Scaling Damage for SH Campaigns

[RadeFox]

I was always happy with the damage scales used in the old d6 based Star Wars games, and thought it did add a lot to games and realism in play. I like my Sci FI both operatic and hard at the same time, which can be a damn hard thing to pull off or find, I admit.

Anyways, I was toying around with some ideas with our group for a suitable means to incorporate similar damage scales into Hero system. Here is what we came up with, put forth for perusal and polish.

 

Standard: Would be personal/character or small vehicular scale. Damage and Defenses are normal.

 

Fighter Scale: Equivalent to weapons/armor mounted on fighters, tanks, Mecha, or other military styled vehicles.

 

Starship Scale: The standard for most ship based weapons/armors, from merchants to pirates to system defense boats and destroyers.

 

Capital Scale: The Big Guns of the Fleet. This level include the weapons/armors mounted on ships of Frigate size, on up to and including the massive battleships and most dreadnoughts.

 

Planetary Scale: The planet killers. Maybe not as huge as the Death Stars gun, but, it would take a dreadnought spinal mount, or a huge starbase or planetoid to mount weapons/armors of this scale.

 

To use the levels in play, damage and defenses are adjusted per the following:

 

Level......Dmg X....Def X

Standrd......1.........1

Fighter.......3.........3

StrShp........5.........5

Captial........7.........7

Plntry.........9.........9

 

By using a multiplier instead of increasing the number of dice, it allows for more 'lucky shots'. It is far easier to roll max on a 2d6 weapon and have it multiplied for scale, then it would be to roll max on 6d6, 10d6, etc... This allows for that bit of fear factor in combat to remain, while at the same time, not totally dissing the little fighters in a fleet actions. One good shot at a weak point is all it might take to seriously affect a larger ship.

 

This also makes it a bit more realistic in that a PC's Ion Blaster is quite unlikely to pose any threat to a fleeing bounty hunters starship. I mean, if ships and shields have to withstand micro-meteors travelling at astromical speeds, would a little gun really hurt them??

 

I realize too, this seriously wonks the whole points values for those folks who are stringent points calculators. I admit, I'm not sure how to work this sort of scaling system into the points designer. Would love suggestions to that end, for the number addicts.

[tabascojunkie]

it's funny i was thinking about this same thing yesterday. i'd like to use mechs in a game sometime and it seems that their huge arm cannon or whatever might be written up as a 3d6 KA. a normal person could have a small blaster rifle and do the same damage. seems alittle out of balance. i know someone will respond to this telling me that mechs have more defenses or something, but it would be nice to see a game mechanic for the effect.

[RadeFox]

Thats pretty much my assumption to. Points wise, it kinda screws with things, but from a realism or strory standpoint, scaling damage seems to make sense. Just constantly giving things more and more dice of KA and 10's upon 10's of Armor seems like it would only end up with HUGE amounts of dice, and too much counting and math to maintain either Fun or Story flow.

[Nevenall]

I've toyed with the idea of using the megascale advantage, or something like it, for attacks and defenses.

Something like every muliple of x5, is a +1 Advantage. Then you get extra damage, without the terrible cost.

What I haven't figured out is a reasonable drawback to megascaling your attacks and defenses. Something similar to the normal megascaling drawback of not being able to use less then what one 1" is.

Perhaps it automatically costs x10 Normal End?

[RadeFox]

Hmm, +2-3 Advantage per Step on the Scale Chart. That could work. Add in a Limitation of x5 or x10 End for every level bought should be good for a -3/4 to -1 to help keep the points from running amok too. Would mean you'd need a much bigger power plant at each Size Scale to power your guns and /or Force Fields, which of course, also makes sense. This might work...

 

The cost increase of the +2-3 advantage per Scale also would work to make it likely that ships would be armed with a wide range of weapon scales. A Battleship might only have 4 batteries of Captial class weaponry, 8 banks of Ship class missiles, and 24 Fighter class point defense turrets. I like this idea a lot!

[Guest Keneton]

Scaled Damage

 

The damage as written for vehicles in Star Hero does not need scaled, It is already HUGE. The Antimater missiles carried by a small Wasp Fighter do 25d6 RKA Explosion!!!

 

Why would you need to scale damage?

 

Also, lets leave room for cross genre stuff like the Silver Surfer flying through Kree warships. Champions can handle scale without megadamage (dumb) or the various scaled systems like T20 (better) or d6 system (very bad).

 

As far as the too many dice things go, you are not counting stun just body on those big RKA's. If you can handle a Champions Martial Artsist throwing 10d6 Normal, how come the math is too hard for a 10d6 RKA agianst an object.

 

The idea has merit mind you, but I see the drawbacks as outweighing the advantages.

[RadeFox]

With scaled damage in place, those ships wouldn't have a 25d6 attack in the first place. It'd be bought to maybe 4 or 5d6, with applicable Advantages as we are working out here, then simply multiplied.

 

As I stated earlier, using a smaller set of dice for damage an multipliers favors the little guys a bit more, since, as mentioned, it is easier to max out a 2d6 or 3d6, wuth multiples, then it is with 15d6. Once you get past 10d6, you are almost guaranteed an Average result every time. Which in gamestory terms pretty much sucks. Your main guns will ALWAYS do the same amount of damage, and if another ships armor is higher, you arent likely to ever get through.

 

I like the idea that lucky shots get through more often, and I think, in real world battles, damage in fleet actions tends to follow similar lines. One good hit/lucky shot, and a ships fate is decided.

 

As for cross over stuff, if you plan on having supers in SH/TE games, then by all means, stick with the handfuls of dice, since the PC's are unlikely to be in normal ships anyways. And super powers in comic settings are able to rip up battleships in space. But in a more hard sci-fi world, the concept of a mutant taking out a battleship with his powers should be out of the question, imo.

[Guest Keneton]

If you still want to use TE ships than this is going a long way to solve a minor problem. I agree that the fewer dice can favor PC's with lucky shots. I just think that the problem is small enought that the work around is more hassel thna its worth.

 

Once agin I'll note that the idea has merit, but you are giving somethings up.

 

As for the point about average rolls sucking, I see your point. For sci-fi this is not all that bad alsthough. The universe in sci-fi is gerally orderly and predictable and this is good for story telling.

[SilverMarble]

I would say that you need to let the numbers fall where they are. Hero has never (to my simple knowledge) ever had multiple classes of damage. That is one of the aspects of the game that is so great. I would also say that if you are concerned about the point costs of certain things, like large weapons and ships defenses, you should be. Ships and large ship type weapons should cost a WHOLE LOT in points. That is what makes them so hard to get and dangerous to encounter. The original post dealing with the different classes of damage can be handled neatly by applying power advantages to the BIG ships' weapon systems. Take for example the tac-nuke micro missile mentioned earlier at 25d6 RKA. That is on a fighter, on a "Planet Killer" it might be double AP and double penetrating or something like that. Always remember that the Hero System was designed to be simple yet expansive in its scope. At least that is how I see it. I hope this ramble made sense to someone.

[RadeFox]

With a +3 advantage per scale in place, big ships guns would still cost every bit as much, if not more then a straight dice RKA. What I'd like to avoid in my own game, is the 25d6 RKA, crap.

 

Good gods of tech, why even roll? You know its going to be 87 Body or damn close every time. Not too mention thats a farking LOT of dice to roll, they must think we all game on 6'x8' tables to have room to be rolling multiple handfuls of dice.

 

I've been playing with the numbers in mock battles and it's been working pretty well so far. Larger ships don't have a lot to fear from craft two or more scales down from them, but, with a good AP attack, and a 'lucky roll', it is possible for a fighter to do damage to a ship of the line.

 

I think I will polish and test some more, but Im pretty sure I'm going to use something like this in my SH games.

 

Another thing that I'm seeing as a common component in space battle using scales, is that a Find Weakness comabat program (or something like Luke Skytrotter using the force), will be a damn nice thing to have as part of your fire control systems.

[SilverMarble]

Perhaps I am missing some of the thread or something... Could you elaborate on how a 25d6 RKA does only 25 BODY and 87 Stun? Even if you use standard effects, should it not be more like 75 BODY? I know I am just an incompetent normal, but isn't this correct? Please advise. Thanks in advance.

[RadeFox]

My mistake, I figured it as a normal attack. It would be 87 body, almost every time.

Edited above post.

[SilverMarble]

No problem, I just thought I missed something...being incompetent like I am.

[SilverMarble]

I would say, however, that Large "Ships of the Line" should fear fighters. It makes sense that a large amount of fighters would have the ability to take out a large ship. Ship to Ship combat should be a VERY dangerous endeavor. The larger ships are equipped with fighters for the main purpose of taking out other ships and defending against attack. If you find that the flavor is lost, perhaps you could take the tactic of making the defenses better on the larger ships. It would make sense that the Flagship class of vessell might have extra shielding which would be represented by not making the shields ablative. A small merchant ship probably only has one shield generator as opposed to the advanced systems found on a Battlecruiser.

 

While I understand your concerns regarding the number of dice dropped in one of those massive attacks, I do not agree that by itself that would be a show-stopper. I think that if you are trying to have the flavor of your campaign be one of military battles in which the players are just part of the crew or line officers, then perhaps you should look into the damage classification system originally proposed.

 

In my humble opinion, Star Hero was created and intended for character driven story arcs, not massive space battles. Although it works in any scale and genre, if all you are looking to do is to have large space battles, perhaps you should look into other systems out there.

 

Personally, I love wargaming large battles using hundreds of minatures. But that is not what attracts me to the Star Hero campaign. If I want to have a war driven campaign, i would probably utilize a minatures based system like GW Battfleet Gothic.

 

I am currently co-GMing a Star Hero campaign in which the players have a ship, but I HOPE they do not try to go up against an Empress Class. (Hint to all of you in my campaign.) There are times to get into battle and there are times to accept the fact that you will be boarded.

 

Again, that is just my 2cr worth.

[SCUBA Hero]

25d6 RKA

 

Okay, for one of the math/computer whizzes:

 

What is the BODY probability distribution for a 25d6 RKA? Not the whole honking thing, but maybe with upper and lower limits of 1%.

[Captain Obvious]

If you want to avoid rolling all those dice, make part of the attack standard effect and roll the rest of it. This will compress your bell curve some, depending on how much you make standard effect, but if counting up all those dice is slowing your game it's probably worth it.

 

As far as getting average rolls all the time, you don't really need to get far from average to make a big difference. If you're carrying weapons doing 25d6 RKAs, then your opponents should be sporting 50 to 75 points of DEF (slightly less if some of the dice are standard effect dice). We'll say, for the sake of argument, that they have 50 BODY each. Your 50 point opponents would be taken out with about two hits on purely average rolls. Just a little higher than average (100 out of a possible 150) will take it out in one hit. Your tougher 75 point opponents could conceivably be taken out with one hit, but it's much less likely. Most will take about 4 hits. A roll slightly less than average will mean that it takes 5.

 

Giving an opponent the opportunity to make one more attack before putting him down can have tremendous consequences in a game. In a fight against multiple opponents, this can really add up.

[Guest Keneton]

The aformentioned weapon (MAME Launcher) has a ard time hitting in combat because most ships have a point defnse system built as missile deflection. The missiles are usually launched after these are down or to get te oppenet on the defensive. They are a large threat to poorly defended vessels.

 

The standard effect rule should be used often and liberally when running big ship to ship battles. PC's should not use this rule for their manned guns. Thisis already alluded to in Star Hero.

 

[Mordacius]

With a +3 advantage per scale in place, big ships guns would still cost every bit as much, if not more then a straight dice RKA. What I'd like to avoid in my own game, is the 25d6 RKA, crap.

 

Good gods of tech, why even roll? You know its going to be 87 Body or damn close every time. Not too mention thats a farking LOT of dice to roll, they must think we all game on 6'x8' tables to have room to be rolling multiple handfuls of dice.

 

Eh. I've got a better way to handle it, IMO:

 

New Advantage: Randomize Damage, -0

This is sort of the opposite of the intention of the Standard Effect Rule: you factor the DC of an attack, and roll one part of it, multiplied by the other.

 

For instance, 25d6 can be broken down into 5d x 5 damage if Randomized, 12d6 might break into 2d x 6, or 3d6 x 4, depending on how you wanted it to feel in play.

 

If you wanted to keep a notion of Scale, per WEG, just make people always buy weapons in an appropriate increment. So if Fighter Scale is x3, Fighter Weapons should only be bought in increments of 3d, for example (or broken down like partial DCs - a 4d attack at Fighter scale would simple be 1d+1 x 3).

 

Seems like less trouble to me than applying strange damage MegaScale rules which could weird up point costs.

[RadeFox]

Hmm, thats not bad. I'll play with some more sample combats using something akin to that, to see how it plays out.

[Mordacius]

Cool. I'll be curious to know how that goes, actually.

[Brett]

A compromise would be to just use the regular rules since they are already designed for balance, then use a lower dice amount with a multiplier.

 

Design the 25d6 RKA normally. When it hits, roll 5d6 and multiply the result by 5. This should give similar results to the 25d6, require fewer dice to be rolled, and help with the middle range results problem of rolling many dice.

 

This is what I do with any roll requires a large amount of dice.

[Brett]

Sorry. I should have read all the previous posts.

 

Mordacius said the same thing days ago.

[Mordacius]

Great minds, yada, yada, yada.