Switching Slots in a Multipower

[Thia Halmades]

I was going to post this to Steve, then realized (no offense to Steve) that I'd probably get the answer I was looking for here, along with heaven only knows how many other answers.

 

So here's the basic premise. You have an MP, called Paladin Abilities. 30 Active, OWSGP, All Slots OIF (of some sort), RSR (Power Skill). You have some powers:

 

1u) Smite Evil, RKA 2d6, No Range. Just a revised Deadly Blow.

1u) Detect Evil, yes I know not to put it in an MP, but it works here. It also costs END.

1u) Lay on Hands, Heal BODY 2d6.

1u) Aura of Courage, and here's the fun part. AoC is built as +10 PRE, UBO, AOE Radius No Range (centered on caster), costs END only to Activate.

 

Normally I poo-poo END Only to Activate but in this case it makes sense, and the PC & I discussed it and we agreed about the basics; i.e., only lasts for a single scene, stops working if he's KO'd, etc. Now, because it costs END only to Activate, the question is, if he turns it on, does it stay on because it costs END only to Activate, even though he will switch slots to something combat-friendly, like Smite?

 

In the same vein, we know that an Entangle, once fired, has already had the END committed to it and thus doesn't "unentangle" the target because you swapped to another power. My interpretation currently is that yes, the power remains operational because the END to turn it on has already been committed, which was my intention when I wrote it. What's the official line, and beyond that, what does the assembled think? Not in a "would you allow it," but from a common & dramatic sense.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Now' date=' because it costs END only to Activate, the question is, if he turns it on, [i']does it stay on because it costs END only to Activate[/i], even though he will switch slots to something combat-friendly, like Smite?

No. The effect would end when slots were changed. If you want the effect to hang around, I'd suggest a build based around Aid. This is not like an Entangle, which is specifically noted, along with things like Mind Control, as a "continuing-effect" power. This would be like STR in a Multipower. You switch slots, you lose the STR.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

No. The effect would end when slots were changed. If you want the effect to hang around' date=' I'd suggest a build based around Aid. This is not like an Entangle, which is specifically noted, along with things like Mind Control, as a "continuing-effect" power. This would be like STR in a Multipower. You switch slots, you lose the STR. [/quote']

 

For a smart guy, I'm dumb as a hammer sometimes.

 

Aid is the answer to this. I'm going around my ankles to get to my rear, which clearly I couldn't find with both hands and a map this morning. Aid. Y'doi.

 

New question, while I'm thinking about it:

 

I build a power, say, Flight.

I buy it UBO.

I then put AOE on it.

Does the power now affect anyone in the AOE, because I paid for an AOE, OR, does it still only affect up to the number of people specified in the UBO, and AOE becomes the Range modifier (basically, I can hit anyone in this area with my UBO up to X people).

[tancred]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Thia, another thing to note (because I ended up asking Steve about it, too:D) just because a Constant Power has Costs END Only To Activate does NOT make it Persistent.

 

In other words, even though he only pays END to start the Power, if he's Stunned or Knocked Out after that it turns off.

You can't make a Power that costs END Persistent. In that case, you have to use Uncontrolled.

(This came up in our last Fantasy Hero game, because I had some defensive powers that the GM required to cost END. Since they'd turn off if I got Stunned or Knocked Out, I had to make them Uncontrolled.)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Thia, another thing to note (because I ended up asking Steve about it, too:D) just because a Constant Power has Costs END Only To Activate does NOT make it Persistent.

 

In other words, even though he only pays END to start the Power, if he's Stunned or Knocked Out after that it turns off.

You can't make a Power that costs END Persistent. In that case, you have to use Uncontrolled.

(This came up in our last Fantasy Hero game, because I had some defensive powers that the GM required to cost END. Since they'd turn off if I got Stunned or Knocked Out, I had to make them Uncontrolled.)

 

Oh, hey, good point! Thanks, Tancred.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

I build a power, say, Flight.

I buy it UBO.

I then put AOE on it.

Does the power now affect anyone in the AOE, because I paid for an AOE, OR, does it still only affect up to the number of people specified in the UBO, and AOE becomes the Range modifier (basically, I can hit anyone in this area with my UBO up to X people).

The latter.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

The latter.

 

That's what I thought, but I appreciate the confirmation. Thanks, Derek.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

I was going to post this to Steve, then realized (no offense to Steve) that I'd probably get the answer I was looking for here, along with heaven only knows how many other answers.

 

So here's the basic premise. You have an MP, called Paladin Abilities. 30 Active, OWSGP, All Slots OIF (of some sort), RSR (Power Skill). You have some powers:

 

1u) Smite Evil, RKA 2d6, No Range. Just a revised Deadly Blow.

1u) Detect Evil, yes I know not to put it in an MP, but it works here. It also costs END.

1u) Lay on Hands, Heal BODY 2d6.

1u) Aura of Courage, and here's the fun part. AoC is built as +10 PRE, UBO, AOE Radius No Range (centered on caster), costs END only to Activate.

 

Normally I poo-poo END Only to Activate but in this case it makes sense, and the PC & I discussed it and we agreed about the basics; i.e., only lasts for a single scene, stops working if he's KO'd, etc. Now, because it costs END only to Activate, the question is, if he turns it on, does it stay on because it costs END only to Activate, even though he will switch slots to something combat-friendly, like Smite?

 

In the same vein, we know that an Entangle, once fired, has already had the END committed to it and thus doesn't "unentangle" the target because you swapped to another power. My interpretation currently is that yes, the power remains operational because the END to turn it on has already been committed, which was my intention when I wrote it. What's the official line, and beyond that, what does the assembled think? Not in a "would you allow it," but from a common & dramatic sense.

 

No. The difference is Entangle is INSTANT.

 

To stay on after you've switched slots you need to put it on a Continuing Charge. There are other more esoteric ways to accomplish a similar effect, but thats the most direct way.

[JmOz]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

No. The difference is Entangle is INSTANT.

 

To stay on after you've switched slots you need to put it on a Continuing Charge. There are other more esoteric ways to accomplish a similar effect, but thats the most direct way.

 

Only because continuing charges include the Uncontrollable advantage, if it does not use charges you want uncontrolable added to it.

 

And while it is against RAW, I would allow a AE UBO to stay in effect as long as they are still in the AE

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Only because continuing charges include the Uncontrollable advantage, if it does not use charges you want uncontrolable added to it.

 

And while it is against RAW, I would allow a AE UBO to stay in effect as long as they are still in the AE

 

Well, the purpose for me is to make sure it's RAW compliant, and KS pointed out the piece I was missing: Entangle is an Instant with an effect that lasts. This power would not be Instant, hence, even though it Costs END Only to Activate (-1/4) it would still cease working once he switched away from it.

 

I think Derek was right in saying this is a by-the-book Aid PRE, 4d6, Only to Protect Against PRE & Fear Attacks (-1/2), Costs END, Delayed Fade Rate (1 minute). IDHMBIFOM, so I need to make sure the whole thing comes in at 30 AP, but that'll be the construction.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Only because continuing charges include the Uncontrollable advantage, if it does not use charges you want uncontrolable added to it.

 

Continuing Charges don't include Uncontrolled. They are very similar to and in some ways are actually better than Uncontrolled and Persistent both since they cost no END natively and their termination is set by the length of the charge -- 1 charge gets you x duration as opposed to Uncontrolled where the duration is determined by how much END you can / choose to pay into it on activation. In short scale / single conflict per day situations Charges win hands down; in a long term / multi conflict per day situation the Uncontrolled might win out (if the other build runs out of Charges).

 

 

* Continuing Charges are effectively Persistent+; they keep working even if the character that activated them is Stunned, Knocked Out, or Killed.

* Charges taken on Inherently Persistent Powers (such as many Defenses) cap out as a -0 Limitation; they never become an Advantage in this scenario.

* Attacks bought on Continuing Charges (must also have the Continuous Advantage) continue doing damage until the Charge expires.

* Powers in Variable Power Pools and Multipowers on Continuing Charges are not deactivated by switching slots around; once activated they continue to work until the Charge expires even if the activating character reallocates their VPP Pool or switches their Multipower to other slots.

 

 

The downside is of course that they must have a "reasonably common" way to turn them off, similar to 0 END Uncontrolled effects.

[JmOz]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Continuing Charges don't include Uncontrolled. They are very similar to and in some ways are actually better than Uncontrolled and Persistent both since they cost no END natively and their termination is set by the length of the charge -- 1 charge gets you x duration as opposed to Uncontrolled where the duration is determined by how much END you can / choose to pay into it on activation. In short scale / single conflict per day situations Charges win hands down; in a long term / multi conflict per day situation the Uncontrolled might win out (if the other build runs out of Charges).

 

 

1) Continuing Charges are effectively Persistent+; they keep working even if the character that activated them is Stunned, Knocked Out, or Killed.

2) Charges taken on Inherently Persistent Powers (such as many Defenses) cap out as a -0 Limitation; they never become an Advantage in this scenario.

3) Attacks bought on Continuing Charges (must also have the Continuous Advantage) continue doing damage until the Charge expires.

4) Powers in Variable Power Pools and Multipowers on Continuing Charges are not deactivated by switching slots around; once activated they continue to work until the Charge expires even if the activating character reallocates their VPP Pool or switches their Multipower to other slots.

 

 

The downside is of course that they must have a "reasonably common" way to turn them off, similar to 0 END Uncontrolled effects.

 

Uncontrolled does all of the above except number 2, assuming END is still in the power, also note that charges normaly give 0 endurance...

 

The point about single combat vs multi day, that is the nature of charges IMO

[Sean Waters]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

For a smart guy, I'm dumb as a hammer sometimes.

 

Aid is the answer to this. I'm going around my ankles to get to my rear, which clearly I couldn't find with both hands and a map this morning. Aid. Y'doi.

 

New question, while I'm thinking about it:

 

I build a power, say, Flight.

I buy it UBO.

I then put AOE on it.

Does the power now affect anyone in the AOE, because I paid for an AOE, OR, does it still only affect up to the number of people specified in the UBO, and AOE becomes the Range modifier (basically, I can hit anyone in this area with my UBO up to X people).

 

I'd have to check, and I'm wary of disagreeing with Derek, but I'm pretty sure that 'AoE' superceeds the 'number of targets'. Otherwise there would be very little point in having it - it would allow for simultaneous UBOing, but nothing more. There may be something in the FAQ on it, from memory. I'll get back to you.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

I'd have to check' date=' and I'm wary of disagreeing with Derek, but I'm pretty sure that 'AoE' superceeds the 'number of targets'. Otherwise there would be very little point in having it - it would allow for simultaneous UBOing, but nothing more. There may be something in the FAQ on it, from memory. I'll get back to you.[/quote']

 

Would you please? I'd appreciate it. I know that HD says that you need to buy UBO before you can buy AOE, so I know one is chained to the other, but it would seem reasonable to me that buying "UBO" and then "AOE" of the appropriate range would cover it.

[JmOz]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

I'd have to check' date=' and I'm wary of disagreeing with Derek, but I'm pretty sure that 'AoE' superceeds the 'number of targets'. Otherwise there would be very little point in having it - it would allow for simultaneous UBOing, but nothing more. There may be something in the FAQ on it, from memory. I'll get back to you.[/quote']

 

IIRC Derek is right, it is a special case for AoE & UBO, but my internal logic has never liked it. thus my house ruling...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

No, my recollection was faulty - I may have been getting confused with UAA (which doesn't use # of targets and can affect averyone in an area).

 

Q: How does the Area Of Effect Advantage interact with Usable On Others? If a UOO power also has an Area Of Effect, can if affect everyone in the area regardless of whether the number of people/weight limit is exceeded?

 

A: Area Of Effect does not overcome the number of people/weight limit imposed on UOO powers. However, it does have some effects. First, it makes it easier to target the power, since it only has to hit DCV 3 to affect the target area. Second, up to the number of people/weight limit, it allows the user to affect anyone in the area, regardless of whether he has Line Of Sight to them, as long as the effect is maintained (in other words, Area Of Effect sort of takes the place of Persistent in this respect).

 

I did note one other thing in the FAQ I had not really been aware of though: if you buy a power UBO you can't sue it yourself UNLESS you bestow it upon yourself. Hadn't appreciated that.

[archermoo]

I'd have to check' date=' and I'm wary of disagreeing with Derek, but I'm pretty sure that 'AoE' superceeds the 'number of targets'. Otherwise there would be very little point in having it - it would allow for simultaneous UBOing, but nothing more. There may be something in the FAQ on it, from memory. I'll get back to you.[/quote']

 

You would be right to be wary. From the FAQ:

If a character has a Constant power that’s Self Only (like Force Field or a Movement Power), can he apply Area Of Effect to it to “give” other people around him the Power?

 

No; to achieve that effect, he must use Usable By Other, with the special effect being “my power extends to those near me.” However, in some situations, based on special effects and other considerations, a GM might allow Area Of Effect Constant Self Only Powers.

 

The Ref can of course run it however they want, but buying up the number of people in UBO is the RAW way to do it.

 

Edit: Dang, not fast enough.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

You would be right to be wary. From the FAQ:

 

 

The Ref can of course run it however they want, but buying up the number of people in UBO is the RAW way to do it.

 

Edit: Dang, not fast enough.

 

Fantasy HERO has a section on using AoE for beneficial effects, since it is much easier to design certain common "spell" like effect, such as Circle of Protection etc using AoE.

 

So, technically its not legal, but its presented as viable at least in some circumstances in official product.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Uncontrolled does all of the above except number 2, assuming END is still in the power, also note that charges normaly give 0 endurance...

 

The point about single combat vs multi day, that is the nature of charges IMO

 

You say this like you think I don't know it. What exactly are you arguing about? Do you not agree with what I posted or are you just providing running commentary? Unsure what the problem is here, exactly.

[archermoo]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Fantasy HERO has a section on using AoE for beneficial effects, since it is much easier to design certain common "spell" like effect, such as Circle of Protection etc using AoE.

 

So, technically its not legal, but its presented as viable at least in some circumstances in official product.

 

Which gets covered by the "However, in some situations, based on special effects and other considerations, a GM might allow Area Of Effect Constant Self Only Powers." bit. It isn't the default position of the rules, but is certainly a reasonable use of them under some circumstances.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Which gets covered by the "However' date=' in some situations, based on special effects and other considerations, a GM might allow Area Of Effect Constant Self Only Powers." bit. It isn't the default position of the rules, but is certainly a reasonable use of them under some circumstances.[/quote']

 

Oh dear, I'm confused again. What would be the point of an AoE self only power? I mean, maybe for people with duplication, but....

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Oh dear' date=' I'm confused again. What would be the point of an AoE self only power? I mean, maybe for people with duplication, but....[/quote']

 

IIRC I've used it before to represent a Damage Shield that works vs Ranged Attackers too. A little hand wavy, but it worked out ok.

[JmOz]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

You say this like you think I don't know it. What exactly are you arguing about? Do you not agree with what I posted or are you just providing running commentary? Unsure what the problem is here' date=' exactly.[/quote']

 

Ohh I agree with you (mostly), I was probably being a little on the defensive side, I've been ill the last couple of weeks so kind of (Overly) sensitive. Also when you look at the OP power using uncontrolled seems a better choice than CC's IMO. I also when I was posting (and rereading I was overreacting) felt you were saying that Uncontrolable was a bad way of doing it, and I wanted to make sure the option was known (so commentary). So in the end I was probably being a bit trollish/overreacting, and for that I do appoligise.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Here we go: Meltdown

 

Complete with disclaimer in the Powers / Tactics section:

 

The Radiation Field power deserves special mention; the intent of this ability is for anyone within 576" that he attacks with the blasts in his Radiation MP (or in HtH) also take this Radiation damage as well; and anyone attacking him from within 576" also take the damage. This is not a strictly legal usage of Damage Shield, but is a more straightforward way of accomplishing the effect than buying a Triggered EB with a Detect and so forth. GMs not comfortable with this usage should drop the AoE and upscale the dice of effect instead to meet the minimum AP requirements of the EC.

[archermoo]

Re: Switching Slots in a Multipower

 

Oh dear' date=' I'm confused again. What would be the point of an AoE self only power? I mean, maybe for people with duplication, but....[/quote']

 

As a default? The same effect as taking Armour Piercing on them would. Not all advantages are appropriate to all powers under all circumstances.