Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

[Remjin]

Hello, friends... breaking my trend to talk equipment in here, I thought I'd tap into the creative set round these parts. I've been playing in a very wide monster hunterstyle game which made me realize what that title means and I a.m suddenly full of imagery from movies and comics and my brain. I cannot draw worth poo, but I can at least communicate a bit.

 

Very common images: liquid fire in varying colors from a variety of sources, lots of shadow with contrasting light, gothic feel, and a mixture of modern and archaic technology. Specific images: English broadsword held horizontally while drenched in liquid fire in the hand of a dark figure in a trenchcoat over archaic armor, a flat brimmed hat shadowing the face of a man with a revolver-style handcannon with burning runes on the barrel shroud in liquid flame, shadows that hide evil things tittering with laughter...

 

I've always had an appreciation for some of the grimness in Catholic mythology, and even some of the art from the middle ages and the rennaissance period. The whole world within a world setup is also appealing.

 

I like some elements of movies like Hellboy, Underworld (heck, if nothing else I like the main character's clothing...;-), some of Resident Evil's monsters, 28 Days Later, Memento, 8mm, The Crow, Sandman, Death (3 piece mini-series), Blade (all), and many others. Its a whole dark and light thing, and things that go bump in the night that most don't realize.

 

The problem: establishing a world that incorporates all this and limiting the monsters (be they mindless or intelligent) to the theme without totally being cheesy. Culminating all of this with a single idea of a world that is simple yet convoluted. It seems to slip away everytime I try, while getting close. There must be a somewhat common denominator to bring this together, the hard part being pearing away elements to make a better cohesive whole.

 

I realize this isn't terribly original, I just want it to be cohesive in theme and have a context. More in next post.

[Remjin]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

oops. I'm having posting issues it seems... sorry about that. Said it didn't post or couldn't post when I hit submit. :/

 

In any case, I am trying to avoid the whole White Wolf games stuff as I don't like their overall theme so much though the subject matter is interesting. I would want it to be more like a Hunter game, though, as I have no interest in the players being vampires and the like.

 

I'm flabbergasted by the posting SNAFU, I lost my train of thought. Please post to this thread, any and all ideas are welcome. I kept it to this genre because I do want this to be gritty, with varying power levels to be available from low to high and still be playable even if the scale of things changes a bit. I'm mostly thinking in the 150-200 point range characters.

[The Monster]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

Would using ideas from Constantine and In Nomine work as a broad background? Only where the PCs are not angels/demons, but the lesser servitors/agents thereof?

 

Just musing...

[csyphrett]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

Also sometimes you don't need the whole background. You just need a start point. Once you have that one thing, you can add on.

 

Take something like the Crow. The central premise is a man who comes back from the dead to avenge a wrong. If that is a start up, how many Crows are there, does anyone know about this, does the authorities use them as bloodhounds to make arrests? All kinds of things can be put on.

 

I'm just saying that sometimes you just need that spine, that central idea. Then you can add on at will.

CES

[Remjin]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

Would using ideas from Constantine and In Nomine work as a broad background? Only where the PCs are not angels/demons, but the lesser servitors/agents thereof?

 

Just musing...

 

If you mean Constantine the movie, then yes... I liked the imagery therein. As for In Nomine, I know nothing of it except the vaguest ideas.

 

Right now, my idea centers around the Hunter ideal. The images so far are just a jumbled bunch of cool ideas with no core.

 

Take something like the Crow. The central premise is a man who comes back from the dead to avenge a wrong. If that is a start up' date=' how many Crows are there, does anyone know about this, does the authorities use them as bloodhounds to make arrests? All kinds of things can be put on.[/quote']

 

This is essentially what I'm looking for is an overall core theme. Outside of the mystical aspects in a modernish world, I'm not sure where to go with it.

 

I'm preliminarily thinking of using the catholic angle, where the church is a main protagonist against the evils in the world, just because of the imagery and lore that goes with it. As Monster stated, agents thereof, rather than actual angels/demons and the like.

 

I want to stick with the human angle, empowered as they might be, without massive spells and craziness. I love the part in Constantine where he reveals the tattoos on his arms and does a rather powerful thing since he's a "powerful" human, yet its overall effect on or against his enemies is little or none.

 

I know there's a good idea in here somewhere, but its escaping me.

[csyphrett]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

This is essentially what I'm looking for is an overall core theme. Outside of the mystical aspects in a modernish world, I'm not sure where to go with it.

 

I'm preliminarily thinking of using the catholic angle, where the church is a main protagonist against the evils in the world, just because of the imagery and lore that goes with it. As Monster stated, agents thereof, rather than actual angels/demons and the like.

 

I want to stick with the human angle, empowered as they might be, without massive spells and craziness. I love the part in Constantine where he reveals the tattoos on his arms and does a rather powerful thing since he's a "powerful" human, yet its overall effect on or against his enemies is little or none.

 

I know there's a good idea in here somewhere, but its escaping me.

 

It sounds like you have you're core idea, Remjin. The Catholic Church as hunters of monsters. The Church is noted for exorcisms against demons and the gathering of relics. That gives you an instant source for Ghostbusters type adventures as well things like Hellboy/BRPD, Supernatural, Reaper, and Bureau 13.

 

CES

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

It sounds to me like you're talking about what I write, primarily, which is a variant on Urban Fantasy; in this instance, Urban Fantasy Monster Hunter. Before I go rambling on, you may want to look into the game Chill, which is possibly the finest modern horror game ever assembled; it had its own mythology, some phenomenal source books, and character talents were all intentionally non-combat related. Just great stuff. Anyway.

 

I'm not entirely sure what direction you want to go. I find that these stories are best told from the viewpoint of the camera "above and slightly behind" the characters; don't macro it, micro it. Make them deal with love, loss, money, the weather, where to go to eat, etc. Weave your horror and monsters in slowly. The problem with White Wolf is that every Bartender is a Kindred, Ghoul, Garou or Kinfolk. All of 'em. Like, no matter where you go. Constantine worked well because it (like most of the Urban Fantasy I deal with) deals with a 'second reality' beneath the surface.

 

Secret cabals, organizations, the odd monster, and all that sort of thing. My Ravenloft game worked because it assumed that most people have little to go on beyond superstition and tension; they shutter their windows at night, but don't know what's out there. The whole premise of the campaign was that the players did know exactly what was out there.

 

And it scared the ever-living sh-t out of them. Is that what you want to do?

[The Monster]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

I mentioned In Nomine because it deals with the war between Heaven and Hell, pulling in a whole lot of Catholic imagery and background (properly traditional Christian theology it ain't, to be sure, but it reads as a potentially great game!). In that game, the players are generally assumed to be angels and demons, with direct conflict between the two on a very limited basis, and keeping it secret from general knowledge is very important (open war being reserved for, well, you know, The Finale). Personally, I like your idea better - the idea of empowered humans fighting a desperate battle against less-restrained evil humans and other things. Of all the White Wolf line, Hunter is far and away my favorite setting (never actually *played* any of them except Adventure (their unsupported pulp setting).

 

As far as more general themes...not sure, but one idea struck me. There's a small amount of hysteria building about the foretold end of the world - cable TV at least has had shows about Nostradamus and others whose predictions seem to either peter out about this time, or actually include dire warnings about the next few years. Of course, there's the Mayan calendar cycle (which Shadowrun played up to extremes), which also seems to indicate an apocalypse coming up soon (2012 or so IIRC). Perhaps that could be a springboard: the powers-that-be want to weight the odds in their favor as much as possible - by digging out all the old artifacts, revitalizing the mystic disciplines, awakening the unspoken names, etc. Puts a bit of urgency on the old "ancient guardian order" trope.

 

Speaking of White Wolf, I always imagined that the world according to WW/Masquerade was more what the vamps *wish* the world was like, with them ruling cities and reigning untouchable above the masses of cattle, yadda yadda. What if, in reality, very few places were so subjugated and hospitable to vampires? What if the struggle was ongoing and of varying intensity depending on the location and time, with local dominance changing hands once in a while? VtM gives way too much credit to vamps, and the common knowledge gives way too much credit to the way things seem to be. Vampires, living effectively forever (until destroyed), and the Church, the one institution on earth which can claim an unbroken line of succession going back more than 1500 years (much longer than just about any vamp has ever been alive) can play very long-term games; and while the vamps can't afford to have their existence be general knowledge (for fear the cattle will stampede), the Church would rather not have word get out because the occult feeds on fear, so it's better to not have people know than to have them paralyzed by fear (and perhaps turn to occultism themselves to resist).

 

Does that help at all?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

While I don't have much of a personal nature to contribute to the discussion (this not really being my sort of genre), our own Michael "Susano" Surbrook seems to be quite fond of it, to judge by the substantial HERO web sourcebooks he's created for various settings of this type, both original and adapted from other sources. I'm sure you could mine his excellent stuff for ideas and adaptable HERO designs. I particularly recommend:

 

Silent Mobius Zeta

 

Hellsing

 

The Phenomena Department

 

Shadows Angelus

[Remjin]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

It sounds like you have you're core idea' date=' Remjin. The Catholic Church as hunters of monsters. The Church is noted for exorcisms against demons and the gathering of relics. That gives you an instant source for Ghostbusters type adventures as well things like Hellboy/BRPD, Supernatural, Reaper, and Bureau 13.[/quote']

 

There is a certain appeal to some of this, but I don't like the idea of a built in supporting structure for characters. This should certainly be an option, but not the status quo. While there is a lot there, I want things outside of this setup as well. This core idea, while good, isn't exactly what I'm going for... though, I know, I haven't really defined what I'm actually going for, either. I tried working it from this angle, and it was just... well, not quite right.

 

Before I go rambling on' date=' you may want to look into the game [i']Chill,[/i] which is possibly the finest modern horror game ever assembled;

 

I'll have to check it out. Thanks. =)

 

I'm not entirely sure what direction you want to go. I find that these stories are best told from the viewpoint of the camera "above and slightly behind" the characters; don't macro it' date=' micro it. Make them deal with love, loss, money, the weather, where to go to eat, etc. Weave your horror and monsters in slowly. The problem with White Wolf is that every Bartender is a Kindred, Ghoul, Garou or Kinfolk. All of 'em. Like, no matter where you go. Constantine worked well because it (like most of the Urban Fantasy I deal with) deals with a 'second reality' beneath the surface.[/quote']

 

The second reality is certainly a theme I want to include. I'm not writing a story, but what you're saying applies to games as well, and I agree. Its an odd mix of "gritty reality" (though that term is over-used) and somewhat over-the-top fantasy elements. The juxtaposition interests me, but the presentation is still in a fog... probably my being indecisive at this point.

 

Secret cabals' date=' organizations, the odd monster, and all that sort of thing. My Ravenloft game worked because it assumed that most people have little to go on beyond superstition and tension; they shutter their windows at night, but don't [i']know[/i] what's out there. The whole premise of the campaign was that the players did know exactly what was out there.

 

And it scared the ever-living sh-t out of them. Is that what you want to do?

 

Somewhat. I like horror, I like fantasy, I like science fiction and even mysticism and otherwise. In a sense, I'm trying to meld some of the best elements (fear, wonder, contemplation, and mystery) into a single world that is both as complex in some sense as real life, yet as simple as curiosity.

 

I mentioned In Nomine because it deals with the war between Heaven and Hell' date=' pulling in a whole lot of Catholic imagery and background (properly traditional Christian theology it ain't, to be sure, but it reads as a potentially great game!). In that game, the players are generally assumed to be angels and demons, with direct conflict between the two on a very limited basis, and keeping it secret from general knowledge is very important (open war being reserved for, well, you know, The Finale). Personally, I like your idea better - the idea of empowered humans fighting a desperate battle against less-restrained evil humans and other things. Of all the White Wolf line, Hunter is far and away my favorite setting (never actually *played* any of them except Adventure (their unsupported pulp setting).[/quote']

 

Yeah, I'm not looking for a huge over-reaching theme, I'm just trying to gel together some simple concepts somehow. You guys are giving me a lot to think about, and the perspectives are great. The sad thing is that I'm not sure what I'm asking of you gentleman who are helping so very much when the question is just so vague. I liked Hunter, too, but I also never played it. I just read some of it and enjoyed novels and movies in that tradition.

 

As far as more general themes...not sure' date=' but one idea struck me. There's a small amount of hysteria building about the foretold end of the world - cable TV at least has had shows about Nostradamus and others whose predictions seem to either peter out about this time, or actually include dire warnings about the next few years. Of course, there's the Mayan calendar cycle (which Shadowrun played up to extremes), which also seems to indicate an apocalypse coming up soon (2012 or so IIRC). Perhaps that could be a springboard: the powers-that-be want to weight the odds in their favor as much as possible - by digging out all the old artifacts, revitalizing the mystic disciplines, awakening the unspoken names, etc. Puts a bit of urgency on the old "ancient guardian order" trope. [/quote']

 

I never even thought of that about Shadowrun. Huh. And the end of the world or the possibility thereof is certainly a tried and true idea. Mixed with the other elements, or the idea of a new age being held back by the forces of the now is also a very interesting concept. Preparing for an end that may or may not ever come with factions fighting to both prevent it and prepare for it makes for something neat. And if one could figure out a "Matrix" level twist to that "finale," it could be even more interesting. Something to definitely consider.

 

Speaking of White Wolf, I always imagined that the world according to WW/Masquerade was more what the vamps *wish* the world was like, with them ruling cities and reigning untouchable above the masses of cattle, yadda yadda. What if, in reality, very few places were so subjugated and hospitable to vampires? What if the struggle was ongoing and of varying intensity depending on the location and time, with local dominance changing hands once in a while? VtM gives way too much credit to vamps, and the common knowledge gives way too much credit to the way things seem to be. Vampires, living effectively forever (until destroyed), and the Church, the one institution on earth which can claim an unbroken line of succession going back more than 1500 years (much longer than just about any vamp has ever been alive) can play very long-term games; and while the vamps can't afford to have their existence be general knowledge (for fear the cattle will stampede), the Church would rather not have word get out because the occult feeds on fear, so it's better to not have people know than to have them paralyzed by fear (and perhaps turn to occultism themselves to resist).

 

Does that help at all?

 

Yes, it does, and goes well with what csyphrett said as well. I am very tempted to go this route, or at least a modification of this general route, because its just so gosh-darn sensible. Somehow, i rebel against making the Catholic Church the main body of all things, though. Argh. The idea works well, especially the transmutation of the philosophy of VtM.

 

While I don't have much of a personal nature to contribute to the discussion (this not really being my sort of genre)' date=' [/quote']

 

And yet I thank you for contributing resources to help me. I do really appreciate it.

[csyphrett]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

If the players found the organization, you can get a ghostbusters set up to build on which can be used as a sort of plug in

CES

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

Then worry less about starting off with 'a plot' and focus on the characters. Figure out what their heroic definition should be, and start telling the story from the street level. You may spend the first session with the Lawyer going to court; the detective bringing a perp in for justice. The hoodlum who's really an FBI agent in Deep Cover that gave the Cop the tip that brought in the perp that went to Court, where the DA hates her job and after a few rounds plea-bargains out knowing that her client is guilty as hell and defraying the damage he takes.

 

And then the next night, these four people all go out for drinks, because that's what they do.

 

WHEN SUDDENLY!!!!

[Remjin]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

If the players found the organization, you can get a ghostbusters set up to build on which can be used as a sort of plug in

CES

 

Hmmm... using the catholic model to define and then the world and other dealings with the supernatural to simply be defined by that world... is that what you're saying? That... might just work. Huh.

 

Then worry less about starting off with 'a plot' and focus on the characters. Figure out what their heroic definition should be' date=' and start telling the story from the street level. You may spend the first session with the Lawyer going to court; the detective bringing a perp in for justice. The hoodlum who's really an FBI agent in Deep Cover that gave the Cop the tip that brought in the perp that went to Court, where the DA hates her job and after a few rounds plea-bargains out knowing that her client is guilty as hell and defraying the damage he takes.[/i']

 

I'm not working on plotting here, I'm concerned with defining the world better. The focus is always on characters, the beginnings range far and wide, as I'm always experimenting on how to start things off. While I appreciate the stylistic help and such, I'm more concerned with defining the parameters on which to build all of it. The thing that always bothers me about some games is a lack of foundation with a lot of fluff. I have fluff, I'm seeking foundation. =) With the help here, I may just have it, if I can just narrow the scope a tad and focus the idea. I'm nearly there.

[csyphrett]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

Hmmm... using the catholic model to define and then the world and other dealings with the supernatural to simply be defined by that world... is that what you're saying? That... might just work. Huh.

 

I like to improvise when I run things so once I have a bunch of players, I run a startup adventure. Then I run an adventure that might have used things from the start up, Then I run an adventure that builds on the second adventure. Then I look around and I have a small but expanding map of the world.

 

Players will help shape things with their decisions.

CES

[The Monster]

Re: Help: Mental Imagery into a Campaign World

 

Here's a different angle of approach: some questions which might affect how things get built. I throw these out as examples, the idea being to look at the problem from specifics rather than starting with the keystone (kind of like building from effect...). Some may have easy or quick answers, but there's implications and ramifications that may not jump out at first.

 

Do you want the PCs to be sponsored by a human organization?

--if so, does the org have great resources, or is it an underground group?

--if so, how much authority does the org have over the heroes? (sent on missions, assigned regular beat/territory, etc.)

--if not, how do the heroes get together and get set up?

 

Do you want the PCs to be sponsored/appointed/called by a supernatural entity/ies?

--if so, how specific is the supernatural sponsor? (i.e., somewhere between the unnamed Powers from Hunter and Archangel Michael himself)

--how much intervention does the sponsor offer?

--is the nature of the supernatural sponsor questionable (e.g., Devil appearing "as an angel of light")

 

Might there be different sponsors (human or supernatural) for each PC, with the tension and competition between them a plot point?

 

Do you want the heroes to be set in one place (a city, region, or small country), or roaming worldwide as needed?

 

Are the PCs and their activities tolerated by local/world law enforcement? (I'm presuming mostly not, by your earlier descriptions, but even that may mean tension rather than outright hostility & arrest warrants.)

 

Do you want the heros to all be human, or allow a mix of races/creatures?

--if human only (as in Hunter), does that mean all other creatures are bad? Or which ones, and how do you tell?

--if a mix, are they unique (as in Hellboy), or are they simply reflective of the surprisingly large population of nonhumans walking among society in general (as in, say, Buffy)?

 

How relevant is the Church (or churches) to the heroes' struggle? Source of power, information, expertise, enemy, clueless... Religion will be one of the first places people turn to when forced to deal with the occult (the occult being the other).

For that matter, how relevant is pop occultism to the heroes' struggle? Does anybody who knows the Truth give a rat's patootie about Tarot decks or dreamcatchers, etc.?

 

The struggle the PCs get involved in: is it an ongoing "eternal" struggle against Evil (kind of like cops vs. organized crime), or is this something that only surged (or resurged) recently (the Shadowrun/Earthdawn mythos comes to mind, with eons-long tides of magic).

--if it's a recent surge/outbreak, are the PCs the first to realize it?

 

...and so on. Some of these questions may spark some concepts or connections, and they're the kind of thing that could indicate adventure hooks. And they're the kind of thing that would have to be answered fairly early in the campaign.