Powers as disadvantages

[Dauntless]

It seems like too many characters take similar disadvantages leading to somewhat homogenized characters. I was trying to think of new disadvantage categories when something else crossed my mind.

 

What about powers which only had bad effects? For example, a power which when used caused damage to the wielder (like maybe the person has to concentrate very hard inflicting biofeedback damage)? What about a character so good looking that he attracts ugly people (or even the same sex!)? What about a character who psychically broadcasts his presence to his foes (he is always "visible" to them) but not his friends? How about a power which can "backfire", inflicting the damage back on the wielder?

 

The Uncontrollable limitation isn't quite the same since generally the power doesn't harm the character although it can be inconvenient. Instead, you can just think up of a power, and cause "triggers" which work against the character. These also aren't susceptibilities or vulnerabilities. These are either powers with unintended affects that ONLY work against the character and are defined by certain trigger events.

[Jeff]

Re: Powers as disadvantages

 

Originally posted by Dauntless

It seems like too many characters take similar disadvantages leading to somewhat homogenized characters. I was trying to think of new disadvantage categories when something else crossed my mind.

 

What about powers which only had bad effects? For example, a power which when used caused damage to the wielder (like maybe the person has to concentrate very hard inflicting biofeedback damage)?

 

This'd be a Side Effect. Alternatively, you could buy it as a Susceptability to the use of one's own power.

 

What about a character so good looking that he attracts ugly people (or even the same sex!)?

 

Got a few ways to do this. One of the weirder ways would be No Conscious Control on COM. I don't recommend it. Otherwise, this is one likely effect of Distinctive Features, a source of unusual and really unwanted DNPC's maybe, a Social Limitation, or an unusual sort of Watched. (If it gets to the point of stalking, it might be a Mildly Punish or even Harshly Punish. I don't think Grond, for instance, has the emotional maturity to handle unrequited adoration safely....)

 

What about a character who psychically broadcasts his presence to his foes (he is always "visible" to them) but not his friends?

 

Another odd Distinctive Feature, or an unusual source of that "very easy to find" Hunted bonus.

 

How about a power which can "backfire", inflicting the damage back on the wielder?

 

Side Effects here too.

 

The Uncontrollable limitation isn't quite the same since generally the power doesn't harm the character although it can be inconvenient. Instead, you can just think up of a power, and cause "triggers" which work against the character. These also aren't susceptibilities or vulnerabilities. These are either powers with unintended affects that ONLY work against the character and are defined by certain trigger events.

 

I think the problem might not be a need for new mechanics so much as to explore some unconventional applications of existing disadvantage types and limitations.

[Dauntless]

Side Effects can explain some effects, but not all. Essentially it cheapens the power, but isn't really a "disadvantage" per se. While I can see how this might work for some examples...like the backfiring power or the self-damaging power...what about things that are effectively curses?

 

For example, the curse in which enemies can always detect you isn't really a side effect of any power...it's just something inherent in your character's background. It's not based off of a power...it's just something that disadvantages you because now you can never sneak up on enemies.

 

Some curses could be explained by modified characteristics. Let's say you want a character that horrible with the opposite sex. Maybe you could buy -10 PRE and -6 COM only against the Opposite sex. But somehow that seems kludgy.

 

What if your character has been cursed and is teleported away if he is tricked into saying "why?"? Furthermore, the character can not "consciously" use this to his benefit...in other words, if he says "Why?" to get out of danger. The character does not have a teleportation power, so it's not a side effect, and it can't be used in an advantageous way.

 

I think a new category called Curse should be included that covers cases like these. The trick is some of these are very similar to other categories. For example, I wanted to create something like "frequent muscle pulls", which might be whenever he fails a physical roll by more than 4 points, he takes damage (bought as a 2d6 NND attack). But this could be overlapped with Physical Limitation infrequent, minor handicap. What IS better about the Curse method is that the effects are specifically qualified, rather than leaving it entirely up to GM discretion.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Dauntless

Side Effects can explain some effects, but not all. Essentially it cheapens the power, but isn't really a "disadvantage" per se. While I can see how this might work for some examples...like the backfiring power or the self-damaging power...what about things that are effectively curses?

 

For example, the curse in which enemies can always detect you isn't really a side effect of any power...it's just something inherent in your character's background. It's not based off of a power...it's just something that disadvantages you because now you can never sneak up on enemies.

 

Some curses could be explained by modified characteristics. Let's say you want a character that horrible with the opposite sex. Maybe you could buy -10 PRE and -6 COM only against the Opposite sex. But somehow that seems kludgy.

 

What if your character has been cursed and is teleported away if he is tricked into saying "why?"? Furthermore, the character can not "consciously" use this to his benefit...in other words, if he says "Why?" to get out of danger. The character does not have a teleportation power, so it's not a side effect, and it can't be used in an advantageous way.

 

I think a new category called Curse should be included that covers cases like these. The trick is some of these are very similar to other categories. For example, I wanted to create something like "frequent muscle pulls", which might be whenever he fails a physical roll by more than 4 points, he takes damage (bought as a 2d6 NND attack). But this could be overlapped with Physical Limitation infrequent, minor handicap. What IS better about the Curse method is that the effects are specifically qualified, rather than leaving it entirely up to GM discretion.

 

Most of the suggestions were disadvantages, and the curses suggested also look like disadvantages. Someone whose appearance is specifically and unusually offensive to the opposite sex would have it as a Distinctive Feature or Social Limitation. I guess you could do that one with limitations on COM and PRE (probably including the base 10 points too), but I'd think that was kludgy too.

 

Being persistently detectable by enemies looks like Distinctive Features - certainly an unusual variety of them, but certainly something that can be modelled appropriately with that disad.

 

Frequent muscle pulls with damage defined like that is tailor-made as a Susceptability.

 

If you're teleported off in some inconvenient, unwanted direction whenever "why?" is uttered in your presence, you've got yourself one weird Susceptibility. You just figure out an equivalence of the effect as an attack with the damage values for Susceptability - probably leaning on the much more detailed section on Side Effects for help there.

 

Just as with skills, perks, talents, powers, limitation, and frameworks, Hero System disadvantages are game mechanics meant to be used for a wide variety of effects, in whatever genre. You don't need a "Curse" disadvantage - you just use whatever disadvantage provides the effect of the curse you're looking for.

[Snarf]

If you're teleported off in some inconvenient, unwanted direction whenever "why?" is uttered in your presence, you've got yourself one weird Susceptibility. You just figure out an equivalence of the effect as an attack with the damage values for Susceptability - probably leaning on the much more detailed section on Side Effects for help there.

I agree, this is definitely what you're looking for Dauntless. Except these rules assume an attack power, so if you want to do something merely inconvenient, like the "why?" teleport effect, I would make the effect 20 or 30 APs for every +5.

 

If the "why?" teleport dropped you off of buildings, in front of cars, or usually caused some physical harm the rules work fine as is. But if it just sent you away from the action or got you stuck in a cell or something, it should have way more APs.

 

-25 Teleported Somewhere Hazardous Whenever "Why?" Is Spoken: Susceptibility to the word "Why?" (uncommon, hazardous, 20" Teleportation)

 

-25 Teleported Somewhere Inconvenient Whenever "Why?" Is Spoken: Susceptibility to the word "Why?" (uncommon, inconvenient, 60" Teleportation)

 

Or the GM could just disallow any form of susceptibility that doesn't seem as harmful as the equivalent amount of damage.

 

This teleport thing should be about as bad as 4d6 normal damage (or 4d6 of stun damage that turns to body damage when you're knocked out, to be precise).

[Yamo]

Some curses could be explained by modified characteristics. Let's say you want a character that horrible with the opposite sex. Maybe you could buy -10 PRE and -6 COM only against the Opposite sex. But somehow that seems kludgy.

 

You have it a little backwards. The proper way to do this would be to buy his natural COM very low and then purchase extra COM with something like a "Not Versus The Opposite Sex (-1)" Limitation.

[caris]

The Physical Limitation Disadvantage would also go a long way in helping model these effects. There is at least one published character that suffers skill and characteristic roll penalties under certain conditions as a Phys Lim.

 

You might do Unattractive to Opposite Sex: 10pt Phys. Lim (Infrequently, Greatly) The character suffers a –4D6 penalty to positive presence attacks and a –4 skill and character roll penalties on all positive interaction rolls with members of the opposite sex.

 

You might do Broadcast Location to Opponents: 20 pt Phys. Lim (Frequently, Fully) The character is completely unable to approach some one they are intending to engage in combat unnoticed. The person being approached will always notice the approach. At the very least the character will never be able to get the “surprised out of combat†bonus against their attackers. Anyone attacking the character would also always have the equivalent of a successful PER roll with a non-targeting sense on the character. The character could get surprise bonuses based on doing something unexpected, but never from targets being unaware of them.

[Dauntless]

There's a couple problems with the Curses as Physical Limitations use. First off, you can only have so many points in each disadvantage category...by having a new category it allows for more points in the different areas.

 

Secondly, the Physical Limitation disadvantages aren't very specific about how they affect the character. Take for example Rogue's ability to mindwipe people when she touches them for too long. Now this CAN have a beneficial aspect because she can do this to her enemies as well as her friends. But what if she was cursed so she only does this to non-enemies? How is this reflected by a Physical Limitation: "Can not touch people who have no ill-intentions against her"?

 

By buying a power like Absorbtion or Telepathy combined with a Permanent INT Drain, you can come up with a much more detailed effect and more precise point costs.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that there are grey areas which don't precisely fit the intended definition of the current disadvantage categories and would have better explained effects by buying powers as disadvantages. The curse of attracting the same sex or ugly people doesn't exactly work with COM or PRE rolls because it only shows the skill benefits, not the ramifications (although it could be represented by a Social Limitation...but then in a way it DOES offer a bonus when interacting with a certain class of people....so this is a strange one). Also, having enemies you can never sneak up on wouldn't be a Distinctive Feature disadvantage because that category is meant to show that a character might be repulsive, or easily recognizeable...not easily detectable. I think it would be better purchased either as some kind of Combat Skill Level useable by others, only for detection, or a Detect Sense group useable by others.

 

Curses would probably only be applicable in Fantasy or Superhero settings....heroic settings from other genres wouldn't fit it very well.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Dauntless

There's a couple problems with the Curses as Physical Limitations use. First off, you can only have so many points in each disadvantage category...by having a new category it allows for more points in the different areas.

 

Raise the limit if you need to. It's one of the things you do in making a campaign run and feel the way you want it to. For that matter, maybe there should be a limit on how much disadvantage a character should have in a grab-all like Physical Limitations - or in curses that can be defined that way. After all, if you think there's a need for a limit on the points from Physical Limitations, it's hard to see why you wouldn't think there should be a limit on the number of points from Physical Limitations plus curses that have the same effects.

 

Secondly, the Physical Limitation disadvantages aren't very specific about how they affect the character. Take for example Rogue's ability to mindwipe people when she touches them for too long. Now this CAN have a beneficial aspect because she can do this to her enemies as well as her friends. But what if she was cursed so she only does this to non-enemies? How is this reflected by a Physical Limitation: "Can not touch people who have no ill-intentions against her"?

 

Then don't do that one with a Physical Limitation. It's a Side Effect on a power, if it's a power that's got a persistently undesireable effect. Of course it's not going to be reflected by "Cannot touch people who have no ill-intentions against her".

 

It's not an argument that you need new mechanics because you can't do X with limitations on a power when you can do it with existing disadvantages, nor is it an argument that you need new mechanics because you can't do X with disadvantages when you can do it with existing or available limitations.

 

By buying a power like Absorbtion or Telepathy combined with a Permanent INT Drain, you can come up with a much more detailed effect and more precise point costs.

 

Congratulations - you've defined the power you're looking for. If you can't help but use it, like it or not, you're looking at Always On and/or No Conscious Control. If it's got problems assocaited with it that aren't adequately handled with those, consider Side Effects or disadvantages.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that there are grey areas which don't precisely fit the intended definition of the current disadvantage categories and would have better explained effects by buying powers as disadvantages. The curse of attracting the same sex or ugly people doesn't exactly work with COM or PRE rolls because it only shows the skill benefits, not the ramifications (although it could be represented by a Social Limitation...but then in a way it DOES offer a bonus when interacting with a certain class of people....so this is a strange one).

I don't follow this one. Attracting people you don't want to attract might well be something with both benefits and problems - in which case, buying it as both a few points of COM/PRE and as a disadvantage might be square-on.

Also, having enemies you can never sneak up on wouldn't be a Distinctive Feature disadvantage because that category is meant to show that a character might be repulsive, or easily recognizeable...not easily detectable.

 

This is a narrower interepretation of the disadvantage than reading its description would bear out.

 

I think it would be better purchased either as some kind of Combat Skill Level useable by others, only for detection, or a Detect Sense group useable by others.

Increased detectablity is routinely bought as a Physical Limitation. It's required nowadays for being large, since always on Growth is now taboo.

[Dauntless]

I'm just trying to say that the system can work without a category like curses, but it would be more elegant and less kludgy if there is one.

 

As it stands, there are some cases which could be represented by current categories, but it's either like hammering a round peg into a square hole, or much of the effects of the disadvantage are up to the GM's imagination. By defining power constructs that specifically define how the disadvantage effects the character, it takes some of the ambiguity out of the disadvantage. I find this a more elegant solution than retrofitting a current category to apply the same effect.

 

I'm not trying to say, "look I found a weakness in the Hero System!", but I'm just trying to take a little of the guesswork out of things for GM's. You could do something like my, "pull muscles easily", or "trick knee" disadvantage to represent a former athlete who injured himself as a physical limitation or a susceptibility (to running I guess?), but by buying them as powers with activation rolls which do not COST points, but rather act as disadvantages, the effect is more plainly spelled out. Afterall, how would you "limit" a character with such a disadvantage? Do you say that he just can't run? Well, that's not quite true because he CAN, he'll either be less effective at running, or in pain while he runs (constantly taking NND damage). If you go the Susceptibility route, the trick knee doesn't ALWAYS give out if you do something...it depends on several factors. If you simply take the Physical Limitation disadvantage, the GM has to come up with this stuff on his own. Why not use the built in flexibility of the Power with accompaning limitations rules to go ahead and define precisely how the disadavantage is limiting? Whatever the final cost of the power is is the amount of points the character gains in disadvantages.

 

Another problem with Physical Limitations because by definition they define something the character can not do under certain conditions. By saying trick knee or "pulled muscles", it affects the character but not necessarily in a way that he can not physically do them...he may but with certain penalties imposed. Or like in the curse where the guy is transported when he says "Why?, Susceptibility doesn't work because Susceptibility only works by inflicting damage on things that are normally harmful.....Teleportation Or Desolidification or Entangle are not defined by Susceptibility. I have a hunch some GM's already do this...they take the existing Disadvantages, and then define how the disadvantages work by assigning powers against the character.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Powers as disadvantages

 

Originally posted by Dauntless

It seems like too many characters take similar disadvantages leading to somewhat homogenized characters. I was trying to think of new disadvantage categories when something else crossed my mind.

 

What about powers which only had bad effects? For example, a power which when used caused damage to the wielder (like maybe the person has to concentrate very hard inflicting biofeedback damage)?

 

Side Effects.

 

What about a character so good looking that he attracts ugly people (or even the same sex!)?

 

Distinctive Features

 

What about a character who psychically broadcasts his presence to his foes (he is always "visible" to them) but not his friends?

 

Very iffy, but it would be a Distinctive Feature.

 

How about a power which can "backfire", inflicting the damage back on the wielder?

 

Side Effects.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Dauntless

Side Effects can explain some effects, but not all. Essentially it cheapens the power, but isn't really a "disadvantage" per se. While I can see how this might work for some examples...like the backfiring power or the self-damaging power...what about things that are effectively curses?

 

For example, the curse in which enemies can always detect you isn't really a side effect of any power...it's just something inherent in your character's background. It's not based off of a power...it's just something that disadvantages you because now you can never sneak up on enemies.

 

Thus it is Distinctive Features. The ability to give someone this curse would be built as a Transform.

 

Some curses could be explained by modified characteristics. Let's say you want a character that horrible with the opposite sex. Maybe you could buy -10 PRE and -6 COM only against the Opposite sex. But somehow that seems kludgy.

 

Transform to give the target Distinctive Features.

 

What if your character has been cursed and is teleported away if he is tricked into saying "why?"? Furthermore, the character can not "consciously" use this to his benefit...in other words, if he says "Why?" to get out of danger. The character does not have a teleportation power, so it's not a side effect, and it can't be used in an advantageous way.

 

You can build this as a Power with the Usable As Attack Advantage. It could also be done by Transforming the character.

 

Hero System Almanac I for 4th edition (watch ebay for it) discusses using the Usable As Attack Advantage to simulate curses.

[Snarf]

...defining power constructs that specifically define how the disadvantage effects the character, it takes some of the ambiguity out of the disadvantage...

Dauntless, you should definitely check out the AP option for susceptibility on p.221. The more you describe, the more convinced I am that this is what you're looking for.

[Farkling]

And other variants on the themes, referred to more commonly as Farkling's two cents::

 

We routinely purchase mutant as a distinctive feature in my world. The Mutant Registration Acts are in Congress, and there are problems with being a mutant. So, we have a Distinctive Feature causing a major reaction and detectable by a simple blood test, the more "human baseline" mutants can take a lesser version that requires "complicated" or thorough testing.

 

Here's the blurry area though. That can also be done with Physical Limitations, but DF seems more elegant to me (and my players). Physical Limitations sometimes show up as "Radio Emitter" (bonuses to PER rolls to locate) or "Paralyzed by Sonic Emitters".

 

Now, the pulled muscles and worn out bodies sounds like one of the old super soldier gags. The formula didn't QUITE work... so, Jasper was "Susceptible to Sustained Physical Exertion, 2d6 STUN/minute" and recovered quickly due to the remnants of his regenerative abilities...out of combat he would literally pass out from the pain. Long Term Susceptibles are great. IceWarrior is Susceptible to Heat (1d6 Drain vs. Ice Powers/Hour) and has a seperate one for (3d6 STUN/Hour). The longer the Heat, the less his powers, until eventually he dies from his powers pulling the last of the moisture out of his body.

 

And the "noisy" or "unskilled" psychic has Vulnerability to Mind Scan for 2xeffect.

 

Overall, with the addition of Side Effects, and limited powers, I have a very thorough array of disadvantage type powers.

[VictorVonDoom]

In world like MU (Marvel Universe) any gifted -mutant - has a power that is for other people more a curse then a gift. For them it is a serious disadvantage to use it in public

 

maybe such characters not able to use powers in public due to what people fear what they don't know must take caution when using their power. In game terms let them take a physological limitation : can't use power in public or disadvantage : hunted by any power that has interest in such powers to abuse or to conquer the world

[Farkling]

Hi Victor!!

I have a moment, let me break it down the way I see it.

 

I think it would be more of a Psych Limit actually.

My rule of thumb about a restriction on "power usage" is this:

If the hero could do it in spite of the consequences, it is a Psychological Limitation.

If the hero CANNOT perform the action under any circumstances, it is a Physical Limitation.

 

Let's look at a mind control example.

We override the programming (Mind Control) a poor android (perhaps Data of Star Trek fame?)

 

We order him to kill a crew member (BOB) on his starship.

If he has a Psych Limit, his mind is fighting the Mind Control, and may break free. Or poor BOB may bite the big one.

 

A Physical Limitation of Cannot take a Human Life would cause our same android to lock up or freeze as he cannot even PERFORM the action. He is physically unable to do it!

 

The mutants are CAPABLE of using powers...just reluctant. And yes...there a re a few groups looking for the mutants...

 

My old example from 3rd edition onwards used swimming.

The Psych Limit "cannot swim" can be overridden, and the character could splash around and might swim.

 

The Physical Limitation "cannot swim" will not be overridden by any amount of effort. Toss the character in the water, and he sinks like a stone. (dwarfs anyone?)

[Farkling]

Hmmmm. This is a gray area. I apologize in advance if I offend you.

 

As a sidebar. (And no offense intended!!)

 

Does that make Autism a Psych Limit or a Physical Limitation?

Or could it be either?

 

You can function in spite of it, impying it has been "suppressed" by the appropriate EGO-roll (mental focus and concentration)

 

But it can never go away completely, acting much like a Physical Limitation.

 

And the rule as I remember it was "the hero may make an EGO roll to reduce the effects of his Pscyh Limit one level", meaning Total to Irrational, or Irrational to Moderate, or ignore the Moderate limit....

 

That imlies Psych limit. But I understood it to be a "hardwiring" problem in the brain (according to the NOVA special I caught on PBS).

 

Ah well....game physics never survive impact with reality.

 

Have a good day!

[VictorVonDoom]

but you are right: autisme is a psychic limitation but with my case it is also a physilogical "curse" and i have to compete with it each day it is like a power that goes haywire each time it is used

 

Why Physical because it affects my bodycontrols (motoric functions) and i can't behave properly hence i can't go to work so i am at home ...without a job hence physical problem

(i can't properly dress myself, make my dinner, eat an apple stand alone remove the shell of an apple)