1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

[hammersickle59]

Is it just me or do these seem too powerful? I would like to see different peoples arguments on why these are fine or too powerful.

 

I'm going to give a brief example of abuse. Ofcourse any sane GM wouldnt allow my example but I found that with certain powers its difficult NOT to abuse them! I'm not refering to will power, I mean math...its just too cheap.

 

Everyone is playing a 250pt character. I spend my 250 pts in Multiform. I now have a 0pt form (which I will never be in or use) and a 1250pt form which I will always be in. Or I could have 1024 1000pt forms! Another words...I could be a god! with every conceivable power in the book (thats over 1 million points in powers while everyone else is playing a 250 pt character!) 1,024,000 to be exact.

 

This goes for vehicles etc...

[Diamond Spear]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

The multiform is still subject to campaign limits. Also the GM should be making sure your character fits concept and most GMs won't accept "My character is God" as a valid concept.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

If any of those have more points than you, you have to pay for the excess on a 1 for 1 basis. So, for instance, if you were playing in a campaign where characters were 100 points base + 150 in Disadvantages, you could have a Multiform (or a Vehicle, or a Follower) with up to 100 base points and 150 in Disadvantages, and any points above that your base form has to pay for at 1 for 1.

[hammersickle59]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Nope, sorry Chris. That rule doesnt apply to Multi-form or Summon or Duplicate or Vehicles.....it does apply to follower. Dont get me wrong, I think it should apply to all of them...that would make things more balance.

 

Please refer me to a page (5 RE) if i'm wrong, dont think I am though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

They are all easily abused, but if not abused outrageously, the cost is about right. Probably. If not abused.

 

Does that help?

 

Seriously though, make them much more expensive and you'll not acheive any better balance - they all require serious GM oversight. TECHNICALLY in a 350 point game capped at say 70 AP, you could summon 4x300 point body guards as a slot in a MP. This, to my mind, would be an abuse. OTOH, utility does drop off pretty rapidly - summon anything less than about 200 points in a 350 point game, at least in a combat role, and it is not going to last long.

 

That, I suspect, is the real problem with point balancing these powers - much like EB, the first half of the points are only to get you up to speed.

 

OTOH, you can build an unarmoured scout 'creature' with invisibility and desolid and mind link and a bit of flight who can tell you everything you need to know about what to expect round the next corner, all for well under 100 points. That could also be abusive.

 

In fact, and you are talking to an expert here, almost anything can be abusive BUT it can only be seen as such in context of the overall build and the position of the PC in the group and the campaign.

 

After a long period advocating restraint and regulation, and the perfection of the to cost/utility calculation, I'm getting much more liberal and open in my old age. It is all about trust and context. In the right context, a powerful summon or multiform is just an interesting and useful ability that progresses the game and everyone's enjoyment of it.

 

And trust? Well, in a gaming situation, as in so much else, you ain't got that, you ain't got a thing.

[hammersickle59]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Thanks for the post Sean. Thats what I keep trying to tell my players....anything can be abused. Build around your concept dont build your concept around which mechanics are easiest to abuse.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

I could be wrong on the 1 for 1 thing, and I don't have my book in front of me, and I don't have 5er, only 5e.

 

However, the FAQs all point to all of those things being limited, with at the very least GM permission required to go above that. In fact, the FAQs for 5e specifically mention the 1 for 1 deal for Vehicles and Bases. And Duplication.

 

I've just posted in Rules Questions. We'll see what the answer is. It's likely Steve will respond with a 5er page reference.

[jtelson]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Aren't a character's forms supposed to be built on the same base points as the original with any differences having to be balanced out by disads? So the 1000 point forms would all need 850 points worth of disads. If that they have to take the same restrictions on Multi form disads that they have to take on base form disads (Not an unreasonable assumption) they would need 850 points worth of disads with no more than 50 from any one catagory.

[hammersickle59]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Not exactly. You can do a 1000pt (lacking 750 disadvantages) but you have to pay for all the disadvantages they lack on a 1 for 5 basis (in addition to the 1000pts) This is 5ER Multi-Form that I'm going off of so it may be different in earlier additions. (this section of multi-form says "requires GM approval"...but doesnt everything say that lol).

 

Example: 1000pt multi-form cost 200pts, Since we dont want it to have 750 disadvantages we have to pay an addtional 150pts (750 divided by 5). Total real cost is 350pts for a 1000pt multi-form. (Since I'm using a 250pt character as a base then he couldnt afford it so it he would have to knock it down to 800pt or whatever.)

 

Ok...so not as powerful as my initial example.....still can be pretty abusive though.

[jtelson]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Not exactly. You can do a 1000pt (lacking 750 disadvantages) but you have to pay for all the disadvantages they lack on a 1 for 5 basis (in addition to the 1000pts) This is 5ER Multi-Form that I'm going off of so it may be different in earlier additions. (this section of multi-form says "requires GM approval"...but doesnt everything say that lol).

 

Example: 1000pt multi-form cost 200pts, Since we dont want it to have 750 disadvantages we have to pay an addtional 150pts (750 divided by 5). Total real cost is 350pts for a 1000pt multi-form. (Since I'm using a 250pt character as a base then he couldnt afford it so it he would have to knock it down to 800pt or whatever.)

 

Ok...so not as powerful as my initial example.....still can be pretty abusive though.

 

 

That's optional if the GM chooses to allow it and in your example I can't imagine one allowing it.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Multiform in particular was a change between 4th and 5th Edition that I have to assume was an active decision on SteveL's part that he wasn't going to make certain sort of uses impossible, even though it means its very subject to abuse.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

They are easily abusable Powers, yes.

 

GM and Player intervention should prevent them from being abused. Besides... I could think of far more abusive things for far less points that are far more dangerous.

 

I've made excellent use of all those Powers in games without breaking the game in any way. It just requires a little respect of the Game, the GM and your fellow Players.

And if you have Active Point Caps in place (like the standard 60 Active Points that nets you a whopping 300 pt Character) a lot of damage control has already been done.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

I'm buying a 10d6 HKA NND Does BODY; defense: you're vibrating as quickly as my Vibration Speed powers does.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

To The Pain!: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (Until Target is Dead (-BODY); +1/2), No Normal Defense (Being Dead (-BODY); +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1) (25 Active Points)

 

 

The GM said no. And it fit inside my VPP too.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

And if you have Active Point Caps in place (like the standard 60 Active Points that nets you a whopping 300 pt Character) a lot of damage control has already been done.

 

Not as much as you'd think; there's a lot of ways to finesse your way around the practical limit of active points that is usually constrained because they're expensive to do, but if you're converting each point into five more--well, let's just say it becomes a whole lot easier.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

The word "no" can work pretty well, I hear.

[Basil]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Aren't a character's forms supposed to be built on the same base points as the original with any differences having to be balanced out by disads? So the 1000 point forms would all need 850 points worth of disads. If that they have to take the same restrictions on Multi form disads that they have to take on base form disads (Not an unreasonable assumption) they would need 850 points worth of disads with no more than 50 from any one catagory.

 

True. As well, note the following (from 5th edition, page 138):

Disadvantages which can be eliminated or reduced by changing shape may be worth fewer (or no) points because their effect is so easily negated

 

Hard to come up with 850 points in Disadvantages none of wich can be reduced or eliminated by changing Forms.

[Basil]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

...you have to pay for all the disadvantages they lack on a 1 for 5 basis.... This is 5ER Multi-Form that I'm going off of so it may be different in earlier additions.

 

OMG, that's down on its hands & knees BEGGING to be abused!

 

Seriously, can anyone see that being permitted?!?

 

 

 

Tying to use it, I can see. :eg: :eg:

[Maur]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Well, in the case of multiform, you get 5 for 1 to spend in the alternate forms, but any skill or characteristic you fail to put on them from the base form they lack in the alternate. So if your base form has lots of science skills, contacts, etc... and you don't pay for those when building the alternate forms, then you lack them when you shift to those forms. So, while you can beef up that form, if it is only a "You, but not You" kind of form, then you are respending points on each alternate form to make variations on you that are mostly the same.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Not as much as you'd think; there's a lot of ways to finesse your way around the practical limit of active points that is usually constrained because they're expensive to do' date=' but if you're converting each point into five more--well, let's just say it becomes a whole lot easier.[/quote']

 

60AP is still 60AP, no matter what Form, Summoned Character or Duplicate has it.

 

And if you're finessing your way around a lot of AP Limits either you're not playing nicely or the GM hasn't explained the word Limit to you.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

The word "no" can work pretty well' date=' I hear.[/quote']

 

At that point you might as well house rule it not to be legal in the first place, though.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

60AP is still 60AP, no matter what Form, Summoned Character or Duplicate has it.

 

 

Tell that to the following two character:

 

1 12D6 EB;

2. 12D6 EB and Find Weakness on 15-.

 

I can pretty much guarentee you that on the average the latter is more powerful than the former. Similar things can be done with other powers that function as force multipliers, either offensively, defensively, or both, including things like Damage Reduction, Invisibility and more.

 

 

And if you're finessing your way around a lot of AP Limits either you're not playing nicely or the GM hasn't explained the word Limit to you.

 

If you are going to assume everyone will see this the same way, then any discussion of game balance is largely moot, as no mechanical balance is needed at all if everyone is on exactly the same page and "playing nicely".

[jtelson]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Find Weakness is an exclamation point power, so it generally should be carefully considered before allowed.

 

Mechanical balance is a tool that helps take some of the weight off the GM's shoulders not a bludgeon to keep players in line. Discussing balance isn't moot just because we also expect everyone involved to be more interested in the game than in their character being more powerful than everyone else.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Tell that to the following two character:

 

1 12D6 EB;

2. 12D6 EB and Find Weakness on 15-.

 

I can pretty much guarentee you that on the average the latter is more powerful than the former. Similar things can be done with other powers that function as force multipliers, either offensively, defensively, or both, including things like Damage Reduction, Invisibility and more.

 

 

 

If you are going to assume everyone will see this the same way, then any discussion of game balance is largely moot, as no mechanical balance is needed at all if everyone is on exactly the same page and "playing nicely".

 

That's my point.

 

Even if you break an AP for some reason, if you have to "finesse" it past the GM you're not playing nicely.

If the GM looks at it and goes "That's pretty cool, let's see how it works" you probably are playing nicely.

 

The thing about these Alternate Characters (Summoned, Duplicated, etc) is that they need to also buy all their own Defenses, Characteristics, Skills, etc.

Duplication gets very expensive, very quickly, if you plan on creating non-exact Duplicates (the Altered Duplicate can double the cost).

Summoned creatures are under GM control usually, but not always, and can either refuse the task or they also become very expensive very quickly (The Friendly Advantage isn't cheap).

And Multiform only gets you access to one set of Powers at a time.

Followers are definitely under GM control, and their own persona's. And those flip to 1-to-1 on points so they also get very expensive.

 

The point is these Powers all appear to be under priced by simply looking at them, and they are most certainly amongst the most easily abused Powers (while not looking so blatant sometimes). They are also powerful Roleplaying Tools that should be treated accordingly.

 

I've never had much problem with any of these Powers in many years of gaming. Though one accidental use of Duplication cause a slight effectiveness over estimation it did not break the game outright.

 

I personally think that you should show concern, and look at uses of these Powers closely, but that there is no need to alter how they work at all. They aren't the monsters people make them out to be.

[Paragon]

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

 

Find Weakness is an exclamation point power, so it generally should be carefully considered before allowed.

 

 

So? It doesn't change my point that AP limits are not the whole picture.

 

 

Mechanical balance is a tool that helps take some of the weight off the GM's shoulders not a bludgeon to keep players in line. Discussing balance isn't moot just because we also expect everyone involved to be more interested in the game than in their character being more powerful than everyone else.

 

I think discussing mechanical balance is, indeed, moot, if the moment there's a problem the response is "Well, with an attentive GM/a reasonable player that won't happen." Given both the latter are moving targets, its a bad assumption that it won't happen, and I think to the degree the game rules make it easy, there is, indeed, a mechanical problem. Whether its a terribly intrusive problem is another question.