Time to Turn Around

[Photon1966]

Hello there

 

An interesting thing happened tonight with our rogue and big fighter sparring. The rogue moved up and went behind her to get the lower DCV, then she went behind him and did the same. Then he again went behind her and attacked and she did likewise. It was all rather silly to look at. It raised several questions but mainly how long does it take to turn around? We figured by the rules it is a 1/2 phase but thought that maybe a Acrobatics roll could turn the character around or flip over opponent. We also wondered if while say the Barbarian turned on her defensive maneuver at 5pts which takes a 1/2 phase that maybe she could also turn around, then attack. I know it isn't something that will typically hapen but it did raise some odd tactics and questions of the game mechanics.

 

Thanks in advance and sorry if this has been discussed before.

[Alibear]

Re: Time to Turn Around

 

I would not have allowed that. You see boxers, karatekas etc sparring and they always turn with each other as they fight, you never see someone stand still as their opponent runs round him to get at his half dcv.

 

That is a big no-no unless you have your opponent stunned or you make him think you are doing something else it just isn't possible.

[Alibear]

Re: Time to Turn Around

 

Just to add.

 

I always picture combat in my head and then see which maneuver is aplicable rather than looking through a list of maneuvers and doing one of them.

[Kdansky]

Re: Time to Turn Around

 

Even then, I would just assume you can turn at any time. Now if two opponents attack you from two sides at more or less the same time: Yes, then one of them *might* get some bonus.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Time to Turn Around

 

This was extensively discussed a few months ago and I believe that the consensus was that it takes no time to turn to keep your opponent in view. I’m sure someone with better search-fu than I have will be along to post a link to the original discussion soon.

 

Personally my decision is that it is a zero phase action to turn to keep your opponent in view.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Time to Turn Around

 

I believe the discussion Diamond Spear is referring to was here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53032

 

Let me draw your attention to relevant passages culled from the online rules FAQ:

 

 

Question: How long does it take a character to turn around/change facing?

 

Answer: The only specific rules in the system for changing facing pertain to Teleportation (5ER 234). As a default, changing facing while Running, Leaping, Swimming, or Swinging should be a Zero Phase Action in most circumstances, meaning a character can’t do it after performing a Full Phase Action, but the GM can change that based on the situation, the abilities involved, common and dramatic sense, and other relevant factors. Changing facing with Flight or Teleportation is governed by Turn Modes and/or the the use of the Position Shift Adder (5ER 124, 234).

 

 

 

Question: Does "Surprised" differ from "being attacked from behind," and what are the implications for Defense Maneuver and the like?

 

Answer: Generally speaking, there’s no difference between "Surprised" and "from behind." The very first sentence describing the Surprised Combat Modifier lists "from behind" as one possible way to be Surprised. The DCV Modifiers Table on 5ER 372 lists the condition separately for the simple reason that the table would be largely useless if it didn’t list common conditions modifying DCV - that’s the whole reason it’s there. The "from behind" penalties mirror those for Surprised because they’re the same thing.

 

The solution is to apply the concept of "expecting an attack" with a little common and dramatic sense. Ordinarily a character in combat expects to be attacked. Another attacker leaping out from ambush in addition to whoever’s already attacking him probably isn’t much of a surprise. Neither is a character with Stretching reaching around to smack him "from behind." In those situations, there’s probably no good reason to apply a "Surprised in combat" modifier.

 

On the other hand, even if someone’s in combat, a new attacker creeping up on him from behind, particularly if Invisible or using Stealth or the like, probably would inflict the "Surprised in combat" modifier on the character, at least for his first attack. It doesn’t make much sense that Invisibility, or even Stealth, would become completely useless in that situation. If the character has good reason to suspect an attack from behind or from an Invisible foe, perhaps the modifier shouldn’t apply - and in any event there are already penalties for being unable to sense an Invisible opponent.

 

The benefit to Defense Maneuver I is that reasonableness of belief becomes irrelevant. The character’s fighting style or perceptions keep him from being Surprised from behind in combat regardless.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Time to Turn Around

 

I was going to mention Defensive Maneuver but there's no point because Steve already did. Darn him. Anyway. Unless you're playing a "tactics" style game where everything else freezes while you move, this fails the common & dramatic sense measure. However, I submit that someone can only watch people in their LOS; while I would never say "Sure, she just holds still while you walk around behind her..." I also wouldn't notify her if someone was sliding up behind her while she was otherwise distracted.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Time to Turn Around

 

Hero doesn't really enforce facing in the way that some games do. I would assume that keeping an opponent relatively 'in front' of you is a free action in Hero terms. Of course you do HAVE a facing, and if you choose to face one way you may well be showing your back to another.

 

I would probably allow some sort of bluff attempt, based on acting, maybe, or a PRE attack, or maybe an acrobatics roll to allow you to get behind someone, but, rather than necessarily using the rules for attacking from behind, I'd probably just rule it as a surprise maneouvre, so you get +1 to 3 the first time you do it, with diminishing returns thereafter.

 

I'd probably only give the 'attack from behind' DCV penalty if the attack was by someone you didn't know about at all, or you'd deliberately turned your back on.

 

Even when you are not having a phase (so to speak) you are not just standing there gormelessly: the movement is constant, so that's why I'd do it that way.