The Main Man Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 One of the members of my group came up with an idea for Autofire attacks. I'll call it "Focused Sprayfire" for the moment. Basically, a player can sacrifice Damage for an OCV bonus with Autofire attacks. Sacrificed shots do no damage. For every shot sacrificed, the player gains +1 OCV. For example, if a player is shooting a target with his Uzi (Autofire 5 shots) he can sacrifice two of the shots to give +2 OCV with the other 3 shots. If this OCV bonus would have allowed for the other 2 shots to have hit, they still do no damage, only the 3 non-sacrificed shots do damage. I like the idea he has, but I like to consult the boards on such ideas. Personally, it sounds like it could either be an Optional Maneuver or a new Autofire skill. Thoughts? Comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Nothing to stop you spreading just because you are also autofiring. That should do the trick. Personally I don't like the 'sacrifice hits' thing because it allows you to 'throw away' shots that probably wouldn''t have hit anyway to make it more certain that the first few do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opal Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Autofire used to give you an OCV bonus. +4 for 10 shots in the olden days, then +2 for 5 (and optionally +1 for a 3-shot burst). I'd call what you described 'walking the target.' The idea is you fire tracers or watch for the bullets hitting the ground down range and correct your aim, 'walking' the stream of bullets to the target. Takes more than 5 rounds, I'd think. Maybe it could be an improved form of 'setting' that requires you to fire on the phase you set? Ralistically, autofire reduces the likelihood that any give shot will hit, while increasing the chance that each least one will. I'm sure someone pointed out that the original Autofire meant that you hit three times on any roll that would have normally been a hit, which was too good. Now, autofire does nothing to increase your chance of hitting at all, it just rewards you for hitting 'well.' Making it good for high OCV characters, and bad for low OCV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option One of the members of my group came up with an idea for Autofire attacks. I'll call it "Focused Sprayfire" for the moment. Basically, a player can sacrifice Damage for an OCV bonus with Autofire attacks. Sacrificed shots do no damage. For every shot sacrificed, the player gains +1 OCV. For example, if a player is shooting a target with his Uzi (Autofire 5 shots) he can sacrifice two of the shots to give +2 OCV with the other 3 shots. If this OCV bonus would have allowed for the other 2 shots to have hit, they still do no damage, only the 3 non-sacrificed shots do damage. I like the idea he has, but I like to consult the boards on such ideas. Personally, it sounds like it could either be an Optional Maneuver or a new Autofire skill. Thoughts? Comments? Eh... I dunno. I'm not really one to get behind this sort of thing. Near as I can tell, AF is balanced correctly for what it does; he can choose to only fire three shots and thusly take less of a penalty than he would otherwise, which is kind of the same thing, but I wouldn't give him a bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Spear Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option My problem would be this: how does "sacrificeing" a shot add to the chance to hit, especially with a "real" weapon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonio Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option My problem would be this: how does "sacrificeing" a shot add to the chance to hit' date=' especially with a "real" weapon?[/quote'] By using that shot as a tracer (i.e. see where it went in relation to your target, and adjust your aim accordingly). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Spear Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option By using that shot as a tracer (i.e. see where it went in relation to your target' date=' and adjust your aim accordingly).[/quote'] Ok but wouldn't you then need to restict with by stateing: "ony with appropriate amunition." so some such? Hmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonio Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Ok but wouldn't you then need to restict with by stateing: "ony with appropriate amunition." so some such? Hmm.... Not really, I don't think. I used to do this all the time when I played Paintball. =) Mebbe I'd disallow it if the power/weapon had IPE, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maur Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Uh, this already exists in the Ultimate Skill under Autofire... Costs 5 points and is known as "Precise Shot I" or something like that. Gain +1 OCV for each shot sacrificed from hitting. Makes an accurate model on the idea of hosing an area down to hit that Dex 20, Spd 8, DCV 15 guy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Spear Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Not really, I don't think. I used to do this all the time when I played Paintball. =) Mebbe I'd disallow it if the power/weapon had IPE, though. Well the example given was an Uzi and since you can't see normal bullets I personally wouldn't allow it without tracers, hence the "only with appropriate amunition" limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option My problem would be this: how does "sacrificeing" a shot add to the chance to hit' date=' especially with a "real" weapon?[/quote'] It's exactly the same idea as spreading an energy blast, you hold down the trigger and flood the area with bullets rather than attempting to hit the target with many shots you maximize your chances of hitting him with a few. That being said, I'm pretty sure Autofire doesn't need any additional utility at it's current value so I wouldn't add something like this. If a player wants this maybe some limited CSLs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Eh... I dunno. I'm not really one to get behind this sort of thing. Near as I can tell' date=' AF is balanced correctly for what it does; he can choose to only fire three shots and thusly take less of a penalty than he would otherwise, which is kind of the same thing, but I wouldn't give him a bonus.[/quote'] Because there is no Penalty for using Autofire. Your OCV is the same if you fire 3 shots, 5 shots or 10000 shots. So no - it's not the same thing at all. And Maur already pointed out - this is already an Autofire Skill. They should take that if they want to perform this trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Eh... if there's already no penalty, then why would he get a benefit for firing fewer shots? I think I just see too many other ways to do this (CSLs, Accurate Ammunition, Accurate Firearms, NPAs, etc.) that I don't see a need for another rule that makes the character more accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Eh... if there's already no penalty' date=' then why would he get a benefit for firing fewer shots? I think I just see too many other ways to do this (CSLs, Accurate Ammunition, Accurate Firearms, NPAs, etc.) that I don't see a need for another rule that makes the character more accurate.[/quote'] Because everyone likes a freebee Er, not that sort, although it's nice too. It is a shame in many important ways that you can't do this: 47 Multipower, 47-point reserve 4u 1) Spray Away: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) (45 Active Points) 4u 2) Concentrated sprayfire: (Total: 47 Active Cost, 40 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Autofire (3 shots; +1/4) (37 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Uses 5 shots; -1/4) (Real Cost: 30) plus +2 with Ranged Combat (Real Cost: 10) Hey. Whaddya know? You can! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Eh... if there's already no penalty' date=' then why would he get a benefit for firing fewer shots? I think I just see too many other ways to do this (CSLs, Accurate Ammunition, Accurate Firearms, NPAs, etc.) that I don't see a need for another rule that makes the character more accurate.[/quote'] Not from firing fewer shots, from having fewer shots be able to hit. He still has to pay END/charges for all of the shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Because everyone likes a freebee Er, not that sort, although it's nice too. It is a shame in many important ways that you can't do this: 47 Multipower, 47-point reserve 4u 1) Spray Away: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) (45 Active Points) 4u 2) Concentrated sprayfire: (Total: 47 Active Cost, 40 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Autofire (3 shots; +1/4) (37 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Uses 5 shots; -1/4) (Real Cost: 30) plus +2 with Ranged Combat (Real Cost: 10) Hey. Whaddya know? You can! I was about to point out, in fact, that you can do that. However, that's a specially built power but not just "a rule." So that would be just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option I kinda like the idea that if you, with a five shot burst, deliberately fire one bullet up in the air and another straight into the ground it makes it more likely the other three will hit Am I not getting this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option I kinda like the idea that if you, with a five shot burst, deliberately fire one bullet up in the air and another straight into the ground it makes it more likely the other three will hit Am I not getting this? Statistics in action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re: Autofire Option I was about to point out' date=' in fact, that you can do that. However, that's a specially built power but not just "a rule." So that would be just fine.[/quote'] Unfortunately the 'rules genie' may already be out of the bottle. How many of the threads that are cycling through HERO System Discussion are advocating, suggesting or contemplating the use of new rules from the Ultimate and Genre books? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Back in 4E one group I was with called this "Filling The Hex" The idea was your fired your shots in such a way at a singe hex that the target had minimal chance of getting away from any one shot, even if they could escape harm from most of the shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Re: Autofire Option See The Ultimate Skill. There are two...no wait three new Autofire Skills in there IIRC; Precise Shot I & II and Deadly Sprayfire (or something like that -- this is from memory). One of the Precise Shot options does basically this; sacrifice # of distinct attacks for improvement of OCV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdansky Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Re: Autofire Option I'm not sure how balanced that is, although you would sacrifice AP limit due to taking high autofire advantages and not "using" it. I suppose I'd allow it, but I'm wary of giving out +1 OCV per shot wasted. Possibly +1 OCV for the first shot, +2 OCV for 1 plus two shots, +3 OCV for one plus two plus three, etc. Something non-linear. Meh, I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Re: Autofire Option Hmm. So, autofire works like this. I roll to hit, and if I hit, and for each two points I make the hit by, I get to roll and apply damage again. Cool. So, if I have a 5 shot autofire, I've got to succeed by 8 to hit five times. Say i'm fighting an opponent who has an inferior DCV: I've got a 2 point advantage. On an average roll, firing all 5 shots, I'll hit him twice. I could hit with all 5, but then I might not hit with any. However, if I decide that I have no chance of hitting with 2 of the shots (I'd need to roll 9 or less, so the odds are definitely against me), I can 'waste' two of the shots, and, on average, hit with three, if I have the relevant skill. I've still fired 5 shots at the same target. That's not making sense over here, but maybe I need to see it in practice. I think I'd just be inclined to buy levels with autofire. What if I have autofire (10) and decide to waste six of the bullets? Not really liking it. Looks like a way to boost your OCV in a 'hidden' way. I'd rather see your CV obviously on your character sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
braincraft Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Re: Autofire Option I'll voice the dissenting opinion and say that it's usually not efficient points-wise to sacrifice autofire shots for OCV; so even if you do call this cheating the system, it's a pretty poor example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Re: Autofire Option I'll voice the dissenting opinion and say that it's usually not efficient points-wise to sacrifice autofire shots for OCV; so even if you do call this cheating the system' date=' it's a pretty poor example.[/quote'] Given the Hero mechanics, unless you have a massive OCV advantage over your target, you are very likely to miss with several shots in any event. If they are unlikely to hit,t ehn sacrificing them is no sacrifice at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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