[Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

[Comic]

Meet Rival (sans Disads), a Rogue tribute build.

 

So, what have I done wrong, here? Would you allow this build in your game?

[size=2][font=Courier New]|VAL CHAR Cost Roll Notes[/font]
[font=Courier New]| 13 Str    3  12-  Lift 100 kg; 2.5d6 [1][/font]
[font=Courier New]| 14 Dex   12  12-  OCV: 5 / DCV: 5[/font]
[font=Courier New]| 13 Con    6  12- [/font]
[font=Courier New]| 12 Body   4  11- [/font]
[font=Courier New]| 13 Int    3  12-  PER Roll: 12-[/font]
[font=Courier New]| 20 Ego   20  13-  ECV: 7[/font]
[font=Courier New]| 10 Pre    -  11-  PRE Attack: 2d6[/font]
[font=Courier New]| 10 Com    -  11- [/font]
[font=Courier New]|  3  PD    -       Total 3[/font]
[font=Courier New]|  3  ED    -       Total 3[/font]
[font=Courier New]|  3 SPD    6       Phases: 4, 8, 12[/font]
[font=Courier New]|  6 REC    - [/font]
[font=Courier New]| 26 END    - [/font]
[font=Courier New]| 26 STUN   - [/font]
[font=Courier New]|---[/font]
[font=Courier New]| 54 Total Characteristic Cost[/font]
[font=Courier New]|    Movement: Running: 6"/12"[/font]
[font=Courier New]|    Leaping: 1"/3"[/font]
[font=Courier New]|    Swimming: 2"/4"[/font]
[font=Courier New]| Powers[/font]
[font=Courier New]|240 VPP Psychometabolic Parasitism Pool 240 AP [-][/font]
[font=Courier New]| 17 VPP Pool Control – (-1/2: Can Only Change When Mind Controlling A Target with Powers, -1/2: Must Follow Grab, -1: Requires Skin-to-Skin Contact, -1/2: Requires Attack Roll, -1 Side Effect: Minor Transform to Take On Target's Disadvantages; -1/2: Only the Powers of Mind Controlled Targets, -1/2 Largest First, -1/2: Up to ½ Total Pool, -1/2: Up to Target's Powers; -1/2: Linked to Mind Control of Target) "Psychometabolic Parasitism" 120 AP [-][/font]
[font=Courier New]|  5 5 pts Mental Defense (Total 10 pts; +1/2: Hardened x2) "Psychic Backpressure" 7 AP [-][/font]
[font=Courier New]| 17 8d6 Mind Control Human Class of Minds (+3/4: Cumulative x4, +1/2: 0 END, +1/2: Persistent, +1/4: Telepathic; -1: Single Command "Lend me your Largest Remaining Ability", -1/2: Always On, -1/4: Cannot Be Used Through Mind Link, -1/4: Does Not Provide Mental Awareness, -3/4: Only Works On Powered Humanoids, -1/2: Mandatory Effect Ego +20; -1/2: Must Follow Grab, -1: Requires Skin-to-Skin Contact, -1/2: Requires Attack Roll, -1 Side Effect: Minor Transform to Take On Target's Disadvantages) "Psychic Parasitism" 120 AP [0][/font]
[font=Courier New]|---[/font]
[font=Courier New]|281 Total Powers Cost[/font]
[font=Courier New]|Skills[/font]
[font=Courier New]|  3 Breakfall 12-[/font]
[font=Courier New]|  2 KS: Judo 8-[/font]
[font=Courier New]| 10 Martial Art: Judo[/font]
[font=Courier New]|    Cost Maneuver OCV DCV Notes[/font]
[font=Courier New]|      4  Escape   +0  +0  +15 STR vs. Grabs[/font]
[font=Courier New]|      3  Grab     -1  -1  +10 STR Grab Two Limbs; [/font]
[font=Courier New]|      3  Takedown +1  +1  STR Strike; Target Falls[/font]
[font=Courier New]|---[/font]
[font=Courier New]| 15 Total Skills[/font]
[font=Courier New]|---[/font]
[font=Courier New]|350 Total Characteristics, Powers, Skills[/font]
[/size]

I acknowledge he's built with too few skills, etc.

[OddHat]

Re: [Character]Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

The VPP limits wouldn't pass in my campaign. "Only to copy the powers of mind controlled victim" is worth -1 on the control cost, and I'd allow a -1/2 side effect "Takes on the power related disads of target", again only on the control cost.

 

The Mind Control single command is oddly phrased. It should probably just be "Don't use your powers". The limits include a double dipping side effect, the "always on" is probably worth at most -1/4 as it only prevents the character from copying his friends powers (turning off the enemy's powers is what he wanted to do in the first place), can't be used through mind link is worth -0 when he has no mind link power, requires attack roll is worth -0 as it already did by default, only works on powered humanoids is worth -0 considering the build and the command.

 

Seeing this sheet, I'd ask the player if he wanted me to re-write it in a way that made sense in the campaign. If he refused, I'd ask for an alternate character, or invite him to leave. This many meaningless limits are a danger sign. Your game, your call, of course.

[JmOz]

Re: [Character]Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

The VPP limits wouldn't pass in my campaign. "Only to copy the powers of mind controlled victim" is worth -1 on the control cost, and I'd allow a -1/2 side effect "Takes on the power related disads of target", again only on the control cost.

 

The Mind Control single command is oddly phrased. It should probably just be "Don't use your powers". The limits include a double dipping side effect, the "always on" is probably worth at most -1/4 as it only prevents the character from copying his friends powers (turning off the enemy's powers is what he wanted to do in the first place), can't be used through mind link is worth -0 when he has no mind link power, requires attack roll is worth -0 as it already did by default, only works on powered humanoids is worth -0 considering the build and the command.

 

Seeing this sheet, I'd ask the player if he wanted me to re-write it in a way that made sense in the campaign. If he refused, I'd ask for an alternate character, or invite him to leave. This many meaningless limits are a danger sign. Your game, your call, of course.

 

I can see giving a little more limitations on the above, but agree that he has the limitations to high. Requires attack roll for instance with a rename I could see as most people have significantly higher DCV than EDCV, but-1/4 not what ever he has. I would actualy say a total of -1 for all of the limits combined is abuot right, maybe even -1 1/2 depending.

 

I do like the Mind control to work as the drain, but personaly I would have used Drain or transfer (Transfer into a very small VPP can nicely do what you are trying, max the dice of the Transfer for any campeign limits then beg the GM)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [Character]Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

The problem with Rogue is that she's an all or nothing character. If her powers work, the enemy is beaten. If not, she's hooped. That works in fiction, since the writer can control when her power is and is not effective. It doesn't work so well in a game, when the player will be frustrated when the ability doesn't work. That would be the first reason I would likely bounce such a character.

 

Note that Marvel gave Rogue other powers (first the Ms. Marvel suite, now the Sunfire suite) so the character is not wholly reliant on her Transfer abilities.

 

To the actual character, I would note the following:

 

- As others have noted, the limitation values seem excessive. I would start with the Mimic Pool example (p 325 5er), which provides of -1/2 requiring a HTH roll (I'd boost this to -1 for requiring a grab and skin to skin contact); -1 for mimicing the target's powers, and only uo to the target's power levels, and a further -1/2 for taking on the target's disadvantages. I'd add another -1/2 if it can be used only when the target has been Mind Controlled. That's 120/3.5 = 34 points.

 

- the Mind Control limitations are also excessive. I'd say:

-1: Single Command "Don't use your powers";

- 0: Always On is meaningless since you prevent its operating by not Grabbing,

-0: Cannot Be Used Through Mind Link - not common enough to merit a limitation

-1/4: Does Not Provide Mental Awareness is by the book (though I would not allow it in my game as I remove the default grabting of MA, and becuase it is stupid to save that kind of points for sacrificing a 3 or 5 oint power)

-0: Only Works On Powered Humanoids - you can use it on anyone; the limited commant restricts its utility to powered persons

-0: Mandatory Effect Ego +20 is the effect of "don't use your powers"

-1 combined Must Follow Grab and Requires Skin-to-Skin Contact

-0: Requires Attack Roll - Mind Control already requires an attack roll

-0 Side Effect: Minor Transform to Take On Target's Disadvantages - unless you get the Disad's even if the MC fails and you take on no powers

 

- the VPP may be a nonissue. The character is extremely fragile before taking on someone else's powers, and practically will need about a turn to gain the level of control required to take on someone's powers. In order to Mind Control, he must furst Grab (1 phase), hold on to the next phase, then make the first MC while the target is Grabbed. With an average of 28 per roll, it will take 2 phases minimum to obtain control. That's a turn in which you must maintain the grab. Good luck doing so with an effective 23 STR, and that's before considering your CV to Grab. Meanwhile, someone might attack your 4 DCV (less if you have achieved the Grab) 3 DEF body.

 

- Consider investing in the USPD - it sets out a means of simulating Rogue's ability which is likely more practical. Given that book is copywritten, I wouldn't think it appropriate to post the data on the web site.

[gmurie]

Re: [Character]Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

With such a meek starting power set (essentially a 110 pointer) low level VIPER agents are going to kick her around the block long before she gets that power into gear. Even with the redonkulous mass of disads on the VPP control.

 

My advice stands as before. Your player may be a nice guy, but has unrealistic expectations of what HERO will allow. Or the Marvel game system for that matter. There's a BIG separation in what's possible in a comic book and what's possible in a game.

 

Ask the player if there's any other characters from comics or even scifi or fantasy novels that he also likes. A weapon master type with paired scimitars called Dervish instead maybe?

[Comic]

Re: [Character]Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

Thanks. I knew there was double-dipping going on with the build, and the limitations were way overboard, but couldn't pin them down. Sometimes it takes another set of eyes.

 

And thanks for pointing out the USPD as a resource.

 

Rival is meant to bootstrap himself up from lower to higher.

 

I'd originally started with an evolutionary concept -- one I'd like to get back to -- of a character who begins by 'copying' simpler things: inanimate objects like air, stone, water, to gain their durability, camouflage and mobility, then fire (once he was durable enough to come into prolonged contact with it), then on to living things (pets at first) for their dexterity and speed, and then wild creatures for their greater range of abilities, before finally taking on superhumans.

 

I've taken several runs at the concept, but always get bogged down in the mechanics.

[Comic]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

Rival II

 

Somewhat amended, to reflect the helpful comments, which removed some of the mental blocks. Now I'm at the power level I want for the character, and able to work in his 'evolutionary' bootstrapping, but it's still extremely rough.

 

Further advice?

[size=2][font=Courier New]|VAL CHAR Cost Roll Notes[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 30 Str   20  15-  Lift 1.6 t; 6d6 [3][/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 17 Dex   21  12-  OCV: 6 / DCV: 6[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 19 Con   18  13- [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 12 Body   4  11- [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 13 Int    3  12-  PER Roll: 12-[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 20 Ego   20  13-  ECV: 7[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 13 Pre    -  12-  PRE Attack: 2.5d6[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 10 Com    -  11- [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|  6  PD    -       Total 30 (24)[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|  4  ED    -       Total 28 (24)[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|  4 SPD   13       Phases: 4, 6, 9, 12[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 10 REC    - [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 38 END    - [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 37 STUN   - [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|---[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|102 Total Characteristic Cost[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|    Movement: Running: 6"/12"[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|    Leaping: 3"/6"[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|    Swimming: 2"/4"[/font][/size]

[size=2][font=Courier New]| Powers[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|240 VPP Psychometabolic Parasitism Pool 240 AP [-][/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| [size=2]40 VPP Pool Control – (-1: Must Hold Direct Contact with Target – Skin-Skin or Target's Mental Powers, -1/2: Mimics Target's Powers, -1/2: Side Effect: Minor Transform to Take On Target's Disadvantages) "Psychometabolic Parasitism" 120 AP [-][/size][/font]
[/size][size=2][font=Courier New]|  5 5 pts Mental Defense (Total 10 pts; +1/2: Hardened x2) "Psychic Backpressure" 7 AP [-][/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| [size=2]30 6d6 Mind Control Human Class of Minds (+3/4: Cumulative x4 – Max 144, +1 Damage Shield Affects Mental And Physical, +1/2: 0 END, +1/2: Persistent, +1/4: Telepathic; -1: Single Command "Don't Use Your Powers", -1/2: Always On; -1: Requires Direct Contact – Skin-to-Skin or Target's Mental Powers, -1/2: Side Effect - Minor Transform to Take On Target's Psychological Disadvantages Succeed or Fail Until Overcome By Ego Roll) "Psychic Parasitism" 120 AP [0][/size][/font]
[/size][size=2][size=2][font=Courier New]| 30 EC Psychometabolicly Learned Powers 30 AP [-][/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 20 A) Desolidification (+1/2: 0 END; -1/2 Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects) "Air Form" 60 AP [0][/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 14  Invisibility to Sight, Radar, IR & UV (+1/2: 0 END, +1/2: Persistent; -1/4: Bright Fringe, -1/2: Chameleon, -1/2: Only When Not Attacking) "Psychometabolic Mimicry" 62 AP [0][/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 30 C) 24 rPD / 24 rED Force Field (+1/4: Cost Endurance Only To Activate) "Molecular Durability") 60 AP [5][/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 20 D) 10" Flight (+2: +1 Variable Advantage; -1/2: Restrainable) "Psychometabolicly Mimicked Wings" 60 AP [4][/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 50 Total Life Support – Self Contained Breathing, Diminished Eating, Diminished Sleep, All Safe Environments and Immunities, Immortality "Diamond Mimicry" 50 AP[/font][/size]
[/size][size=2][font=Courier New]|---[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|481 Total Powers Cost[/font][/size]

[font=Courier New][size=2]|Skills[/size][/font]
[font=Courier New][size=2]|  2 Animal Handler 12- (Small Pets: Birds, Cats, Dogs)[/size][/font]
[font=Courier New][size=2]|  3 Breakfall 12-[/size][/font]
[font=Courier New][size=2]|  2 KS: Judo 8-[/size][/font]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 10 Martial Art: Judo[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|    Cost Maneuver OCV DCV Notes[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|      4  Escape   +0  +0  +15 STR vs. Grabs[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|      3  Grab     -1  -1  +10 STR Grab Two Limbs; [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|      3  Takedown +1  +1  STR Strike; Target Falls[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|---[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 17 Total Skills[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|---[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|600 Total Characteristics, Powers, Skills[/font][/size]

 

He's still extremely skills-lacking, but he's not so much a Rogue-tribute as a Rogue-homage, and stands separate as his own character.

 

I plan for his pool to reset not with each combat but with each story arc. He starts considerably sub-par, bootstrapping his way up through each campaign arc in much the way most arcs build, from small-fry to big villain, he can fill in his obvious gaps with agent abilities, then climb the ladder one combat at a time until he's ready to go toe-to-toe with the BBEG's.

 

What do people think?

[braincraft]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

Mind Control only really works if the target's powers are controlled by the mind, if you read me. An air elemental won't stop being an air elemental after you drain its powers just because it suddenly wants to stop being a sentient vortex of wind, and Giganto, the Crushinator won't necessarily stop being gigantic and crushing things because you made him stop wanting to be big.

 

Swap it out for a drain or something.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

Rival II

 

Somewhat amended, to reflect the helpful comments, which removed some of the mental blocks. Now I'm at the power level I want for the character, and able to work in his 'evolutionary' bootstrapping, but it's still extremely rough.

 

Further advice?

**********************************************************

I plan for his pool to reset not with each combat but with each story arc. He starts considerably sub-par, bootstrapping his way up through each campaign arc in much the way most arcs build, from small-fry to big villain, he can fill in his obvious gaps with agent abilities, then climb the ladder one combat at a time until he's ready to go toe-to-toe with the BBEG's.

 

What do people think?

 

He sounds like a video game. Your assumption of evolutionary increases assumes every arc will begin with low power opposition and work its way up. That's not always going to be the case (or at least it would not be in my games).

 

30 6d6 Mind Control Human Class of Minds (+3/4: Cumulative x4 – Max 144' date=' +1 Damage Shield Affects Mental And Physical, +1/2: 0 END, +1/2: Persistent, +1/4: Telepathic; -1: Single Command "Don't Use Your Powers", -1/2: Always On; -1: Requires Direct Contact – Skin-to-Skin or Target's Mental Powers, -1/2: Side Effect - Minor Transform to Take On Target's Psychological Disadvantages Succeed or Fail Until Overcome By Ego Roll) [/quote']

 

This means he needs to maintain skin to skin contact for at least 2 or 3 phases. He also picks up disadvantages on starting the process, even if the Mind Control fails. What happens if (WHEN!) he picks up conflicting limitations. Also, since you plan on mimicing animals, what happens when he picks up a dog's "pack mentality" or a shark's "eat whether you're hungry or not" and "everything is edible"?

 

I would either disallow Always On (you don't have to maintain skin to skin contact with anyone) or ensure prolonged (long enough for that Mind Cntrol to function) skin to skin contact with your teammates happens often enough to justify a -1/2 limitation. Hope you like their psych limitations!

 

"Psychic Parasitism" 120 AP [0][/size][/font]

[/size]| 30 EC Psychometabolicly Learned Powers 30 AP [-]

| 20 A) Desolidification (+1/2: 0 END; -1/2 Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects) "Air Form" 60 AP [0]

| 14 Invisibility to Sight, Radar, IR & UV (+1/2: 0 END, +1/2: Persistent; -1/4: Bright Fringe, -1/2: Chameleon, -1/2: Only When Not Attacking) "Psychometabolic Mimicry" 62 AP [0]

| 30 C) 24 rPD / 24 rED Force Field (+1/4: Cost Endurance Only To Activate) "Molecular Durability") 60 AP [5]

| 20 D) 10" Flight (+2: +1 Variable Advantage; -1/2: Restrainable) "Psychometabolicly Mimicked Wings" 60 AP [4]

| 50 Total Life Support – Self Contained Breathing, Diminished Eating, Diminished Sleep, All Safe Environments and Immunities, Immortality "Diamond Mimicry" 50 AP

|---

|481 Total Powers Cost

 

The EC is way out. First off, Life Support does not cost END, so it's an illegal EC power from the outset. Second, I would probably not consider this a tight group of special effects. Every power is a separate special effect (air, diamond, durability, etc.).

 

Mind Control only really works if the target's powers are controlled by the mind, if you read me. An air elemental won't stop being an air elemental after you drain its powers just because it suddenly wants to stop being a sentient vortex of wind, and Giganto, the Crushinator won't necessarily stop being gigantic and crushing things because you made him stop wanting to be big.

 

Swap it out for a drain or something.

 

A very good point. What happens if the power in question cannot be shut off - ie Always On? Maybe the better answer is to ditch this aspect entirely. It sounds like the character will maintain the powers long after the Mind Control is shut down, so the Rogue effect that only one of the characters keeps the powers seems to be removed anyway.

[gmurie]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

Here's how I'd do it at 350 points (if backed against a wall)

 

Drain STUN 3d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (112 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Limited Power Requires Skin to Skin Contact (-1/2) Costs 56 points

 

Detect Superhuman powers, abilities, and limitations 11- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Sense COST: 12 points. So she doesn't get a "detect superpowers" for free.

 

A bunch of conditional characteristic increases as I've mentioned.

 

Create a VPP that is cosmic and as large as the game's active points limit, with an additional disad worth nothing that no combination of powers can bring a characteristic above campaign limits. (copied PD + FF max at 35 ferex) The pool can be swapped around at will to create exact replicas of people she's KOed in melee. Assuming 90 Active I could shoehorn it in at 150 points total

 

Leaves enough points for a weak kneed martial artist or brick, and yeah, jack it up to 600 points and it'll work just fine.

[Comic]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

I have to agree with Hugh's latest. Any character that only works if they story goes a particular way isn't going to work.

 

And the EC .. isn't an EC.

 

And.. overall, Rival II only makes me happier than Rival I in that it isn't Rival I. So, back to the drawing board.

 

My intention is to go right to the roots that I found inspiring about the Rogue concept: a Psyche Stealer.

 

We'll see where that gets me.

[casualplayer]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

One of the ways I've kept the cost down on power-thieves is by applying Variable Limitation, usually set as Requires Skill Roll on just about everything stolen (as they slowly learn to use their new abilities,) Increased END Cost or Side Effects (harming themselves, shredding the environment, misfires, etc.)

 

Rogue is a tough one to duplicate because she was created to be a team-beater adversary and she's kind of a psychotic Mary Sue.

 

She has Sunfire's powers now? WTF?

[OddHat]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

A Mimic-Rogue is actually fairly easy to build; just drop the idea of stealing powers, and settle for copying them. A Multiform VPP with appropriate limits on the control cost will do it in one step, or (for less complete transformations) a vanilla Mimic Pool from the USPD.

[GoldenAge]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

This is a Rogue homage that I recently threw together (and I mean threw) with the help of a few HERO forum members. Thoughts? (need to keep the cost around 310-320)

 

Dax Crimson

 

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

30 STR 20 15- Lift 1600.0kg; 6d6 [3]

18 DEX 24 13- OCV: 6/DCV: 6

10 CON 0 11-

10 BODY 0 11-

10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-

10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3

10 PRE 0 11- PRE Attack: 2d6

10 COM 0 11-

 

20 PD 14 Total: 20 PD (10 rPD)

20 ED 18 Total: 20 ED (10 rED)

4 SPD 12 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12

12 REC 0

60 END 0

60 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 88

 

Movement:

Running: 6"/12"

Leaping: 6"/12"

Swimming: 2"/4"

 

POWER SWITCH:

 

Power Mimicry

Variable Power Pool (Mimic Pool), 100 base + 50 control cost

Advantages: Powers Can Be Changed As A Zero Phase Action (+1), No Skill Roll Required (+1), Reduced END = 0 (+½), Persistent (+½):

Active Cost = 300 Points

Limitations: Always On (-½), Only For Multiform (Multiform is “alternate” form with all of character’s powers and exact copies of target’s powers and power-related Disadvantages (-½), VPP Mimics Target’s Innate Powers (-½), Powers May Only Be As Powerful As Target’s Powers (-½), No Conscious Control (Character can activate the VPP but has no control over the powers he gets) (-1), Cannot Retain Copied Forms (when character switches to another “form,” he immediately loses all previously-copied powers (-¼), Requires Successful HTH Attack Roll (-½), Skin Contact Required (-1), Linked (to Transform) (-¼).

Real Cost: 100 + 33 = 133 Points

 

Plus...

 

Power Theft

Major Transform 2d6 (person into person with no exceptional abilities) (60 Active Points); 0 END (+½), Persistent (+½), Skin Contact Required (-1), Limited Target (living beings; -¼), Always On (-½).

Real Cost = 22 points

 

Innate Powers

10 Tough: Damage Resistance (10 PD/10 ED)

25 Flight – 10”; Position Shift

25 Telekenisis; 10 STR (Fine Manipulation – Roll = 12-)

 

 

Skills (to be determined by player)

3 - ? 2 - KS: ? 2 KS: ?

3 - ? 2 - KS: ?

3 - ? 2 - PS: ?

 

Total Character Cost: 315

[Comic]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

Sorry, my mind wandered.

 

Rogues built to not rely on that 'all or nothing' attack are much easier to build. Transformation, being an 'all or nothing' cumulative attack that takes several phases, is probably the best for a representation of the Rogue character -- if it's built on enough points.

 

And the 310-320 point build seems sound to me, depending on GM's preferences.

 

As others have pointed out, there might be some contention about limitations. Certainly the 'variable' Multiform is something I'm trying to avoid in my builds, but it does well-model the effect.

 

So.. Here's where I'm at with Rival, at 600 pts. He's based on a Mental Entangle, which is faster than Transform, so won't slow combat so much.

 

This is a Rival who understands that he is a psyche thief because he can touch and manipulate psyche -- including his own. The EC models this control of his own psyche -- and others'. The VPP models the powers stolen by the process of separating those aspects of a psyche that correspond to powers, which also imprisons the separated psyche.

 

Because I don't want to complicate the GM's life, while the VPP produces mimicked effects (under GM's discretion where special powers are concerned), it doesn't telepathically read secret knowledge, remove actual powers from targets, or require complex transformation recovery rules: break out of the mental paralysis, and the effect ends.

 

Rival III

[size=2][font=Courier New]|VAL CHAR Cost Roll Notes[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 45 Str   35  18-  Lift 13 t; 9d6 [4][/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 17 Dex   21  12-  OCV: 6 / DCV: 6[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 25 Con   30  14- [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 12 Body   4  11- [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 13 Int    3  12-  PER Roll: 12-[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 20 Ego   20  13-  ECV: 7[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 13 Pre    -  12-  PRE Attack: 2.5d6[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 10 Com    -  11- [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|  9  PD    -       Total 43 (34)[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|  5  ED    -       Total 39 (34)[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|  4 SPD   13       Phases: 4, 6, 9, 12[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 14 REC    - [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 50 END    - [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 48 STUN   - [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|---[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|129 Total Characteristic Cost[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|    Movement: Running: 6"/12"[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|    Leaping: 4"/9"[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|    Swimming: 2"/4"[/font][/size]

[size=2][font=Courier New]| Powers[/font][/size]
180 VPP Psyche Theft Pool 180 AP [-]
26 VPP Pool Control – (-1: Must Hold Direct Contact with Target – Skin-Skin or Mental 'Grab', -1/2: Mimics Target's Powers, -1/2: Only While Target Psyche Imprisoned, -1/2: Side Effect: Minor Transform Always Takes On Target Psyche's Disadvantages) “Psychometabolic Parasitism” 90 AP [-]
30 10 rPD / 10 rED Armor “Latent Absorbed Durability” 30 AP[-]
 5 5 pts Mental Defense (Total 10 pts; +1/2: Hardened x2) “Psychic Reverse Pressure” 7 AP
21 Life Support – Self Contained Breathing, Diminished Eating, Diminished Sleep, Immortality vs. Age “Psychic Nature” 21 AP
19 Life Support – All Safe Environments and Immunities (-1/2: Side Effect, Minor Transformation -- Becomes a Carrier) “Psyche Matching” 29 AP
30 EC Psyche Powers 30 AP [-]
20 A) Desolidification (+1/2: 0 END; -1/2 Extra Segment) “Psyche Form” 60 AP [0]
30  3d6 Entangle (+1: BOECV, +1/4: Takes No Damage from Physical Attacks, +1/4: Works Against Ego-Not-STR, +1 Damage Shield Affects Mental And Physical, +1/2: 0 END, +1/2: Persistent , +1/2: IPE; -1/2: Always On; -1: Requires Direct Contact – Skin-to-Skin or Target's Mental Powers, -1/2: Side Effect - Minor Transform to Take On Target's Psychological Disadvantages Succeed or Fail Until Overcome By Ego Roll) “Psyche Imprisonment” 120 AP [0]
14 C) Invisibility to Sight, Radar, IR & UV (+1/2: 0 END, +1/2: Persistent; -1/4: Bright Fringe, -1/2: Chameleon, -1/2: Only When Not Attacking) “Psyche Mimicry” 62 AP [0]
30 D) 24 rPD / 24 rED Force Field (+1/4: Cost Endurance Only To Activate) “Psychic Nature”) 60 AP [5]
20 E) 10” Flight (+2: +1 Variable Advantage; -1/2: Restrainable) “Psyche Travel” 60 AP [6]
---
427 Total Powers Cost

[font=Courier New][size=2]|Skills[/size][/font]
[font=Courier New][size=2]|  2 Animal Handler 12- (Small Pets: Birds, Cats, Dogs)[/size][/font]
[font=Courier New][size=2]|  3 Breakfall 12-[/size][/font]
[font=Courier New][size=2]| 12 +4 CSL: Judo[/size][/font]
[font=Courier New][size=2]|  3 Concealment 12-[/size][/font]
[font=Courier New][size=2]|  3 Disguise 12-[/size][/font]
[font=Courier New][size=2]|  2 KS: Judo 11-[/size][/font]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 10 Martial Art: Judo[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|    Cost Maneuver OCV DCV Notes[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|      4  Escape   +0  +0  +15 STR vs. Grabs[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|      3  Grab     -1  -1  +10 STR Grab Two Limbs; [/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|      3  Takedown +1  +1  STR Strike; Target Falls[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=courier new]|  - PS: Animal Care Worker 11-[EM][/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|  3 Shadowing 12-[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|  3 Stealth 13-[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|  3 Streetwise 12-[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|---[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]| 44 Total Skills[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|---[/font][/size]
[size=2][font=Courier New]|600 Total Characteristics, Powers, Skills[/font][/size]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

One issue not previously addressed - does Psyche Theft steal skills? Should it?

 

I still have difficulty with the various EC powers. Someone else might not be as tight with that EC "common SFX".

 

The limitations remain an issue, but that's another "to taste" issue as you note. There's a double dip issue with the VPP and mental entangle. "Direct Contact" seems OK for both, assuming you must maintain that contact to change powers. Taking on disad's seems like it's done at both levels, although some differentiation between psych's (at Entangle) and others. Presumably, you can't take on all disad's (secret ID, Hunted, disad's related to third parties), so how much does that second step actually limit?

[Comic]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

One issue not previously addressed - does Psyche Theft steal skills? Should it?

 

I still have difficulty with the various EC powers. Someone else might not be as tight with that EC "common SFX".

 

The limitations remain an issue, but that's another "to taste" issue as you note. There's a double dip issue with the VPP and mental entangle. "Direct Contact" seems OK for both, assuming you must maintain that contact to change powers. Taking on disad's seems like it's done at both levels, although some differentiation between psych's (at Entangle) and others. Presumably, you can't take on all disad's (secret ID, Hunted, disad's related to third parties), so how much does that second step actually limit?

Does it steal skills? I'd leave that to the GM on a case-by-case basis. The intention is to have psyche theft, so by virtue of special effects, some skills that are part of the unique personal nature of the target should be viable for use with the VPP. At the same time, powers that for some reason aren't integral to the target's psyche (suppose the target were themself a mimic) would be immune.

 

I'm always reluctant to propose my own EC's. EC's are for the GM to deem and award, so.. I can at best set out my intentions, and hope. Rival's meant to be a psychic entity, and as such can take on spirit form and aspects thereof.

 

As a note, a forcefield isn't skin-to-skin contact, so there is a sort of lockout on the mental paralysis while it's in use. Didn't put points on it, since.. too double dippy on an already stretched premise.

 

The limitations and their levels do look like they'd need fine-tuning, and the GM's interpretation, since there's so many of them, and they're 'simulationist' so there's a bit of translation folly going on. It might be better to simplify them somehow. I really do like the Dax Crimson build for this more than Rival's build.

 

And the disadvantages taken on by the side effect would of course only be those that fit within the special effect of psyche. Some hunteds of a mystic nature might be affected on this basis, but yes, it's intended to be mainly for distinctive features, berserks, psych lims, vulnerabilities and susceptibilities.. which ought to be enough, I think? For the net points of the limitation on the powers its applied to, it's certainly going to make Rival pay for it many times over.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

I'm always reluctant to propose my own EC's. EC's are for the GM to deem and award' date=' so.. I can at best set out my intentions, and hope. Rival's meant to be a psychic entity, and as such can take on spirit form and aspects thereof.[/quote']

 

Given that these are basically "the powers the player has chosen that the character has previously copied", I would be reluctant to consider them as having a single common SFX for an EC. The player can define any power, with any SFX, as being "one the character copied in the past and can now access repeatedly".

[Comic]

Re: [Character] Rival.. What am I doing Wrong?

 

Given that these are basically "the powers the player has chosen that the character has previously copied"' date=' I would be reluctant to consider them as having a single common SFX for an EC. The player can define any power, with any SFX, as being "one the character copied in the past and can now access repeatedly".[/quote']

Alas, that does get us to one of the weaknesses with EC. Or with me.

 

While the current build is meant to be based entirely on psyche (psychic/spirit) effects, the previous build (on its face way too broad -- copied powers) had almost exactly the same powers and with most of the same advantages and limitations. Where do game mechanics end and character concepts begin? There's no reason to keep the force field in the EC, and even at half strength or as 30 pts of armor, still produces a powerful character.