Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

[CrosshairCollie]

The 'unusual/no sense group' concept still confuses the heck out of me. I'll boil my current conundrum down to a simple question:

 

The sense in question is Detect Physical Objects and Energy, Sense, Ranged, Targetting, and some other stuff (those of you with access to Holocaust's writeup in CKC, it's practically the same as his AllSense). Do I also need to buy it N-Ray to see through/past other objects, or is that included in the No Sense Group thing?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

It's kind of included, kind of not.

 

Because you're detecting physical objects you will detect the walls - I would interpret that to mean the sense "stops" when it reaches an object - in the same way that you can't see through a wall.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

It's kind of included, kind of not.

 

Because you're detecting physical objects you will detect the walls - I would interpret that to mean the sense "stops" when it reaches an object - in the same way that you can't see through a wall.

 

So, I'd need to buy N-Ray perception with the No Sense Group to get the effect I'm shooting for?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

With that particular Detect, yes I would say so.

[Comic]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Without N-Ray, a GM would adjudicate what was/wasn't transparent to such a sense depending on its special effects, and as a GM I would likely generally define most things as opaque, and few things as transparent.

 

Since Energy is included in the sense, more rather than fewer things would likely be opaque, including some things that normal vision would see through: ionized air, static charges, force walls/force effects of some types, heat haze, etc. -- depending on special effects.

 

With N-Ray, you're paying for more of your world to be transparent to your sense. Of course, if there are already senses that do exactly what this sense does when advantages are added, then I might recommend using those senses as the base, even if the immunity to Darkness and Flash powers intrinsic in having such a sense were lost, to avoid creating spurious special effects. Juggling too many unique energies can generate a headache for someone trying to build a campaign world that makes sense.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Being able to ignore barriers to senses should be an adder, or additional ability you pay points for, but it isn't. The problem arises because Hero defines senses in terms of WHAT we perceive rather than HOW we perceive i.e we detect physical objects rather than detect light between defined wavelengths and energies.

 

The short answer is that any sense you build from the ground up is automatically 'N-Ray'. In fact it is better than N-Ray because there is no actual requirement to define anything it CAN'T see past or through.

 

That lack wouldn't stop me imposing limits on a sense as a -0 limitation and coming down hard on anyone who whined about it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Personally, I like the open ended non-restrictive default.

 

there's no reason, IMO, that "Detect Magic" should be stopped by mundane walls for instance.

 

I would simply adjudicate it based on what you were Detecting - case by case.

And yes that means not all Detects are made equal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Personally, I like the open ended non-restrictive default.

 

there's no reason, IMO, that "Detect Magic" should be stopped by mundane walls for instance.

 

I would simply adjudicate it based on what you were Detecting - case by case.

And yes that means not all Detects are made equal.

 

I'm not saying it should be, or that the system should not allow such a build: I'm saying there should be an appropriate cost differentiation between senses restricted or stopped by common objects or phenomena, senses restricted or stopped by uncommon objects or phenomena and senses that can't be stopped at all. I'm not so keen on the 'one tool does it all' approach.

[tancred]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

I'm not saying it should be' date=' or that the system should not allow such a build: I'm saying there should be an appropriate cost differentiation between senses restricted or stopped by common objects or phenomena, senses restricted or stopped by uncommon objects or phenomena and senses that can't be stopped at all. I'm not so keen on the 'one tool does it all' approach.[/quote']

 

Sean, I don't often agree with you; I'm more of a "It works well enough; leave it alone" mindset.

 

But that makes SO very much sense it's frightening.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

I'm not saying it should be' date=' or that the system should not allow such a build: I'm saying there should be an appropriate cost differentiation between senses restricted or stopped by common objects or phenomena, senses restricted or stopped by uncommon objects or phenomena and senses that can't be stopped at all. I'm not so keen on the 'one tool does it all' approach.[/quote']

Right! The "N-Ray" thing is the one thing that really bugs me about how senses are handled in 5th. If it had been up to me, I'd take the cue from so many other things in HERO:

 

NND's have to define a "reasonably common" defense.

Continuous Attacks have to define a "reasonably common" way to turn off the power.

Desolidification has to have a "reasonably common" SFX that affects it.

etc.

 

I would say that every sense needs a "reasonably common" substance or phenomenon that it can't perceive through.

 

For sight, that would be opaque objects.

For hearing, that would be vibration-absorbing objects.

For smell, that would be non-porous, enclosing objects.

etc.

 

And then make "N-Ray" an adder that eliminates (or reduces) the barrier limitation.

 

For example: +5 points could allow sight though fairly low-density substances, such as wood, flesh, and light plastics, and +10 points could allow sight through anything but very dense substances like lead (X-Ray Vision).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Just to assure everyone that normal service WILL be resumed shortly

[Wanderer]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

The 'unusual/no sense group' concept still confuses the heck out of me. I'll boil my current conundrum down to a simple question:

 

The sense in question is Detect Physical Objects and Energy, Sense, Ranged, Targetting, and some other stuff (those of you with access to Holocaust's writeup in CKC, it's practically the same as his AllSense). Do I also need to buy it N-Ray to see through/past other objects, or is that included in the No Sense Group thing?

 

 

My current character happens to have a "cosmic awareness" type sense much similar to the one you mention. We always assumed as plain that any such sense can see through/past any object without any difficulty, for a variety of reasons. A) It's the way such senses work in source material. Spatial Awareness and N-Ray Perception, which are both explictly built to do so, are created as Detect Physical Objects C) An entry in the FAQ, which I'm going to quote, tells so explicitly:

 

How can you determine whether a Sense can perceive through physical objects, like walls?

This isn’t really a matter of establishing a hard-and-fast rule. It’s more an issue of considering what’s being detected, the nature of the Sense Group, and the special effects involved, and then applying your common and dramatic sense.

First, consider what the Detect is for. Typically, if it perceives something physical (such as Gold), it’s usually reasonable for other physical objects (like walls) to block perception of it. In some cases, the broader the category of perceivable objects, the less likely that axiom is to hold. For example, Detect Physical Objects (used to create things like N-Ray Perception and Spatial Awareness) would be useless if it couldn’t perceive all physical objects in the vicinity without being blocked by any of them.

Second, consider the Sense Group involved. If a character can “see” magic, it stands to reason that most things which block Sight block his Detect Magic, too. If he can “smell” water, anything that blocks Smell probably inhibits his Detect Water as well. This isn’t a universal rule, of course, but it’s a good guideline to follow in most instances.

Third, consider the special effects involved, particularly when you’re building a power. If you want to create a power that can Detect Magic without being blocked by physical objects, build it so that you don’t have to assign it to a Sense Group that would ordinarily have difficulty perceiving through physical objects. Then the whole issue becomes moot.

Last (but certainly not least), keep common sense and dramatic sense in mind. No set of rules can (or should) define everything, particularly not for such an abstract yet important topic as senses and perception. If your common sense tells you a Detect shouldn’t be able to perceive through walls, don’t let it (or, if you’re a player, decide that’s how your character’s power works and apply it that way). If your common sense tells you a Detect doesn’t make much sense (no pun intended) if it can’t perceive through walls (as with N-Ray Perception), then you should let it do so, even if that means reworking it a bit so that its effects are more obvious to another person who glances at your character sheet.

[casualplayer]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Maybe Senses should have to be bought with Indirect to circumvent barriers?

[Wanderer]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Maybe Senses should have to be bought with Indirect to circumvent barriers?

 

I don't see why they should, given that Indirect is fundamentally an Advantage fit for Attack powers (I can shoot you around the corner) and that some natural senses already include the ability to feel around barriers, such as Hearing and Smell. Like Telekinesis, some Senses simply have the ability to be automatically kinda-Indirect, by their very nature. It's an area where common sense has to trump system logic purism.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

I don't see why they should' date=' given that Indirect is fundamentally an Advantage fit for Attack powers (I can shoot you around the corner) and that some natural senses already include the ability to feel around barriers, such as Hearing and Smell. Like Telekinesis, some Senses simply have the ability to be automatically kinda-Indirect, by their very nature. It's an area where common sense has to trump system logic purism.[/quote']

 

Some senses already have Targeting built in as well. I don't believe we should adjudicate whether a custom sense has targeting based on SFX - if you want it to be Targeting, pay for the adder.

 

By the same token, I think there's a logic to requiring all senses that are not stopped by physical barriers to pay for that added functionality.

 

Alternatively, perhaps the rule should be that, by default, anything that does not stop the sense cannot be perceived by the sense. Yes, you can hear through a wall, but you can't hear that there IS a wall, so you walk into it if you try to navigate by hearing. If you want to be able to perceive beyond another thing you can perceive, you need an adder.

[Wanderer]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Some senses already have Targeting built in as well. I don't believe we should adjudicate whether a custom sense has targeting based on SFX - if you want it to be Targeting, pay for the adder.

 

By the same token, I think there's a logic to requiring all senses that are not stopped by physical barriers to pay for that added functionality.

 

Alternatively, perhaps the rule should be that, by default, anything that does not stop the sense cannot be perceived by the sense. Yes, you can hear through a wall, but you can't hear that there IS a wall, so you walk into it if you try to navigate by hearing. If you want to be able to perceive beyond another thing you can perceive, you need an adder.

 

Except that, differently from Targeting, no such Adder is assumed or provided by the rulesystem. Whether you can percieve through obstacles or beyond other things you can perceive, it is assumed to be based on SFX and common sense. Proof is, the default "detect through obstacles" powers, are defined as Detect Physical Stuff only, there's no trace of the Adder you ask for. Of course, you can houserule it in, if you really really feel it's necessary.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Except that' date=' differently from Targeting, no such Adder is assumed or provided by the rulesystem. Whether you can percieve through obstacles or beyond other things you can perceive, it is assumed to be based on SFX and common sense. Proof is, the default "detect through obstacles" powers, are defined as Detect Physical Stuff only, there's no trace of the Adder you ask for. Of course, you can houserule it in, if you really really feel it's necessary.[/quote']

 

I don't believe anyone is arguing that is the "rule as written". I believe the argument is that it seems inconsistent to require some characters to pay for the N Ray adder if they want to perceive beyond obstacles, while other characters get this benefit for free.

 

It does not seem unreasonable to expect two characters paying the same price would get the same ability, rather than allowing one to have a significant extra function the other does not receive.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Exactly! The fact that there is no "though barriers" adder in the book indicates to me that it's an oversight (no pun intended). A sense that can perceive through barriers has a significant advantage over one that doesn't, so there should be a cost difference, such as the Adder(s) I proposed back in post #10.

 

If the rulebook didn't include the NND advantage (bypassing all regular defenses), but gave an example of an attack power that would be granted such an ability for free, based on its SFX, I think we'd all notice this as blatantly unfair, and a glaring omission from the rules.

[Wanderer]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Arguing whether the ability to perceive through physical barriers should theoretically be paid for with an newfangled Adder, is one thing. Personally, I'm against it, and happy with canon, since it would unnecessarily complicate things, and I'm undaunted by the Indirect analogy, since being able to Attack through obstacles is way more useful than perceiving through them. Anyway, YMMV.

 

What I find absurd is to complain about the current system being unfair. In Hero, any sense that allows to perceive through walls needs to be built from the ground up, using Detect, and all Detects are more or less, barring SFX foibles, allowed to do that. N-Ray Perception, Spatial Awareness, Cosmic Awareness, they are but different names and different implied SFX for just the same thing and do the same thing. Of course, once you have created the Sense, you have to choose whether to leave it in Unusual sense group or link it to SFX esotic groups, or link to vanilla natural Senses. Either choice has advantages and drawbacks, and they balance out. It's not like Normal Sight Man gets unfairly singled out because he cannot see through walls, and has to buy N-RP, whileas Cosmic Awareness Guy gets it scot-free. They have to buy the same power, with a different name.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Personally' date=' I'm against it, and happy with canon, since it would unnecessarily complicate things,[/quote']

How so? Seems to me it would greatly simplify things. A simple Adder that lets you know, by its presense or absense, whether you can see through barriers. All these arguments (which we've had multiple times) go away.

 

What I find absurd is to complain about the current system being unfair.

You're right. When I said "unfair," that was probably too harsh a comparison to the senses issue.

 

But the question remains, what about senses "built from the ground up" that logically, by their SFX, *shouldn't* be able to see through barriers? They'll have to be given a custom Limitation which the GM will have to guestimate the value of. Again, simpler to just include, or exclude, an Adder.

[Wanderer]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

How so? Seems to me it would greatly simplify things. A simple Adder that lets you know, by its presense or absense, whether you can see through barriers. All these arguments (which we've had multiple times) go away.

 

 

You're right. When I said "unfair," that was probably too harsh a comparison to the senses issue.

 

But the question remains, what about senses "built from the ground up" that logically, by their SFX, *shouldn't* be able to see through barriers? They'll have to be given a custom Limitation which the GM will have to guestimate the value of. Again, simpler to just include, or exclude, an Adder.

 

Ok, I can see your point even if I don't share your discomfort with canon. However, I really dont think a new Adder would be the most appropriate response. If it's really needed, rather a new Limitation. Given that a) Normal Sight needs to be added one such newfangled "Detect" Sense to its Sense Group in order to have this ability concerning such Detects, SFX-wise, it is on average rather more common to have the ability to sense through barriers than not c) I don't really see the need to increase the typical character point bill in Hero yet again, and many character concepts are appropriate for such a Power, I deem far more appropriate to add a new Limitation to Detects that can't perceive through barriers, than a new Adder to allow to do so. Moreover, it would minimize changes from current canon. Defining a new canon Limitation, and assume all Detects can sense through physical barriers in its absence, would settle your concerns just as easily.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Given that a) Normal Sight needs to be added one such newfangled "Detect" Sense to its Sense Group in order to have this ability

Assuming I'm understanding this sentence correctly, I don't see what the problem is. You'd just buy a 10-point Adder to your normal Sight, and you've got your X-Ray Vision. Or add it to any other sense you like.

 

concerning such Detects, SFX-wise, it is on average rather more common to have the ability to sense through barriers than not

Of course! If we allow characters to have a very useful ability for free, who wouldn't take it? But since all of our normal, real-world senses have barriers, it seems that's the more logical place to start when building powered senses. IOW, "just like regular vision, except I can see through walls." Sounds like an Adder to me.

 

c) I don't really see the need to increase the typical character point bill in Hero yet again,

It doesn't increase the bill at all. It just changes a 10-point separate sense, into a 10-point Adder to an existing sense.

 

and many character concepts are appropriate for such a Power, I deem far more appropriate to add a new Limitation to Detects that can't perceive through barriers, than a new Adder to allow to do so. Moreover, it would minimize changes from current canon. Defining a new canon Limitation, and assume all Detects can sense through physical barriers in its absence, would settle your concerns just as easily.

Characters should pay an appropriate cost for what they can do. If there's a useful ability that some characters are getting for free, that other characters don't, then that should be corrected, even if it means they have to pay more then they have been. If someone made a mistake in your favor, and then they correct it, you have to pay more, because that's the fair price.

 

I don't see any logical reason why all Detects should, by default, be able to see through all barriers, that there should be nothing at all which blocks their perception. Among other reasons, there is nothing else in HERO that works that way. Every Attack has a Defense, and I think every Sense should have some type of barrier it can't see through.

 

IIRC, the description of N-Ray, requires just that, which is somewhat wierd: If N-Ray has to define something it can't perceive through, but other Detects don't, why would anyone buy N-Ray? Just buy a Detect, and let it automatically perceive through everything!

 

And as I said before, I'd even suggest a +5 Adder as a middle ground, to increase granularity, so you can reduce the commonness of barriers for your sense.

[Wanderer]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Assuming I'm understanding this sentence correctly' date=' I don't see what the problem is. You'd just buy a 10-point Adder to your normal Sight, and you've got your X-Ray Vision. Or add it to any other sense you like.[/quote']

 

Indeed there isn't a point. Just to show that the current system doesn't unfairly shortchange normal senses, since from their position, buying "sense through walls" is going to coats just the same.

 

Of course! If we allow characters to have a very useful ability for free, who wouldn't take it?

 

Following this reasoning to its logical consequences, Disadvantages and Limitations should not ever exist, since anything remotely and indirectly useful should be charged hard points, no matter how trivial and indirect. Let's ask people to pay points for their normal senses, 0-10 Characteristics, and ability to sire/bear children, instead of letting crippled characters rob the system by getting extra points. We cannot absolutely allow characters to get these precious abilities scot-free.

 

But since all of our normal, real-world senses have barriers, it seems that's the more logical place to start when building powered senses. IOW, "just like regular vision, except I can see through walls." Sounds like an Adder to me.

 

Or you can define that any kind of Super-Sense (AKA Detect) automatically comes with the ability to ignore barriers, and define Limitations and/or Negative Adders if they can't do that, either for some kinds of materials or all. Since super-senses aren't normal, it looks natural that normal obstacles don't stop them.

 

It doesn't increase the bill at all. It just changes a 10-point separate sense, into a 10-point Adder to an existing sense.

 

Yes, it does. Under your system, all people who bought any kind of "Sixth Sense" power, from Spatial Awareness to Magic Sense to Cosmic Awareness, not to mention Danger Sense, would be charged 10 points more. It looks unfair.

 

Characters should pay an appropriate cost for what they can do.

 

They do. They did pay the appropriate price for those Spatial Awareness, Cosmic Awareness, and Danger Sense.

 

If there's a useful ability that some characters are getting for free, that other characters don't, then that should be corrected, even if it means they have to pay more then they have been.

 

Or you can assume that such an ability is a fair part of the default package, and if anything, those who didn't got it are entitled to a refund. It is fair both ways. But my way keeps the customer significantly happier. Hero already has a not-so-unfunded reputation for annoyingly asking players to pay points for the most trivial things. IMO, your approach would just worsen the stereotype.

 

If someone made a mistake in your favor, and then they correct it, you have to pay more, because that's the fair price.

 

The issue is just on defining what is the fair price and what should go in the default package. You approach reminds me of those exploitative services and sellers that heap surcharge upon surcharge upon the most basic things. Like buying a car, and having to pay for the tires separately, and buying a ticket, and then having to pay to use the restroom.

 

I don't see any logical reason why all Detects should, by default, be able to see through all barriers, that there should be nothing at all which blocks their perception.

 

The same reason because Flight bought at default price allows the ability to hover and fly in any direction, without need of an Adder for that, and if you don't get it, you get a Limitation. Any Power comes with an expected minimum amount of effectivenes. Otherwise, you get into a trap of infinite granularity, trying to define ever-smaller amounts of usefulness and charge for each.

 

Among other reasons, there is nothing else in HERO that works that way. Every Attack has a Defense, and I think every Sense should have some type of barrier it can't see through.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, and others are entitled to respectfully but forcefully disagree. The analogy with Attacks is fallacious, since being able to damage something at range is whole degrees of magnitude more useful than being able to sense it. Moreover, it is not well supported by source material, since there are many more examples of ranged paranormal senses that are not stopped by ordinary barriers, and need extraordinary shielding to be stopped, if ever. Venerable as it may be, Superman's X-Ray Vision is but one example in a very broad genre, with many contrary examples, and I deem wholly unfair to base a whole power type on the foibles of one single homage legacy.

 

IIRC, the description of N-Ray, requires just that, which is somewhat wierd: If N-Ray has to define something it can't perceive through, but other Detects don't, why would anyone buy N-Ray? Just buy a Detect, and let it automatically perceive through everything!

 

See above. The flaw here is that canon Hero felt the unfortunate need to cater to the foibles of a legacy homage to Kryptonian superpowers, without providing for the price discount that would have balanced it. Ruining the elegance of a system in order to cater to homage for one legacy SFX is IMO contrary to the spirit of Hero of not reasoning from SFX. N-Ray should just get a slight discount for its one-material problem, and let Detects do their thing in peace. If you don't, indeed to buy N-Ray instead of a broad-scope Detect is rather dumb, but it's N-Ray that is written unbalanced, not the rest of Enhanced Senses. Asking 90% of SFX to pay more in order to leave the 10% unchanged is just bad system design.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Following this reasoning to its logical consequences' date=' Disadvantages and Limitations should not ever exist, since anything remotely and indirectly useful should be charged hard points, no matter how trivial and indirect. Let's ask people to pay points for their normal senses, 0-10 Characteristics, and ability to sire/bear children, instead of letting crippled characters rob the system by getting extra points. We cannot absolutely allow characters to get these precious abilities scot-free.[/quote']

I have no idea what you're talking about here. To me, being able to see through walls is not trivial.

 

Or you can define that any kind of Super-Sense (AKA Detect) automatically comes with the ability to ignore barriers, and define Limitations and/or Negative Adders if they can't do that, either for some kinds of materials or all. Since super-senses aren't normal, it looks natural that normal obstacles don't stop them.

Yes, you could do it with Limitations, but it seems easier to me to use Adders. A Detect can be as few as 3 points, in which case a Limitation isn't going to make much of a difference.

And yes, super-senses need not have "normal obstacles," but IMO, they should have some obstacle that they can't penetrate. Different real-world senses have different obstacles too. Opacity determines what you can see through. Gas-permeability determines what you can smell through. Vibration dampening determines what you can hear through. etc.

 

Yes, it does. Under your system, all people who bought any kind of "Sixth Sense" power, from Spatial Awareness to Magic Sense to Cosmic Awareness, not to mention Danger Sense, would be charged 10 points more. It looks unfair.

If they want the significant advantage of being able to perceive through barriers that others can't perceive through, then yes, they should pay more.

 

They do. They did pay the appropriate price for those Spatial Awareness, Cosmic Awareness, and Danger Sense.

Then no one would buy N-Ray Perception, since it seems to be included in any other detect, for free. How would you build Superman-style X-Ray Vision, that is, Normal Sight with the ability to see through almost all solid objects.

 

Or you can assume that such an ability is a fair part of the default package, and if anything, those who didn't got it are entitled to a refund. It is fair both ways. But my way keeps the customer significantly happier. Hero already has a not-so-unfunded reputation for annoyingly asking players to pay points for the most trivial things. IMO, your approach would just worsen the stereotype.

Fine. There are other ways as well. It'd be a bit more work, but it might be even better to rework the cost of Detects, which also seemed a little odd to me. The categories should be based on usefulness, rather than commonness/broadness of the category.

 

The issue is just on defining what is the fair price and what should go in the default package. You approach reminds me of those exploitative services and sellers that heap surcharge upon surcharge upon the most basic things. Like buying a car, and having to pay for the tires separately, and buying a ticket, and then having to pay to use the restroom.

Touched a nerve, did I? We can do without the personal characterizations. I could just as easily say you're the type who thinks when he buys a car, that he should get the gasoline for free. Or buying a one-way ticket and expecting the return ticket for free.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, and others are entitled to respectfully but forcefully disagree.

"forcefully"?

 

The analogy with Attacks is fallacious, since being able to damage something at range is whole degrees of magnitude more useful than being able to sense it.

So what? The price of attacks is degrees of magnitude more than the price of Senses.

 

Moreover, it is not well supported by source material, since there are many more examples of ranged paranormal senses that are not stopped by ordinary barriers, and need extraordinary shielding to be stopped, if ever. Venerable as it may be, Superman's X-Ray Vision is but one example in a very broad genre, with many contrary examples, and I deem wholly unfair to base a whole power type on the foibles of one single homage legacy.

How about Daredevil's "passive sonar"? He can "see" everything in the room he's in, including where the walls are, but he can't "see" through the walls.

 

See above. The flaw here is that canon Hero felt the unfortunate need to cater to the foibles of a legacy homage to Kryptonian superpowers, without providing for the price discount that would have balanced it. Ruining the elegance of a system in order to cater to homage for one legacy SFX is IMO contrary to the spirit of Hero of not reasoning from SFX. N-Ray should just get a slight discount for its one-material problem, and let Detects do their thing in peace. If you don't, indeed to buy N-Ray instead of a broad-scope Detect is rather dumb, but it's N-Ray that is written unbalanced, not the rest of Enhanced Senses. Asking 90% of SFX to pay more in order to leave the 10% unchanged is just bad system design.

It's the whole build of N-Ray that is wierd. For the "legacy homage," it should be as I described - an enhancement to otherwise normal vision, an Adder (or perhaps an Advantage). It's not just "Detecting Physical Objects" in the next room. It's *seeing* into the next room. What if there are no physical objects on the other side of the wall? Reading the way the power is built, N-Ray shouldn't be able to tell you that the next room is empty.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Quick confusion on Unusual Senses

 

Following this reasoning to its logical consequences' date=' Disadvantages and Limitations should not ever exist, since anything remotely and indirectly useful should be charged hard points, no matter how trivial and indirect. Let's ask people to pay points for their normal senses, 0-10 Characteristics, and ability to sire/bear children, instead of letting crippled characters rob the system by getting extra points. We cannot absolutely allow characters to get these precious abilities scot-free. [/quote']

 

I can't imagine how you extrapolate the above from "requiring a character with a special sense which can perceive through barriers to pay more points than a character with an equivalent sense that cannot perceive through barriers".

 

The character who LACKS normal senses gets disadvantage points for it. Default possession of normal senses does not, strictly speaking, mean they don't cost points. It means those points are spent by default and these abilities are sold back by the exceptional character who lacks them.

 

Or you can assume that such an ability is a fair part of the default package' date=' and if anything, those who didn't got it are entitled to a refund. It is fair both ways. But my way keeps the customer significantly happier. Hero already has a not-so-unfunded reputation for annoyingly asking players to pay points for the most trivial things. IMO, your approach would just worsen the stereotype. [/quote']

 

Making the ability to perceive through barriers a default which can be sold back would be the same basic result, but really we're now discussing pricing only. There's precious little difference betwen "pay 15 points for the sense, +10 to perceive through barriers" and "pay 25 points for the sense, -10 if it cannot perceive through barriers". But presently there is no such rebate for characters whose special senses are blocked by barriers.