BobGreenwade Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 I'm trying to build a small battle ship for my Space Wizards setting, and I have an effect I'm trying to put together. The idea for a "Battle Borer" is that this fast and highly maneuverable ship can reach out to another, usually larger, ship with its tractor beam; pull itself to that ship's hull; attach itself with an airtight seal; bore a hole through the hull; and release its contents, which typically consists of about two dozen alien troopers. The way I'm leaning toward doing this is: loads of Stretching (with appropriate Modifiers) for the "reactive" property of the tractor beam; Clinging to stick to the target ship; and RKA, Area Of Effect (One Hex), No Range (and other Modifiers) for boring into the hull. But I'd like to see if anyone else has other ideas. Most specifically I'd like to show in game mechanics how the RKA creates a hole for the invaders to pass between the two ships, and isn't a weapon to be used to just open up a hole in the target ship's hull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel I built it as two separate devices: 47 Tractor Beam: Stretching 25" (125 Active Points); OIF Bulky (Tractor-Beam Projectors; -1), Cannot Do Damage (-1/2), Always Direct (-1/4), Range Modifier Applies (-1/4) 180 Lamprey Hull Breach System (LHBS): Killing Attack - Ranged 12d6, Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Must be sealed to a Hull or Similar Object; +0), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (540 Active Points); OIF Bulky (External 'Tooth' Array; -1), No Range (-1/2), Gradual Effect (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12); System 'Melts' Through Hull & Armor; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) Is that what you were thinking of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted January 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Sort of... well, close enough for discussion purposes. The above is how you'd build it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Sort of... well, close enough for discussion purposes. The above is how you'd build it? The above is what I envisioned based on your description, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Tunnelling? Oh, forgot to mention - the "Lamprey" is a great name for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Tunnelling? Through hardened hull armor, sure, you can do it that way, and it's probably much cheaper, but I think that's why I went with "RKA." It's a Hull Breach; to breach the hull you should be dealing damage, IMO. Again, not a :smack: don't be stupid reprimand, but I considered that and discarded it for this build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Most specifically I'd like to show in game mechanics how the RKA creates a hole for the invaders to pass between the two ships' date=' and isn't a weapon to be used to just open up a hole in the target ship's hull.[/quote'] Keeping with the RKA concept, one thing that comes to mind is to apply a variation on the common Must Follow Grab Limitation (-1/2), reflecting that the ship must first successfully lock onto the opposing ship's hull before it can start to bore through. It also occurs to me that a capital ship likely has several layers of hull, bulkheads etc. that you'd have to punch through before you get to the vulnerable innards. Rather than No Range, I suggest making the RKA Limited Range up to the maximum depth you want the ship's bore to be able to reach. You might also consider whether you want to build Life Support extending through the breach because the borer is sealed to the hull, or leave that to Special Effects, or specify environment-suited troops and let the interior of the breached ship decompress as it will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel I agree I'd probably do it as an attack myself, if nothing else because someone or something else might get in the way. (Really it should be both, but HERO doesn't handle 'effect dependent on target' effects very well without handwaving or custom limits/advantages which is just another form of handwave...) Partly I'd say it depends on how it's envisioned. If it cuts a nice clean hole in the hull and won't hurt anything next to the wall, tunnelling might be more appropriate. If it also might fry whoever's on the far side then an attack is more appropriate. In order to show that it's not just a way to drill holes and leave a swiss cheese enemy behind, could put limits on it that stipulate the Battle Borer gets stuck in the breach afterwards - can't just pop back out on its own, serious undertaking to remove. Depending on the alien tech available, also other ways to deliver the cargo. Temporarily make the section of hull desolid, allowing the troopers to pass through it (or 1-phase desolid devices for the troopers, allowing them to pass through the hull), or a short-ranged teleport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel 120 Lamprey Hull Breach System (LHBS): Killing Attack - Ranged 12d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (540 Active Points); OIF Bulky (External 'Tooth' Array; -1), No Range (-1/2), Gradual Effect (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12); System 'Melts' Through Hull & Armor; -1/4), Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Must be sealed to a Hull or Similar Object/Must Follow Grab; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) Both excellent suggestions, LL; done. Should we add a side effect, then; removal of LHBS creates a vacuum, you poor poor bastards who aren't ready for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Through hardened hull armor' date=' sure, you can do it that way, and it's probably much cheaper, but I think that's why I went with "RKA." It's a Hull Breach; to breach the hull you should be dealing damage, IMO. Again, not a :smack: don't be stupid reprimand, but I considered that and discarded it for this build.[/quote'] I think that this is a situation where you have to think about the effects you are looking to achieve. If the borer simply allows the movement of troops from one ship to the other then you are probably looking at a movement power like tunnelling. The problem comes if there are subsidiary effects - like hull breaches to consider. That comes down to what you want to allow as GM. Personally I would probably go the tunnelling route as it is closest to Hero game design - not allowing the SFX of what is happening to overrule the game effects. I might have certain rulings (like the borer gets stuck in the hole) to avoid the borer power being exploited as a cheap ship killer but I think that it is a movement power. I might make tunnelling with a physical manifestation though - there must be some tube between the two ships - or even teleport (portal) with physical manifestation. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel But for tunneling -- which, agreed, is absolutely a movement power -- then the 'vision' is that the SHIP tunnels in and opens on the other side? Besides, removing the device would leave a hull breach, yes? Which to me signified "an attack," which is why I went with RKA. Note: Having looked at Tunneling again, and starting to put the power together, I still don't... eh, it doesn't sit right with me. But I've put a version together for reference: Lamprey Hull Breach System (LHBS) v.2.0.0: Tunneling 2" through 20 DEF material (64 Active Points); OAF Bulky (It's a big freaking drill thingy.; -1 1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; Creates Hull Breach; -1 1/2), Restricted Path (-1) You may want to mod it (I couldn't think of how to do it off the top) so that it "stops" instead of just boring through the whole freaking ship. Even at 2", eventually it'll plow through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel You may want to mod it (I couldn't think of how to do it off the top) so that it "stops" instead of just boring through the whole freaking ship. Even at 2", eventually it'll plow through. Charges could be appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Charges could be appropriate. That could do it; or simply a Physical Limitation on the vehicle itself; Alien Bad Guy Launch Bay is attached and the drill literally can't "pull" it any further. Limited Power: Can only create breach to unload troops, -1/4. (Not all that limiting since it's doing the very job it was intended for, but it'll keep it from going through the whole ship like that awful Bond film). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maur Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Through hardened hull armor' date=' sure, you can do it that way, and it's probably much cheaper, but I think that's why I went with "RKA." It's a Hull Breach; to breach the hull you should be dealing damage, IMO. Again, not a :smack: don't be stupid reprimand, but I considered that and discarded it for this build.[/quote'] Well, this brings back up the whole problem with vehicles. You should be able to tunnel through the armor of a spaceship and still technically do 0 body to the ship as a whole given the size of the hole you are probably making to do the boarding action vs the amount of hull present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Well' date=' this brings back up the whole problem with vehicles. You should be able to tunnel through the armor of a spaceship and still technically do 0 body to the ship as a whole given the size of the hole you are probably making to do the boarding action vs the amount of hull present.[/quote'] See long, complicated, messy argument on scale. I agree with you completely, and the tunneling method models this. I almost want to slap a lim on the RKA version; "Only to create hole for breaching, does not compromise overall ship BODY." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maur Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel See long' date=' complicated, messy argument on scale. I agree with you completely, and the tunneling method models this. I almost want to slap a lim on the RKA version; "Only to create hole for breaching, does not compromise overall ship BODY."[/quote'] Which makes sense. The bore can open a hole and breach a small section of the ship (if the boarding shuttle pulls back from the hole) and can probably kill people in the vicinity of the cutting tools, but unless the crew is really unlucky and the boarded ship is very poorly designed it isn't likely to hit anything that could cause it to blow up, heheh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Which makes sense. The bore can open a hole and breach a small section of the ship (if the boarding shuttle pulls back from the hole) and can probably kill people in the vicinity of the cutting tools' date=' but unless the crew is really unlucky and the boarded ship is very poorly designed it isn't likely to hit anything that could cause it to blow up, heheh.[/quote'] "Damnit! I told them to never try to board at the warp nacelles!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Maybe it would be more fairly priced if you bought Tunneling Usable As An Attack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Maybe it would be more fairly priced if you bought Tunneling Usable As An Attack? So someone... wait, how would that even WORK? Now it sounds like a weird, broken upside down RKA that no one paid for. ACK. No no. You can do it as Tunneling, but I maintain that it's properly built as an RKA, "Does not compromise ship integrity, -1/2" so no matter how many "holes" you put in the vessel, all you'll ever do is bore through one section of the ship and create a breach. Oh, hey. I just solved the attack problem. GO ME! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel I would think Tunneling as an attack would just allow you to make the enemy ship bore through something else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel I would think Tunneling as an attack would just allow you to make the enemy ship bore through something else... That's... almost exactly what it would look like, but what does it accomplish in this case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted January 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel Based on the discussion, I'll be going with my original RKA-based build (and the method for being sure its gets through is AVLD [Power Defense], Does BODY, Penetrating). What I'm also concerned about is simulating the airtight seal between the two ships, though based on what I see in Star Hero I'm inclined to handwave it as a "Special Effects" factor of the Clinging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel What I'm also concerned about is simulating the airtight seal between the two ships' date=' though based on what I see in [i']Star Hero[/i] I'm inclined to handwave it as a "Special Effects" factor of the Clinging. Maybe a small advantage on the Clinging +1/4 or +1/2 "Airtight Seal". Or just a small adder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel FWIW my "Tunneling UAA" suggestion was merely a way to pay in Character Points to give Tunneling the ability to bore a hole through the side of a large vehicle, while not diminishing the vehicle's overall BODY... which it should be able to do mechanically, except that the default rules for Tunneling don't permit its use against vehicles. Ultimately Bob should go with whatever construct he's comfortable with, as he's obviously decided to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Re: A weird alien boarding vessel You use your Tunneling, Usable As an Attack, with the "fills in behind" property to make your enemy tunnel into an asteroid. Then you turn it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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