Autofire Option

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Autofire Option

 

Autofire used to give you an OCV bonus. +4 for 10 shots in the olden days, then +2 for 5 (and optionally +1 for a 3-shot burst).

 

I'd call what you described 'walking the target.' The idea is you fire tracers or watch for the bullets hitting the ground down range and correct your aim, 'walking' the stream of bullets to the target. Takes more than 5 rounds, I'd think. Maybe it could be an improved form of 'setting' that requires you to fire on the phase you set?

 

 

Ralistically, autofire reduces the likelihood that any give shot will hit, while increasing the chance that each least one will. I'm sure someone pointed out that the original Autofire meant that you hit three times on any roll that would have normally been a hit, which was too good. Now, autofire does nothing to increase your chance of hitting at all, it just rewards you for hitting 'well.' Making it good for high OCV characters, and bad for low OCV.

 

I remember that rule!Put the fear of automatic weapons in you! Realistically something like walking the target or the plus makes lots of sense. However cinematically , The bad guys put out enormous volumes of fire and our heroes dodge them the same as everything else. I guess it depends on what you're going for. If I did something like the increases in OCV though , I'd model it in not give it free with a rule change myself but since my campaigns are all over the top cinematic present way works just fine..

[braincraft]

Re: Autofire Option

 

Given the Hero mechanics' date=' unless you have a massive OCV advantage over your target, you are very likely to miss with several shots in any event. If they are unlikely to hit, then sacrificing them is no sacrifice at all.[/quote']

 

I don't see that anyone's getting an edge over by spending 100 points on a 10-shot Autofire 10d6 Energy Blast instead of 85 points on a 5-shot Autofire 10d6 Energy Blast and +5 OCV levels. If someone wants to buy +5 OCV, costs END, x25 END cost, real cost 25 points, let him.

[archermoo]

Re: Autofire Option

 

Given the Hero mechanics' date=' unless you have a massive OCV advantage over your target, you are very likely to miss with several shots in any event. If they are unlikely to hit,t ehn sacrificing them is no sacrifice at all.[/quote']

 

A couple of things to keep in mind. Autofire skills are Full Phase actions that reduce your DCV by half. So there is a trade of for using them in the first place.

 

As to the existing Autofire skills that Killer Shrike mentioned:

 

Precise Sprayfire I gives you a +1 OCV for every 2 shots fired at the same target. So 2 or 3 shots give you a +1, 4-5 gives you a +2, etc. And you only actually hit them once regardless of the number of shots you fire.

 

Precise Sprayfire II doesn't give you an OCV bonus at all, but it means that you hit with an extra shot for every 1 you make the roll by, rather than for every 2.

 

Deadly Sprayfire changes how damage works. Rather than adding an extra damage roll for every extra hit, you add 1DC to the attack for every extra hit. So a 3d6RKA that you hit 4 times with turns into a 4d6RKA. Rather than 4 3d6RKAs.

 

Of those three, two of them have warning signs on them (Precise Sprayfire II and Deadly Sprayfire).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Autofire Option

 

Given the Hero mechanics' date=' unless you have a massive OCV advantage over your target, you are very likely to miss with several shots in any event. If they are unlikely to hit,t ehn sacrificing them is no sacrifice at all.[/quote']

 

I actually like the trade off rule and have used it for years.

 

Because it makes autofire act more like it should, honestly.

 

As you just pointed out, there is virtually NO situation where having more bullets coming out of the gun increases the chance to hit the target without using an additional AF skill.

 

So, an AF 5 submachine gun and an AF 100 Minigun fired by the same guy both hit a single target with the same odds.

 

Counterintuitive, counterproductive to increase the ROF for autofire (AF 10 already pushes the limit as far as practical maximum hits based on the spread of the dice), and in the end.... counter to real world expectations.

 

In this here really real world, the intent is generally to increase the chances of scoring a hit by putting more lead in the air, or to engage multiple targets, or establish control over an area (suppression fire). The latter two are modeled well, but I've been opposed to completely removing OCV bonuses from AF attacks since 4th came out (which is when I adopted the trade off house rule) it actually does give a big advantage to those guns with a higher rate of fire than the game will let you hit with, so there is some returned utility for all the extra points and charges you spend for the attack.

[The Main Man]

Re: Autofire Option

 

Man, I really need to return to Ultimate Skill; I missed that one.

 

And this is why I consult the boards first.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Autofire Option

 

I don't see that anyone's getting an edge over by spending 100 points on a 10-shot Autofire 10d6 Energy Blast instead of 85 points on a 5-shot Autofire 10d6 Energy Blast and +5 OCV levels. If someone wants to buy +5 OCV' date=' costs END, x25 END cost, real cost 25 points, let him.[/quote']

 

The problem to me is that you are getting something as a gimme. You buy 10x Autofire and, if you are aiming at, say, the broad side of a barn (or trying to break out of Professor Pervert's 'Kill Me Now' Trap (you don't want to know) you can manage 10 shots, no problemo OR if you really just need to hit once you can manage +9 to hit.

 

I mean it is not the same as buying a fixed 5xAutofire+5 OCV because you are getting, in effect, a sort of multipower, all for the cost of a single skill, which isn't, in all likelihood, going to cost as much as a single ultra slot.

 

What we have, in many ways, is one of those conflict points betweem heroic and superheroic games - I really don't think such a skill should be allowed in a superheroic game - pay for your utility properly, dammit! - but in a heroic game, I'd probably be willing to look the other way. It is, however, still a bit - difficult - to swallow, as it is modelling a 'complete effect' retroactively into the system rather than building an ability to match a concept - it STARTS with the concept.

 

As it is a skill and it is slightly more palatable, but, well, you know what I'm thinking?

 

I'm thinking it is a shame we are JUST doing this with combat skills. Let's beef up autofire! Pah - why don't we beef up Conversation with cunning gambits? Why don't we beef up Climbing?

 

I know that combat tends to be the most richly detailed area of many RPGs, but this smacks of looking for new stuff for a certain type of player to get excited over, and before you know it, you're playing 2nd edition DnD.

 

OK, that is perhaps the apocalyptic view of it, but I'm an apocalyptic kinda guy

[Sean Waters]

Re: Autofire Option

 

A couple of things to keep in mind. Autofire skills are Full Phase actions that reduce your DCV by half. So there is a trade of for using them in the first place.

 

As to the existing Autofire skills that Killer Shrike mentioned:

 

Precise Sprayfire I gives you a +1 OCV for every 2 shots fired at the same target. So 2 or 3 shots give you a +1, 4-5 gives you a +2, etc. And you only actually hit them once regardless of the number of shots you fire.

 

Precise Sprayfire II doesn't give you an OCV bonus at all, but it means that you hit with an extra shot for every 1 you make the roll by, rather than for every 2.

 

Deadly Sprayfire changes how damage works. Rather than adding an extra damage roll for every extra hit, you add 1DC to the attack for every extra hit. So a 3d6RKA that you hit 4 times with turns into a 4d6RKA. Rather than 4 3d6RKAs.

 

Of those three, two of them have warning signs on them (Precise Sprayfire II and Deadly Sprayfire).

 

You definitely get more options, and that is probably a good thing, but, as i emntioned above, I think this sort of relatively massive increase in utility for a skill level cost (I'd image they are 5 points?) can be desperately unbalancing in a superheroic game, whereas in a heroic game, where there is access to the same weapons by most characters, and there are fewer point sto play with, it is likely to be less so.

 

I mean, add precise sprayfire 2 and Deadly sprayfire, and you've almost got a disintegration beam going - in a superhero game the cost/benefit ratio is way off the curve.

 

Of course if you are not paying points for your weapons, it matters much less, so it would be less of a problem to me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Autofire Option

 

I actually like the trade off rule and have used it for years.

 

Because it makes autofire act more like it should, honestly.

 

As you just pointed out, there is virtually NO situation where having more bullets coming out of the gun increases the chance to hit the target without using an additional AF skill.

 

So, an AF 5 submachine gun and an AF 100 Minigun fired by the same guy both hit a single target with the same odds.

 

Counterintuitive, counterproductive to increase the ROF for autofire (AF 10 already pushes the limit as far as practical maximum hits based on the spread of the dice), and in the end.... counter to real world expectations.

 

In this here really real world, the intent is generally to increase the chances of scoring a hit by putting more lead in the air, or to engage multiple targets, or establish control over an area (suppression fire). The latter two are modeled well, but I've been opposed to completely removing OCV bonuses from AF attacks since 4th came out (which is when I adopted the trade off house rule) it actually does give a big advantage to those guns with a higher rate of fire than the game will let you hit with, so there is some returned utility for all the extra points and charges you spend for the attack.

 

The mechanical elements of Hero don't need to model real world situations ont heir own, but can when created as compound powers or with appropriate limtiations and advantages.

 

The minigum example si one where I'd expect anyone, special skill or not, to be more likely to hit a target with a 100 round burst than a 3 round burst*, so I'd build that as innate OCV bonuses to the weapon depending on the autofire setting selected.

 

Autofire on weapons in Hero is not generally modelled that way, but would solve the problem IMO.

 

You might also want to bear in mind that machine guns are cinematically inaccurate even at high rates of fire, so it depends a lot on genre whether such realistic bonuses are appropriate.

 

 

 

 

*assuming a stable base: without one, anyone using a minigun is just going to be lying on their back shooting the man behind them - even Arnold.

[archermoo]

Re: Autofire Option

 

You definitely get more options, and that is probably a good thing, but, as i emntioned above, I think this sort of relatively massive increase in utility for a skill level cost (I'd image they are 5 points?) can be desperately unbalancing in a superheroic game, whereas in a heroic game, where there is access to the same weapons by most characters, and there are fewer point sto play with, it is likely to be less so.

 

I mean, add precise sprayfire 2 and Deadly sprayfire, and you've almost got a disintegration beam going - in a superhero game the cost/benefit ratio is way off the curve.

 

Of course if you are not paying points for your weapons, it matters much less, so it would be less of a problem to me.

 

Which is, of course, exactly why those two autofire skills have warnings on them. And in fact Precise Sprayfire II specifically notes that Refs will probably want to put a cap on how many shots can hit.

[Maur]

Re: Autofire Option

 

The problem to me is that you are getting something as a gimme.

 

Not really a gimme. You pay the 5 points for the skill and then suffer for being 1/2 DCV for until your next action.

[jtelson]

Re: Autofire Option

 

I know that combat tends to be the most richly detailed area of many RPGs, but this smacks of looking for new stuff for a certain type of player to get excited over, and before you know it, you're playing 2nd edition DnD.

 

OK, that is perhaps the apocalyptic view of it, but I'm an apocalyptic kinda guy

 

Just because it's an apocalyptic view doesn't make it wrong.

 

It does seem like Hero's starting to move in a DnDward direction. Want to play an Energy projector you need the Ultimate Energy Projector, want to get the most out of Autofire, you need The Ultimate Skill.

 

What makes it worse is that many of the things I've seen can be modeled easily with the existant core rules. We've seen it here with your Multipower.

[Tonio]

Re: Autofire Option

 

Just because it's an apocalyptic view doesn't make it wrong.

 

It does seem like Hero's starting to move in a DnDward direction. Want to play an Energy projector you need the Ultimate Energy Projector, want to get the most out of Autofire, you need The Ultimate Skill.

 

What makes it worse is that many of the things I've seen can be modeled easily with the existant core rules. We've seen it here with your Multipower.

 

Please don't take this as a personal attack... but if the Ultimate series bothers you so much, why not start a thread about it, instead of making posts complaining about it in all sorts of other threads?

 

I find it somewhat disruptive to be reading a discussion regarding some subject (in this case, Autofire), and then suddenly seering a sarcastic, acerbic, or otherwise negative post regarding the Ultimate series.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Autofire Option

 

Just because it's an apocalyptic view doesn't make it wrong.

 

It does seem like Hero's starting to move in a DnDward direction. Want to play an Energy projector you need the Ultimate Energy Projector, want to get the most out of Autofire, you need The Ultimate Skill.

 

What makes it worse is that many of the things I've seen can be modeled easily with the existant core rules. We've seen it here with your Multipower.

 

uh... no.

you seem to continuously misunderstand what the Ultimate Books are for.

[jtelson]

Re: Autofire Option

 

uh... no.

you seem to continuously misunderstand what the Ultimate Books are for.

 

My understanding of what the Ultimate Books were for went something like; An in depth discussions including examples of various aspects both common and esoteric regarding the subject of the book. Simple, straight forward and incredibly useful.

 

However whenever an Ultimate book is brought up here it's not; "There's an example of how to use the HERO system to do that in The Ultimate X" it's "The new/optional rule for that is in The Ultimate X"