such as Special Powers and Linking) on Power Frameworks, here are some of my thoughts.

 

The cheap cost of the "exotic" defenses (I am lumping Lack of Weakness and Knockback Resistance in with the Exotic Defenses for purposes of this discussion) makes it easy to become totally invulnerable to some attack types.

 

For example, even 10 pts. of Lack of Weakness can render the character virtually immune to Find Weakness attempts (in skill roll capped campaigns). This gets even worse with Power and Mental Defense which, at even half the AP cap, can effectively make the defender immune to multiple powers at a time.

 

Examples assuming a 60 AP campaign.

a 6d6 Drain (60 AP) vs. 30 power defense (half-cap).

Average roll on 6d6 is 21 ish. Only an exeptional roll will yield even a small result. This is why Suppress is much more common than the other offensive adjustment powers or Transform. A 6d6 EGO Attack doesn't fair much better against Mental Defense, and 30 pts. of Mental Defense makes a better than an EGO +10 result all but impossible (for the other mental powers like Mind Control and Telepathy).

 

Conclusion: Allow these powers in a Framework and almost everyone is going to be immune to Ajustment Powers, Transform and Dispel, Mental powers, and Find Weakness. What does this have to do with Knockback Resistance? I have no idea.

 

Actually, back in my early Champions days (maybe Champs 3?), Knockback was considered an effective defensive tool for ranged attackers (who tended to spend more of their meager amount of points on attacks like Blast) against melee characters (who tended to have more points to spend on defense due to the cost breaks of HA, HKA, Marts, ect.). Knockback Resistance changed all that (Champs 4?). Even then, only Bricks tended to devote more than a few points to it. Now (in Champs 5) there are more points to spend at most campaign levels, making the Exotic Defenses more accessable. Make them even cheaper (by allowing them into Frameworks) and you might as well remove KB (and maybe some other systems like ECV) from your game.

 

I agree with the sentiment but differ in approach.

 

Whilst I would raise an eyebrow (probably the player's) if I saw an MP or VPP with every defence under the sun in place, I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing that the option to put special powers in frameworks (or just get rid of the 'special power designator') should be considered. in fact, given that force fields (which are NOT special powers) can have flash, power and mental defence, by and large the distinction is fading already.

 

Sure we should be wary of the character with a MP like this:

 

60 points

 

12 Slot 1: MULTI - 40 PD armour

12 Slot 2: MULTI - 40 ED armour

6 Slot 3: MULTI - 30 Mental defence

6 Slot 4: MULTI - 30 Power defence

3 Slot 5: MULTI - 15 Lack of Weakness

3 Slot 6: MULTI - 15 Flash defence

4 Slot 7: MULTI - 10" KBR

 

Bear in mind that the character has spent 106 points there, and is by no means invulnerable. Sure he has a lot of options, but unless he keeps getting hit by the same attack phase after phase, that flexibility is a trap. He could walk around with 10/10 armour, 10 MD, 10 PowD, 5 FD and 5 LoW, but if he'd just bought it all 'straight', he could have 20/20 armour, 15 Md and Pow D, 5 Low, 5 FD and -3" KBR all the time.

 

It is a trade off. Whilst I agree that certain defences are 'more useful' because the attack total are lower to start off with, you can get round that a number of ways.

 

I'm not that bothered about MPs, or even ECs. VPPs scare the bejeezus out of me though, and i'm always VERY careful about allowing them in. I can see how special powers can be abused there (especially senses and life support)