Switching Slots in a Multipower

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Ohh I agree with you (mostly)' date=' I was probably being a little on the defensive side, I've been ill the last couple of weeks so kind of (Overly) sensitive. Also when you look at the OP power using uncontrolled seems a better choice than CC's IMO. I also when I was posting (and rereading I was overreacting) felt you were saying that Uncontrolable was a bad way of doing it, and I wanted to make sure the option was known (so commentary). So in the end I was probably being a bit trollish/overreacting, and for that I do appoligise.[/quote']

 

No problems; I know you're good people; that's why it seemed odd coming from you. Get some rest / feel better

 

 

As far as Uncontrolled, it definitely works and does similar things, my main reason for not advocating it in this case is twofold:

 

One I'm just not crazy about END Only To Activate and 0 END combined w/ Uncontrolled. It just gets weird and is easily abused by unscrupulous players. I mean, it can work and I have and do use it when it seems appropriate, but I always do so after careful consideration of all other options. In fact, my original Vancian Magic system in use from uh...93 to 2003 or so was based on 0 END Uncontrolled w/ termination defined as Anti-Magic and duration defined via a set of formulas that were internally meaningful. It worked OK in general practice, but really required a firm GM and the aforementioned strict duration limits to prevent it from being totally abusive. I switched the Vancian Magic system to the Continuing Charges model instead around 2003 and it works so much better both in and out of game that its not even a close comparison.

 

The second reason is it is in a Multipower and thus has an effective AP cap; and being an +1/2 Advantage Uncontrolled cuts into that cap heavily making fore a weaker overall power where as the Continuing Charge approach is very likely to come out as a -0 or Limitation if the player keeps the duration reasonable.

[JmOz]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

No problems; I know you're good people; that's why it seemed odd coming from you. Get some rest / feel better

 

 

As far as Uncontrolled, it definitely works and does similar things, my main reason for not advocating it in this case is twofold:

 

One I'm just not crazy about END Only To Activate and 0 END combined w/ Uncontrolled. It just gets weird and is easily abused by unscrupulous players. I mean, it can work and I have and do use it when it seems appropriate, but I always do so after careful consideration of all other options. In fact, my original Vancian Magic system in use from uh...93 to 2003 or so was based on 0 END Uncontrolled w/ termination defined as Anti-Magic and duration defined via a set of formulas that were internally meaningful. It worked OK in general practice, but really required a firm GM and the aforementioned strict duration limits to prevent it from being totally abusive. I switched the Vancian Magic system to the Continuing Charges model instead around 2003 and it works so much better both in and out of game that its not even a close comparison.

 

The second reason is it is in a Multipower and thus has an effective AP cap; and being an +1/2 Advantage Uncontrolled cuts into that cap heavily making fore a weaker overall power where as the Continuing Charge approach is very likely to come out as a -0 or Limitation if the player keeps the duration reasonable.

 

My thanks, and I will do.

 

A thought about End only to activate and uncontrollable (more for my sake, as it is fairly obvious, but I like to state the obvious at times) from a F/X point of view you don't need the End to activate with uncontrolable if your goal is to spend END when you activate the power. The END would be of course based on the rules of uncontrolable (Spend END for howlong it lasts), but as you pay up front it is already like the ENd to activate. From a game balance POV it might be a better fit, up to the GM

[Kdansky]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

But aren't you describing Constant? Activate the Power, burn 20 END, and it lasts for 5 phases with 4 END per phase.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

But aren't you describing Constant? Activate the Power' date=' burn 20 END, and it lasts for 5 phases with 4 END per phase.[/quote']

 

No. Constant you pay as you go, each Phase. Uncontrolled allows you to pay ahead X amount of END, and then the power runs off of the END you paid in to it until it runs out. The character no longer has to control / maintain the effect themselves it runs itself.

 

A classic example is a set someone on fire napalm-like effect, an EB or RKA with Uncontrolled and maybe Sticky. It burns until the fuel runs out.

 

One of the hidden benefits of a character built to use Uncontrolled is that they can have a lower speed and still be effective by layering uncontrolled attacks that run without maintenance; if they can float two or three effects for most of a Turn, they can have a significant impact that isnt necessarily obvious on the surface of their write up. Uncontrolled is most appropriate for attacks; Persistent is the equivalent for defenses.

[tancred]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

No. Constant you pay as you go, each Phase. Uncontrolled allows you to pay ahead X amount of END, and then the power runs off of the END you paid in to it until it runs out. The character no longer has to control / maintain the effect themselves it runs itself.

 

A classic example is a set someone on fire napalm-like effect, an EB or RKA with Uncontrolled and maybe Sticky. It burns until the fuel runs out.

 

One of the hidden benefits of a character built to use Uncontrolled is that they can have a lower speed and still be effective by layering uncontrolled attacks that run without maintenance; if they can float two or three effects for most of a Turn, they can have a significant impact that isnt necessarily obvious on the surface of their write up. Uncontrolled is most appropriate for attacks; Persistent is the equivalent for defenses.

 

One thing that caused me to think of (and mention) Uncontrolled, though, is how it is used in several of the writeups in the Fantasy Hero Grimoires.

 

In our group's last FH game, the GM required me to have every spell I could cast cost END. (This was intended as a balance factor, to keep my magic from unbalancing the game. It turned out to be needed.) This meant that my defenses COULD NOT be Persistent, by the rules.

 

When I noticed that the FHG used Uncontrolled with Costs END (and/or Only To Activate) and a pre-defined duration, I modified my defensive spells the same way.

Made them tougher to cast, of course, by increasing the Active Cost (thus the difficulty of the Power Skill Roll).

The end result worked well, at least for us.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

 

When I noticed that the FHG used Uncontrolled with Costs END (and/or Only To Activate) and a pre-defined duration, I modified my defensive spells the same way.

Made them tougher to cast, of course, by increasing the Active Cost (thus the difficulty of the Power Skill Roll).

The end result worked well, at least for us.

 

My FH magic system is a multipower based, and I do the same thing. And it works for us.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Which seems weird to me, but I suppose if you're using END and you want the duration to always be (X Time) then ... what does that do to Uncontrolled? Is it Uncontrolled, Must Spend X END to power spell for T?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

One thing that caused me to think of (and mention) Uncontrolled, though, is how it is used in several of the writeups in the Fantasy Hero Grimoires.

 

In our group's last FH game, the GM required me to have every spell I could cast cost END. (This was intended as a balance factor, to keep my magic from unbalancing the game. It turned out to be needed.) This meant that my defenses COULD NOT be Persistent, by the rules.

 

When I noticed that the FHG used Uncontrolled with Costs END (and/or Only To Activate) and a pre-defined duration, I modified my defensive spells the same way.

Made them tougher to cast, of course, by increasing the Active Cost (thus the difficulty of the Power Skill Roll).

The end result worked well, at least for us.

 

There's theory, and then there's actual practice.

 

The difference is I designed such a magic system that was used pretty widely by myself and others both locally and other play groups that adopted it from the version I net-published, and after 10 years of working through its nuances and answering questions, and dealing with certain mechanical issues (like the inability to have persistent effects that you note), I formed the realization that Continuing Charges does the same thing but better.

 

YMMV

[JmOz]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

There's theory, and then there's actual practice.

 

The difference is I designed such a magic system that was used pretty widely by myself and others both locally and other play groups that adopted it from the version I net-published, and after 10 years of working through its nuances and answering questions, and dealing with certain mechanical issues (like the inability to have persistent effects that you note), I formed the realization that Continuing Charges does the same thing but better.

 

YMMV

 

How do you overcome the number of uses per day part of charges for a magic system that does not include that as a feature (Like many based on END use)?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

How do you overcome the number of uses per day part of charges for a magic system that does not include that as a feature (Like many based on END use)?

 

You spend your Real points to take up space in a VPP. Then you cast the spell, which had one Charge, and consumes said Real points from your allotment. The whole thing recovers after you've slept/meditated. Then you slot the spells again. So you can have 10 "8 real point" spells, each with one charge, and each charge is consumed with one casting.

[JmOz]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

You spend your Real points to take up space in a VPP. Then you cast the spell' date=' which had one Charge, and consumes said Real points from your allotment. The whole thing recovers after you've slept/meditated. Then you slot the spells again. So you can have 10 "8 real point" spells, each with one charge, and each charge is consumed with one casting.[/quote']

 

However, then it is not an END based system, it is a charge based, it also assumes that it is a VPP based system. When I say END I am thinking that if the character is tired from something else (Like running or fighting melee) it should tire him out as well

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

How do you overcome the number of uses per day part of charges for a magic system that does not include that as a feature (Like many based on END use)?

 

Have you seen my website? Its all documented therein and has been for many years; see the Vancian Magic System documents under Fantasy HERO.

[JmOz]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Have you seen my website? Its all documented therein and has been for many years; see the Vancian Magic System documents under Fantasy HERO.

 

Just looked over that section, you were definatly going for a, as you say, "Fire & Forget" which for that system charges is DEFINATLY the way to go.

 

Deleted portion I felt was being a bit snarky (God I need to get to feeling better, so I can stop being this careful

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Just looked over that section, you were definatly going for a, as you say, "Fire & Forget" which for that system charges is DEFINATLY the way to go.

 

Deleted portion I felt was being a bit snarky (God I need to get to feeling better, so I can stop being this careful

 

Some of the Systems that require END do use Uncontrolled...like Magecraft and Aeldenaren for instance. It's just a matter of using the right tool for the job at hand.

[JmOz]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Some of the Systems that require END do use Uncontrolled...like Magecraft and Aeldenaren for instance. It's just a matter of using the right tool for the job at hand.

 

Agreed, the only problem is that Hero is not a toolkit, it is a toolshed stocked with alot of tools, finding the right one can be difficult at times (Like my zooamorph thread over in Champions)