Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

[gmurie]

Why? Because I do have a hard time getting players into the game, and I figured the easiest way is to snag M&M players by showing them conversions of the M&M Archetypes as Hero characters. The attached ZIP has all of the archetypes from the Pocket Handbook (and have you noticed the number of typos! Yeeech!) except the Weapon Master.

 

I haven't worked out an easy and graceful way to work up the Weapon Master yet. The Energy Controller Arch is plenty ugly as it is.

 

Yes, I'm aware that they don't have any disads, because the M&M system doesn't do disads as such. I'll work up a set of generic 150 point disadvantage kits.

 

I'd appreciate more suggestions of MPP and EC slots for the Energy Controller archetype.

 

The Background/History of each of these files explains how and why I implemented the conversion as I did. More than accuracy (impossible anyway) I was going for simplicity.

[Sweeper]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Yes' date=' I'm aware that they don't have any disads, because the M&M system doesn't do disads as such. I'll work up a set of generic 150 point disadvantage kits.[/quote']

 

Well, the only thing that comes close are power limiters. I have yet to see anything recognizable as a disadvantage as we know them in any D20/OGL variant. Of course, I'm not really looking.

 

and Yes, I am aware of the potential irony of the statement.

[gmurie]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Well, the only thing that comes close are power limiters. I have yet to see anything recognizable as a disadvantage as we know them in any D20/OGL variant. Of course, I'm not really looking.

 

and Yes, I am aware of the potential irony of the statement.

 

Well the Battlesuit Arch has both a discount for Device (Focus) and a "Drawback" called Normal Identity (OIHID) for its powers. That's not allowed in Hero, so he only gets scads of OIFs the poor baby.

 

The Mystic gets a whopping -2 points of 150 points for having all of its powers require gestures and incantations, which worked out to quite a large discount in Hero. Speaking of, I have forgotten to create the astral duplicate for the Mystic. Nnnngggh. Just not fond of Mystic types. I've only just now changed it again to eliminate the astral powers MPP.

[name_tamer]

If possible, could you also please post text or .html files (zipped, if you prefer)? I don't have Hero Designer but am very interested in M&M/Hero conversions.

[gmurie]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

If possible' date=' could you also please post text or .html files (zipped, if you prefer)? I don't have Hero Designer but am very interested in M&M/Hero conversions.[/quote']

 

Soonish, sure. But some of the archetypes are LOT easier to use with Hero Designer. It really is the best $25 you'll ever spend.

[MitchellS]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Well, the only thing that comes close are power limiters. I have yet to see anything recognizable as a disadvantage as we know them in any D20/OGL variant. Of course, I'm not really looking.

 

and Yes, I am aware of the potential irony of the statement.

Most of what you'd call roleplaying disadvantages are called complications in M&M. This covers hunted, psych lims, dnpcs, etc. Complications earn you the hero points used during play. M&M also has a drawback system for the disads which have a game mechanics use such as vulnerabilities, susceptibilities, accidental change, etc. Those two things make up what a Hero player would call disads.

[MitchellS]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Soonish' date=' sure. But some of the archetypes are LOT easier to use with Hero Designer. It really is the best $25 you'll ever spend.[/quote']

I'll echo name-tamer's question as well since I also don't have or use HD3. I'm curious to see what you've come up with, as I have my own versions [though for the opposite reason ].

[Fedifensor]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

At first glance, the characters look a bit tough for standard 350-point supers, though it may just be personal taste.

 

For those without HD3, here's one of the characters:

 

M&M Arch - Paragon -

 

VAL...CHA...Cost...Total...Roll......Notes

60....STR.....50...60......21-.......HTH Damage 12d6 END [6]

23....DEX.....39...23......14-.......OCV 8 DCV 8

30....CON.....40...30......15-

15....BODY....10...15......12-

10....INT.....0...10......11-.......PER Roll 11-

10....EGO.....0...10......11-.......ECV: 3

20....PRE.....10...20......13-.......PRE Attack: 4d6

12....COM.....1...12......11-

29....PD......17...29.............29 PD (20 rPD)

30....ED......24...30.............30 ED (20 rED)

6....SPD.....27...6.................Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12

18....REC.....0...18

60....END.....0...60

60....STUN....0...60

6....RUN......0...6"................END [1]

2....SWIM.....0...2"................END [1]

12....LEAP.....0...12"................12" forward, 6" upward

 

CHA Cost: 218

 

Cost...POWERS

20.....Damage Resistance (20 PD/20 ED) - END=0

37.....Flight 15", Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (37 Active Points) - END=1

15.....Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of STR (15 Active Points) - END=0

40.....LS (Immunity All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents; Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents; Safe Environment: Zero Gravity; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Self-Contained Breathing) - END=0

10.....Power Defense (10 points) - END=0

 

POWERS Cost: 122

 

 

Cost...SKILLS

10......+2 with HTH Combat

......Champions Everyman Skills

0......1) Acting 8-

0......2) Climbing 8-

0......3) Concealment 8-

0......4) Conversation 8-

0......5) Deduction 8-

0......6) AK: Home Country or Region (Everyman Skill) 11-

0......7) KS: Player's Choice 8-

0......8) Language: Native Language (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)

0......9) Paramedics 8-

0......10) Persuasion 8-

0......11) PS: Character's Job, Hobbie or area of Interest (Everyman Skill) 11-

0......12) Shadowing 8-

0......13) Stealth 8-

0......14) TF: Common Motorized Ground Vehicles, Everyman Skill

 

SKILLS Cost: 10

 

 

 

Base Pts: 200

Exp Required: 150

Total Exp Available: 0

Exp Unspent: 0

Total Character Cost: 350

 

 

 

[MitchellS]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

At first glance' date=' the characters look a bit tough for standard 350-point supers, though it may just be personal taste.[/quote']

Based on the paragon example I'd say that gmurie is creating archetypes of the same name but there's not a lot of similarity with what you're seeing in the M&M character [it's not a conversion]. There's nothing in the Hero build to account for many of the M&M character's skills or various powers.

 

Having played the two games I also can't justify the idea that PL 10 equates to 350 point characters. I'd say that PL 10 is much closer to 500 point characters then 350 pointers just on how the characters relate to their world.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Based on the paragon example I'd say that gmurie is creating archetypes of the same name but there's not a lot of similarity with what you're seeing in the M&M character [it's not a conversion]. There's nothing in the Hero build to account for many of the M&M character's skills or various powers.

 

Having played the two games I also can't justify the idea that PL 10 equates to 350 point characters. I'd say that PL 10 is much closer to 500 point characters then 350 pointers just on how the characters relate to their world.

 

If you were referring to a specific character in a campaign world, that might be true. But you should be able to carry over the general feel of the archetype on 350 points. You may not have the exact powers, but it will have the same feel (superstrong, supertough, can fly, etc). Which, if you want to introduce an M&M player to HERO, is precisely the point.

 

For the one I posted (Paragon), I'd drop the Speed to 5, drop the defenses to 28/28, trim a few other points from characteristics, and remove the poison/disease immunity (perhaps replacing with some points in Power Defense). That should give enough points to flesh out the character with a decent amount of skills, and maybe buy an added power to flesh things out (megascale flight so he can fly into space is one option).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Isn't Paragon the M&M homage/equivalent to Superman? This conversion seems a bit wimpy to be holding down that slot (unless he's based strictly on the 1939 Superman; which his Flight seems to preclude).

[Fedifensor]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Isn't Paragon the M&M homage/equivalent to Superman? This conversion seems a bit wimpy to be holding down that slot (unless he's based strictly on the 1939 Superman; which his Flight seems to preclude).

 

From what I've seen, it's the classic flying, strong, tough brick character - I don't think the PL 10 version is supposed to be anywhere equivalent to Superman. There are lots of this archetype in comics, though Superman is obviously the most well-known.

 

Here's a link to the archetypes:

http://64.17.155.164/files/heroarchetypes.pdf

 

Edit: The Paragon is apparently called the Original now...

[MitchellS]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

If you were referring to a specific character in a campaign world' date=' that might be true. But you should be able to carry over the general feel of the archetype on 350 points. You may not have the [i']exact [/i]powers, but it will have the same feel (superstrong, supertough, can fly, etc). Which, if you want to introduce an M&M player to HERO, is precisely the point.

If all you are wanting are base archetypes then Champions already provides them [as well as a random character generator]. If you're trying to bring M&M players to Champs then the archetypes should, at least, be similar in design rather just in spirit, IMO. Otherwise the M&M player's going to ask why his M&M character can fly 500 mph as a full move while his Champs character's flying 60 mph, why the Champs character doesn't have harden defenses, why the Champs character can't do things 10x quicker then a normal person, etc. Themes are fine. I was just under the impression that the files were more about converting M&M to Hero then just converting themes.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

If all you are wanting are base archetypes then Champions already provides them [as well as a random character generator]. If you're trying to bring M&M players to Champs then the archetypes should' date=' at least, be similar in design rather just in spirit, IMO. Otherwise the M&M player's going to ask why his M&M character can fly 500 mph as a full move while his Champs character's flying 60 mph,[/quote']

 

For a first time player, I think the fact that the person "flies fast" is good enough. Besides, it's really cheap to put normal flight and megascale flight into a mulltipower, which will make the Paragon faster than the M&M version.

 

 

why the Champs character doesn't have harden defenses,

Again, that's a rather subtle distinction for most players. 30/30 Defenses will bounce all normal bullets, and even AP bullets aren't gong to do BODY through halved defenses. Yes, it may cause a fair amount of STUN (depending on the power of the attack and how the GM handles the STUN multiplier), but that's a difference between how the two systems handle lethal and nonlethal damage.

 

 

why the Champs character can't do things 10x quicker then a normal person, etc.

The posted character can actually do things 10x quicker than a normal person. Compare a SPD 2 character with a 3 CV and 6" of running versus a SPD 6 character with a 10 OCV (easily handling the multiple move-by penalties) and 15" of Flight. The Paragon moves almost 10" as fast, and can take out 10 thugs in the time that a SPD 2 character can take out 1. It's just a matter of explaining the relevant HERO maneuver to the player.

 

 

Themes are fine. I was just under the impression that the files were more about converting M&M to Hero then just converting themes.

When a new player comes to me, they're more concerned about emulating acharacter from the comics than a character from another game system - which is what the M&M archetypes also attempt to do. That said, I think the templates provided in this thread could use some more work - it's not how I would have designed them. For the same point total, I can create a flying brick with supersonic flight, enough LS to survive in space, durable enough to bounce bullets, a few super-senses like X-Ray vision, and still have more points for skills than are reflected in the M&M version (Listen, Search, and Spot are levels of Enhanced Perception or a higher than normal Int, which leaves a single Profession that can be covered with two or three 3-pt skills). That's a Superman-esque character...just like the Paragon.

[MitchellS]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Again' date=' that's a rather subtle distinction for most players. 30/30 Defenses will bounce all normal bullets, and even AP bullets aren't gong to do BODY through halved defenses. Yes, it may cause a fair amount of STUN (depending on the power of the attack and how the GM handles the STUN multiplier), but that's a difference between how the two systems handle lethal and nonlethal damage.[/quote']

Lethal and non-lethal have no bearing on what I was talking about. Champs characters seldom take body. What's more important is the distinction about how much stun you take. Harden allows you to often take less and is more in line with what impervious is in M&M [a pale shadow of impervious but still closer to concept the damage resistance].

 

 

The posted character can actually do things 10x quicker than a normal person. Compare a SPD 2 character with a 3 CV and 6" of running versus a SPD 6 character with a 10 OCV (easily handling the multiple move-by penalties) and 15" of Flight. The Paragon moves almost 10" as fast, and can take out 10 thugs in the time that a SPD 2 character can take out 1. It's just a matter of explaining the relevant HERO maneuver to the player.

Combat and movement was not what I was referring to. In M&M the paragon could clean his house 10x faster then an average person or hero. He could type his story times times faster then the average person or hero. He could disassemble a car 10x faster then the average person or hero, etc. A character's speed has no bearing on how long it takes to do a timed job.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Combat and movement was not what I was referring to. In M&M the paragon could clean his house 10x faster then an average person or hero. He could type his story times times faster then the average person or hero. He could disassemble a car 10x faster then the average person or hero' date=' etc. A character's speed has no bearing on how long it takes to do a timed job.[/quote']

 

Movement speed may not, but DEX and SPD do. A SPD 6 char can clean, type (though that doesn't help with writer's block), and disassemble three times faster than a SPD 2 character. Plus, with a higher DEX roll, the Paragon can take a penalty to do the job quicker and still do it as well as the normal person. It may not be a full 10x as fast, but it's fast enough that it shouldn't make a difference to anyone except the most nitpicky of players.

[MitchellS]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Movement speed may not' date=' but DEX and SPD do. A SPD 6 char can clean, type (though that doesn't help with writer's block), and disassemble three times faster than a SPD 2 character.[/quote']

Those actions aren't based off of speed. Those actions are based on a preset time the GM determines they take, and you can then take a penalty to your skill roll to try and do them faster: It takes you 5 min to defuse the bomb, 30 minutes to clean your room, 1 hour to write your report [a high dex and speed would be pointless if you can't think fast enough to write the report in less then an hour].

 

Plus, with a higher DEX roll, the Paragon can take a penalty to do the job quicker and still do it as well as the normal person. It may not be a full 10x as fast, but it's fast enough that it shouldn't make a difference to anyone except the most nitpicky of players.

Saying a character should have a higher characteristic solely for potential time penalty rolls seems stupid to me. Ideally quickness in M&M should be simulated with penalty skill levels for time related actions. It shouldn't be simulated with more dex and speed as listed above because those things have no bearing on the time the GM will assign for those actions. If it takes 5 min to defuse a bomb it doesn't matter if the 6 speed or the 4 speed character is doing it. What matters is which one has the higher roll and which one can take the bigger time penalty.

 

I don't feel the archetype example I've seen above accurately represents the M&M character it states it is emulating. The Hero character above is just a brick named "paragon" but has little resemblance to the M&M archetype of the same name, IMO.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

I don't feel the archetype example I've seen above accurately represents the M&M character it states it is emulating. The Hero character above is just a brick named "paragon" but has little resemblance to the M&M archetype of the same name' date=' IMO.[/quote']

 

Your preferences are well-known. Fortunately, the average player isn't nearly as picky. If you don't like it, don't use it. Or better yet, step up and offer something of your own.

[OzMike]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Actually, I quite liked it

[gojira]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Yeah I downloaded them and I like them. gmurie, would you mind if I uploaded them to the Hero Designer site then posted them here? That's the easiest way to get formatted copies so everyone can see.

[gmurie]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Yeah I downloaded them and I like them. gmurie' date=' would you mind if I uploaded them to the Hero Designer site then posted them here? That's the easiest way to get formatted copies so everyone can see.[/quote']

 

I've made some changes to all of them in one way or another, so let me post it up myself when I'm done. I intend to put a better description of the alterations and amendments I've had to make to the archetypes so that they will work in Hero while also being easier on the beginner.

 

For example, while the Astral Form power for the Mystic is right there in black and white for M&M the only way to implement it in Hero is with Duplication. For the 15-20 points it costs it's a gimpy power, so I'll be replacing it with different abilities, and then write in the commentary that if someone REALLY wants that capability they can replace those powers to get the Astral Form power anyway.

 

Another example is that I've bought reduced or 0 END for amost everything. Of all the mechanics in Hero END is the hardest on beginners, so I do whatever I can to eliminate or reduce its use. Even at the cost of efficiency.

[JmOz]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

I've made some changes to all of them in one way or another, so let me post it up myself when I'm done. I intend to put a better description of the alterations and amendments I've had to make to the archetypes so that they will work in Hero while also being easier on the beginner.

 

For example, while the Astral Form power for the Mystic is right there in black and white for M&M the only way to implement it in Hero is with Duplication. For the 15-20 points it costs it's a gimpy power, so I'll be replacing it with different abilities, and then write in the commentary that if someone REALLY wants that capability they can replace those powers to get the Astral Form power anyway.

 

Another example is that I've bought reduced or 0 END for amost everything. Of all the mechanics in Hero END is the hardest on beginners, so I do whatever I can to eliminate or reduce its use. Even at the cost of efficiency.

 

Off topic, but I have found Multiform, of clairsentience to work better as Astral Projection than the duplication that is the "official" way

[gmurie]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Off topic' date=' but I have found Multiform, of clairsentience to work better as Astral Projection than the duplication that is the "official" way[/quote']

 

Thank you! Yes, that should do nicely!

[MitchellS]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Your preferences are well-known.

My game system preferences have no bearing on how each system's rules work. As I showed above, speed has no bearing on time penalties. I was working with in the Hero rules.

 

Fortunately, the average player isn't nearly as picky.

I thought the stated purpose of the templates were to try and convert M&M players to Champions. As an M&M player going from flying 500 mph to flying 60 mph will take some getting used to, but's probably livable. Going from being able to do mundane things superquick [10x faster then everyone else] to doing them normally is probably livable too. Going from being able to bounce tank shells to, at times, taking stun damage from 2d6 rka bullets will be much harder to swallow. Going from being able to crush tanks and military submarines into a ball in a single round to not being able to crush a chevy caprice into a ball in 1 phase is a big change that many non-picky people might sqawk at.

 

 

If you don't like it, don't use it. Or better yet, step up and offer something of your own.

That's a valid argument. Of course I had no intention of using it. I was just curious how it was being used. If I feel like putting the time into it I might offer up some 350 pt examples of my own.

[MitchellS]

Re: Conversion of M&M Archetypes as HDC files

 

Off topic' date=' but I have found Multiform, of clairsentience to work better as Astral Projection than the duplication that is the "official" way[/quote']

M&M's version of astral form is, in fact, a type of clairsentience called esp.