Another Silly Summon Question

[Blue Angel]

There was one part of the Summon rules that realy suprised me and I just can't see how this could possibly be correct.

 

But maybe you can convince me.

 

The rule is summoned vehicles (machines) requiring a +1 slavishly loyal modifier. I can think of nothing more neutral than something that has no will of it's own. Like summoning a slavishly loyal pet rock. A machine that doesn't at least contain a "sentient" computer is incapable of loyalty to anyone.

 

Granted a car will obey whoever is behind the wheel without complaint but it will obey anyone who is behind the wheel. If the vilain knocks you out and takes you're car keys the car is now slavishly loyal to him. Even an automoton can continue to resist if you are knocked out but the car doesn't care. You don't have to see much news to realize how truely neutral vehicles are to their occupants. "Go ahead, get drunk and smack me into a brick wall and kill yourself."

 

So the question is, do you think the slavishly loyal modifier makes sense for summoning things which are incapable of loyalty?

[OddHat]

Yes. No contest to controll it = Slavishly loyal.

[RadeFox]

I think it is also in place to avoid the VERY easy to abuse points monsters. Since vehicles are /5 in points already, and Summons are similarly divided, you'd end up with ridiculously cheap, and very powerfull vehicles being summoned with a dimes worth of real cost.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by OddHat

Yes. No contest to controll it = Slavishly loyal.

 

But that assumes no contest to control by you alone. What about no contest to control by anyone. If anyone can control it then you have no special control advantages above others with respect to that machine. I think the spirit of the amicable advantages is that you have extra control over the summoned creature that goes beyond anyone who just encountered it. With a summoned vehicle there is no special advantage over it. Anyone can use it with the exact same level of cooperation you will get.

 

Unless the +1 advantage guarantees that no one but the summoner can use that vehicle. In that case I could agree but for non-sentient machines in general there cannot be any advantage to amicability for anyone.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by OddHat

Yes. No contest to controll it = Slavishly loyal.

 

But +1/4 Amicable gets you out of the control roll (although you can't mistreat the Friendly or it may become less friendly).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by RadeFox

I think it is also in place to avoid the VERY easy to abuse points monsters. Since vehicles are /5 in points already, and Summons are similarly divided, you'd end up with ridiculously cheap, and very powerfull vehicles being summoned with a dimes worth of real cost.

 

Perhaps the better approach would be that Summon always costs Points/5 - you don't get a "points/25" effect by Summoning a vehicle (or a follower, or a base, etc.).

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by RadeFox

I think it is also in place to avoid the VERY easy to abuse points monsters. Since vehicles are /5 in points already, and Summons are similarly divided, you'd end up with ridiculously cheap, and very powerfull vehicles being summoned with a dimes worth of real cost.

 

Summoned vehicles don't get devided by five twice for. If they did the +1 wouldn't matter much.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

But +1/4 Amicable gets you out of the control roll (although you can't mistreat the Friendly or it may become less friendly).

 

You've answered your own protest Hugh. You can mistreat your summoned toaster all you want and it won't rebell. Though it would be cool if it did.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by OddHat

You've answered your own protest Hugh. You can mistreat your summoned toaster all you want and it won't rebell. Though it would be cool if it did.

 

My thinks thine toaster doth protest too much.

 

(no guarantee on spelling)

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

But that assumes no contest to control by you alone. What about no contest to control by anyone. If anyone can control it then you have no special control advantages above others with respect to that machine. I think the spirit of the amicable advantages is that you have extra control over the summoned creature that goes beyond anyone who just encountered it. With a summoned vehicle there is no special advantage over it. Anyone can use it with the exact same level of cooperation you will get.

 

Unless the +1 advantage guarantees that no one but the summoner can use that vehicle. In that case I could agree but for non-sentient machines in general there cannot be any advantage to amicability for anyone.

 

They have to get you out of your summoned mecha before they can try to controll it. The chance of abuse using this power is sky high. That's why the advantages in the general rules are priced to keep it expensive, and why it's a STOP power. If you want to lower the price in your home campaign, that's cool. House rules always trump the book.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by OddHat

They have to get you out of your summoned mecha before they can try to controll it. The chance of abuse using this power is sky high. That's why the advantages in the general rules are priced to keep it expensive, and why it's a STOP power. If you want to lower the price in your home campaign, that's cool. House rules always trump the book.

 

In that example I would have to agree with you. Getting you out of you're mecha would be very difficult and probably warrants a +1 advantage - again assuming no-one else can use it even if you get out of it to pick up a loaf of bread on the way home.

 

For many real world vehicles it would be very easy to get you out/off of it.

 

Some vehicles require a large crew to operate. The need for amicability extends to the crew not the vehicle itself. Unless the crew is included.

[Broblawsky]

You could put Restrainable and OIF on the Slavishly Devoted Advantage. That would reduce it to a +1/2 advantage, which seems about right to me.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Broblawsky

You could put Restrainable and OIF on the Slavishly Devoted Advantage. That would reduce it to a +1/2 advantage, which seems about right to me.

 

That is just the kind of thing I was thinking.

 

The +1 just seems too high for an object which is slavish but not loyal. A +1/2 modifier for slavish but not loyal seems to more acurately describe most vehicles.

 

If the vehicle cannot be operated by anyone else without applying special powers like machine mind control then the +1 makes sense (like the mecha example described above). But a standard minivan is incapable of loyalty and can be used by anyone who has the skills to do so. Loyalty doesn't facter into it.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

That is just the kind of thing I was thinking.

 

The +1 just seems too high for an object which is slavish but not loyal. A +1/2 modifier for slavish but not loyal seems to more acurately describe most vehicles.

 

If the vehicle cannot be operated by anyone else without applying special powers like machine mind control then the +1 makes sense (like the mecha example described above). But a standard minivan is incapable of loyalty and can be used by anyone who has the skills to do so. Loyalty doesn't facter into it.

 

Of course the guy who stole your summoned mini-van is going to be fairly surprised when you come out of the 7-11 and just summon it right back.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by OddHat

Of course the guy who stole your summoned mini-van is going to be fairly surprised when you come out of the 7-11 and just summon it right back.

 

LOL. Now that would be a surprise.

 

 

Oh. Except you couldn't summon that particular van back again unless you got the "summon specific van advantage" which would be a waste on a minivan when any one will do the same thing. Once he has stolen the van it is his. And since the van left under it's own power you are now released to summon another one.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

LOL. Now that would be a surprise.

 

 

Oh. Except you couldn't summon that particular van back again unless you got the "summon specific van advantage" which would be a waste on a minivan when any one will do the same thing. Once he has stolen the van it is his. And since the van left under it's own power you are now released to summon another one.

 

If you don't have the "summon specific van" advantage you'd better make sure you don't leave anything in the back of the thing.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by OddHat

If you don't have the "summon specific van" advantage you'd better make sure you don't leave anything in the back of the thing.

 

And if it comes with a soccor mom and a load of kids, good luck with that control role.

 

"No, we are not going after Foxbat we are going to the game. And thats final. Don't make me come back there."

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

Oh. Except you couldn't summon that particular van back again unless you got the "summon specific van advantage" which would be a waste on a minivan when any one will do the same thing. Once he has stolen the van it is his. And since the van left under it's own power you are now released to summon another one.

 

Don't get me started on the "summon specific" advantage. Apparantly, if you always want a blue van, you have to pay double...

 

A better question may be what happens to the "old" van when you summon a new one. Depends on special effects, I guess - is it created from thin air (and if so does it dissipate back when you summon a new one), or is there a van manur=facturer out there with a lot of inventory leakage?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by OddHat

You've answered your own protest Hugh. You can mistreat your summoned toaster all you want and it won't rebell. Though it would be cool if it did.

 

Depends on the toaster (watch Red Dwarf).

 

The "easy to control by me" is offset by the "easy to control by anyone else as well". My Summoned toaster will toast Dr. Destroyer's bagel. My summoned zombie won't carry his luggage.

[altamaros]

Originally posted by RadeFox

I think it is also in place to avoid the VERY easy to abuse points monsters. Since vehicles are /5 in points already, and Summons are similarly divided, you'd end up with ridiculously cheap, and very powerfull vehicles being summoned with a dimes worth of real cost.

 

Actually the difference of cost is awful between the two :

 

25 Follower (vehicle: base 125+ disadv 125 = total 250)

 

150 Summon Vehicle (total 250: 50 base points)

+ slavishly loyal +1

+ specific character +1

 

it's much cheaper to give the vehicle a few dices of megascaled teleportation (with the character as a fixed location) and regeneration from death.

(that's the way i used to create a "pokemon master" character rather than summon)

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Depends on the toaster (watch Red Dwarf).

 

The "easy to control by me" is offset by the "easy to control by anyone else as well". My Summoned toaster will toast Dr. Destroyer's bagel. My summoned zombie won't carry his luggage.

 

No it isn't (or not by much), because you can always get another one, and thus lose nothing by having Dr.Destroyer steal one of your Talky Toasters to prepare his breakfast.

 

You've gained something, you've lost nothing; it's a net advantage.

 

If you can find a cheaper way to do things (cosmic gadet pool defined as summoning gadgets, etc., etc.) that's cool too. Tweaking things to your liking in your home game works as well. Summon is a very broad power, and very easy to abuse. The built in advantages and limits reflect that.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by OddHat

No it isn't (or not by much), because you can always get another one, and thus lose nothing by having Dr.Destroyer steal one of your Talky Toasters to prepare his breakfast.

 

You've gained something, you've lost nothing; it's a net advantage.

 

If you can find a cheaper way to do things (cosmic gadet pool defined as summoning gadgets, etc., etc.) that's cool too. Tweaking things to your liking in your home game works as well. Summon is a very broad power, and very easy to abuse. The built in advantages and limits reflect that.

 

The ability to get another one is already part of the summon power so no additional modifier is required to describe it. So being able to get another one is not really of issue with regard to amicable modifiers.

 

I do agree that "easy to control by me" is NOT completely offset by "easy to control by anyone else as well". Obviously the summoner can usually swing things so he gets first use of the vehicle., but that fact is already built into the summon power to begin with.

 

There are some elements of the focus rule here though. With an OAF someone can take it and use it against you or remove it from your reach which is an additional -1/2 over an OIF. If a summoned vehicle can readily be used by someone else (your enemies) then it is in some ways accessible. This assumes the vehicle does not dissappear once taken from you.

 

I think that HERO is versatile enough to recognize that not all summoned vehicles carry the same amicability benefits. Of coarse GM's descretion is the final deciding factor.

 

This is the way I see it:

 

+1/4 Minimum for any summoned vehicle. Anyone can just get in and drive. A motorcycle is a good example of this.

+1/2 Summoned vehicle has security system/locks which require skill rolls to defeat. No problem for an experienced car thief. This is the minimum for exceptional vehicles which go beyond street legal or have weapon systems.

+3/4 Summoned vehicle has advanced security system or simple AI which will offer token resistance to enemies. This is a difficult steal such as an armored vehicle which is hard to break into. Star ship enterprise would fall into this catagory.

+1 Summoned Vehicle has advanced AI and will take action on it's own to protect it's relationship with the summoner. KIT from Knightrider is a good example of this.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

This is the way I see it:

 

+1/4 Minimum for any summoned vehicle. Anyone can just get in and drive. A motorcycle is a good example of this.

+1/2 Summoned vehicle has security system/locks which require skill rolls to defeat. No problem for an experienced car thief. This is the minimum for exceptional vehicles which go beyond street legal or have weapon systems.

+3/4 Summoned vehicle has advanced security system or simple AI which will offer token resistance to enemies. This is a difficult steal such as an armored vehicle which is hard to break into. Star ship enterprise would fall into this catagory.

+1 Summoned Vehicle has advanced AI and will take action on it's own to protect it's relationship with the summoner. KIT from Knightrider is a good example of this.

 

As house rules, I'd have no serious problem with this system. My own house rule is that summoned devices default to only being useable by the summoner. If you wanted a point break for a stealable summoned device, then I'd rule that you couldn't summon that device or its equivelant back in that game session.

 

If it makes a difference in play, it's worth points; if not, it's just special effects.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by OddHat

As house rules, I'd have no serious problem with this system. My own house rule is that summoned devices default to only being useable by the summoner. If you wanted a point break for a stealable summoned device, then I'd rule that you couldn't summon that device or its equivelant back in that game session.

 

If it makes a difference in play, it's worth points; if not, it's just special effects.

 

Well, I guess we are in agreement then. Thanks for your input.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by OddHat

No it isn't (or not by much), because you can always get another one, and thus lose nothing by having Dr.Destroyer steal one of your Talky Toasters to prepare his breakfast.

 

You've gained something, you've lost nothing; it's a net advantage.

 

By the rules, the maximum number of robots (toasters sounds a little silly so I'll change it) I can have summoned at one time equals my maximum number summoned. I can't just dismiss the old one at will - I have to dispel it, suppress it or persuade it to leave of its own accord (maybe there should be a "return" advantage). So, once Dr. Destroyer takes control of my robot, and assuming I can only summon one, I'm out of luck until it somehow gets eliminated.

 

So I have given up something. I am now attacked by my own "slavishly loyal summoned creature" because he'll follow anyone's orders. I'm worse off than a standard Summon - just because I fail the ego roll doesn't mean I get attacked, and certainly doesn't mean the creature automatically sides with my enemies (or whoever has the control box).