Multiform

[Corrugath]

Can someone explain Multiform to me? Because it sounds insanely retarded.

 

From my understanding and based on the examples, it's just totally broken.

 

An example of my understanding is this:

 

5 players are playing. 4 of them make vastly different characters all on the same number of points. The fifth could then get multiform and, for a fraction of his total available points, shapeshift into all 4 of his compatriot's characters and still have points left over to boost his true form.

 

Is that how it works because this is just nuts. Why isn't there a ! or STOP next to it in the book? Obviously you wouldn't clone other people's characters but the idea is that you can basically make a character with 8 forms that are completely different from one another, as powerful as a regular character and still have points left.

[Starlight]

Re: Multiform

 

There seems no need to explain Multiform to you, Corrugath. I'd say you have a complete and accurate grasp of it. Oh, and you are absolutely right in my opinion. As far as I can tell it is indeed horribly broken and open to abuse.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Multiform

 

Everyone calm down and take a deep breath. This may come as a shock, but almost every power in the book can be broken if you don't exercise some common sense. Would you allow a player to spend 20 points on Extra Dimensional Movement and all the rest of his points on a massive Transdimensional Energy Blast? If you answered yes, then why are you worried about Multiform? If you answered no as I suspect you did, then you have taken the first step into balancing your game. If you don't want a character to be able to copy all of the other members of the group, simply don't allow it. On the same note, if you don't want a player to have 50 DEX and a 12 SPD, just don't allow it.

 

I will caution you, however, to experiment a bit before you decide that something is broken. I am currently in a game with a Mimic (with a full blown Multiform Variable Power Pool) and not only has he not broken the game, a clever rivalry has developed among the non-mimic players to prove that the mimic cannot top the original.

 

[edit] One last thing, in a few months when someone in your group plays a Mentalist, please refer to the above.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

*checks watch* Is it that time again already?

 

 

No - it's not broken.

Yes - it can be easily abused.

No - It can not be more easily abused that any other power.

 

 

I've yet to have Multiform break a game. I have had several other powers cause major balance issues.

[Starlight]

Re: Multiform

 

Everyone calm down and take a deep breath. This may come as a shock' date=' but almost every power in the book can be broken if you don't exercise some common sense. Would you allow a player to spend 20 points on Extra Dimensional Movement and all the rest of his points on a massive Transdimensional Energy Blast? If you answered yes, then why are you worried about Multiform? If you answered no as I suspect you did, then you have taken the first step into balancing your game. If you don't want a character to be able to copy all of the other members of the group, simply don't allow it. On the same note, if you don't want a player to have 50 DEX and a 12 SPD, just don't allow it. [/quote']

 

It doesn't shock me at all that virtually every power in the book can be broken if you try hard enough. However some powers are more broken than others. I've been playing and running first Champions and then HERO superhero campaigns since the original little grey book. That doesn't make me an expert in itself but it does mean I have a lot of HERO experience tucked underneath my belt. So when I read a power description and it visually screams 'broken' at me I tend to take note.

 

Now it's not going to cause me any problems. As a GM I have no hesitation or difficulty in saying no to any such abuse like that suggested in Corrugath's post. Not all GM's possess the experience needed to foresee such problems. Some GM's have to put up with forceful abusive players who wouldn't flinch at driving a horse and cart through a rules loophole. That is quite clear from reading some of the posts on these forums.

 

So not having obviously broken powers in the rules is better than having them. That's why there is a prohibition against selling back more than one figured characteristic for example. If we were willing to leave the burden of halting abuse solely on the shoulder's of the GM we wouldn't need that prohibition in the rules. When keeping options and flexibility for a power is more important than closing off possible openings for abuse there's a way to indicate the GM ought to give this power a second look. That's the Stop sign.

 

Summarizing, DocSamson, you are right in everything you wrote. And I'm generally in favour of leaving the 'rules as written' as open and flexible as possible. However where there are such tempting (to some) openings for abuse I think the optimum policy is to close the loophole and make the flexible but potentially abusive possibility an optional rule. Selling back figured characteristics is one such. That has been closed. Multiform is another. So is Duplication. The ones you mentioned are others.

 

Added after reading Ghost Angel's post: Yes. Okay. The word 'broken' tends to get thrown around with abandon. I do believe that Multiform is one of the more blatantly abusable powers in the book. Sure, no capable GM is going to allow any such abuse. Warning inexperienced newbie GM's with a Stop sign has to be better than throwing them to the wolves though. Especially if we want new players joining our ranks.

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiform

 

I guess I don't actually see the abuse that the OP was referring to.

 

Multiform abuse, in my mind, comes in to abuse when you have forms that have a higher point cost than the campaign norm.

 

Example... in standard superheroic game, the characters all start with 200 base, plus 150 in disads. Since technically Multiform is not limited to this maximum, the character could have an 700 point character in his MF. Now, this character would have to have 500 points of disadvantages, or with GM permission buy off the extra disadvantages (at an additional cost of 350/5 = 70 AP.

 

Now this form would cost his "true form" 700/5 + 350/5 = 140 + 70 = 210 pts, leaving only 180 points for the base character. Of course, he would never be playing just the "base character" in this way, rather, if an "adventure" (read combat) occurred, he would just change form.

 

Thus, for this 210 point power, he would have a character built on twice the number of points as the rest of the players. His base character would be nothing more than a talented normal that could change into an alternate form (perhaps Bruce Banner and The Hulk?)

 

It is this sort of thing that leads to abuse of the power. However, this isn't that much worse than a character doubling his effectiveness through the use of foci, OIHID, fancy Power Frameworks, and the like.

 

In any case, it is the responsibility of the GM to always proofread and approve any characters he or she is letting into the game. Hero doesn't enforce balance of character design through the charGen process... it enforces it with the will of the GM.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Multiform

 

"Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should".

 

Multiform is about versatility. Generally, if you give a character in a team game increased versatility you don't want him to also be the best at everything he does. So if you allow your multiformer to have a hulking Brick form, you probably want that form to be less powerful than the player whose whole schtick is "I'm the team brick!".

 

AP caps can help deal with quite a few common multiform problems. If you use an AP cap of 60 pts in a 350 pt game, then the players alternate form is only going to be built on 300 pts, plus his base form is giving up points for the ability to switch to the multiform. So both forms end up weaker, but the player has the versatility to pick the right form for the job. Of course, as you add more forms, they each have to get subsequently weaker to stay under that 60 AP cap.

 

If you allow a player to spend tons of points on multiform, chances are you are asking for trouble. He will either always have the right form for the right occasion or his forms will be way more powerful than what you would want for the base points of the game (though they will be crippled by the sheer amount of disadvantages they have to take).

 

Multiform is ultimately balanced best by common sense, playstyle and experience. I know some people that have been playing for years that still can't wrap their heads around it.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Multiform

 

"Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should".

 

Multiform is about versatility. Generally, if you give a character in a team game increased versatility you don't want him to also be the best at everything he does. So if you allow your multiformer to have a hulking Brick form, you probably want that form to be less powerful than the player whose whole schtick is "I'm the team brick!".

 

AP caps can help deal with quite a few common multiform problems. If you use an AP cap of 60 pts in a 350 pt game, then the players alternate form is only going to be built on 300 pts, plus his base form is giving up points for the ability to switch to the multiform. So both forms end up weaker, but the player has the versatility to pick the right form for the job. Of course, as you add more forms, they each have to get subsequently weaker to stay under that 60 AP cap.

 

If you allow a player to spend tons of points on multiform, chances are you are asking for trouble. He will either always have the right form for the right occasion or his forms will be way more powerful than what you would want for the base points of the game (though they will be crippled by the sheer amount of disadvantages they have to take).

 

Multiform is ultimately balanced best by common sense, playstyle and experience. I know some people that have been playing for years that still can't wrap their heads around it.

QFT - AP caps for teh win!

[Corrugath]

Re: Multiform

 

I think you guys are missing my point. It's not even about creating alternate forms that are more powerful than a base form but rather how simplistic it is to create a sort of "Jack of all Trades, Master of Everything" character. The versatility is absurd.

 

Even the examples in the book are all ridiculous. That said, I'm not saying it's impossible to create a balanced use of it, but rather that it's very easy to inadvertently create something that is way overpowered without immediately realizing it. Acting like it's no easier to break than anything else is absurd. If anything needs a "STOP" or "!", it's Multiform.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Multiform

 

I think you guys are missing my point. It's not even about creating alternate forms that are more powerful than a base form but rather how simplistic it is to create a sort of "Jack of all Trades, Master of Everything" character. The versatility is absurd.

 

Even the examples in the book are all ridiculous. That said, I'm not saying it's impossible to create a balanced use of it, but rather that it's very easy to inadvertently create something that is way overpowered without immediately realizing it. Acting like it's no easier to break than anything else is absurd. If anything needs a "STOP" or "!", it's Multiform.

While many might agree that it seems overpowered before they have actually tried it, I still believe you will find that it simply isn't. I suggest again that you try it, with an AP cap as recommended, and then let us know what you think. My personal first experience was that I was nowhere near as efficient with multiple 300 pt. forms in a 350 pt. campaign as I thought I would be. The other players developed tactics long before I was even used to all my forms. I also grew to hate wasting half-phase actions to change into the best form for the occasion while my teamates charged into the thick of things. YMMV IMHO.

[Maur]

Re: Multiform

 

AP limit of 60 would give you one form at 300pts, 2 at 275pts, 4 at 250pts and so on. So, the more forms you want to have the weaker each one is and they are fixed in form. If you want to play someone like Morph or Mystique, then you are really looking for the Shapeshift power rather than Multiform.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

I think you guys are missing my point. It's not even about creating alternate forms that are more powerful than a base form but rather how simplistic it is to create a sort of "Jack of all Trades, Master of Everything" character. The versatility is absurd.

 

Even the examples in the book are all ridiculous. That said, I'm not saying it's impossible to create a balanced use of it, but rather that it's very easy to inadvertently create something that is way overpowered without immediately realizing it. Acting like it's no easier to break than anything else is absurd. If anything needs a "STOP" or "!", it's Multiform.

 

I'm just going to say up front - you're worrying over nothing. Simple as that.

I have used Multiform in a number of games, and in a number of genres. It never once abused the game.

 

 

Multiform allows you to do a great number of things you can read in various source materials. It allows you to emulate a great number of ideas within the system.

 

But the Rules are not your mother, or your babysitter.

What is abuse in one game is underpowered in another.

Multiform is a lot less broken than many powers, in fact Multiform - by itself - is pretty low key. It's what you do with it, and how that fits into the game world, that's important.

[JmOz]

Re: Multiform

 

I actualy do agree with the OP on one thing, it should be a stopsign power

 

The potential for abuse is enough to allow that, I also thing that EVERYFORM should have to buy MF, mathimatical nightmare, but it does help the balance

 

 

So taking hulk, hulk pays for banner, banner pays for hulk...

[Starlight]

Re: Multiform

 

I think many of the posters in this thread are being blinded by their own competence.

 

They would be welcome in any game I ran. They are each speaking with a voice of experience and an understanding of how to coax the very best from the HERO system. That, I believe, is why they are failing to see the potential issues raised by certain powers. Including the Multiform power.

 

Cast your mind back. Way back. Many years in some cases I'm sure. Back to the very first time you opened up a rulebook with your friends and decided - this looks fun. Let's try it. So you read through the rules. In that early state of gaming innocence the rules are just that: RULES. You wouldn't know a house rule if it jumped up and bit you. Changing the 'rules as written' doesn't enter your head. Good GM judgement comes from intelligence moderated by experience. Back then you didn't have any experience to draw on.

 

Let me try to give an example: (Assuming a 250+100 build)

 

Player: Okay, so with this Multiform thingie I'll make a character Joe Normal and spend all 350pts on Multiform. That will give me a 1750pt alternative form.

 

Novice GM: Huh? Give me the book... Oh, right. You're an idiot. You'll have to take 1500pts of disadvantages.

 

Player: Yeah. I guess. Let me read it again... Okay, look here. It says I can pay to not have the disadvantages if you agree. I can spend 150pts for a 750pt alternative form and another, uh, 80pts to only have 100pts of disadvantages. Hey, it even leaves me 120pts to buy some of those skills.

 

Novice GM: You sure? That seems awfully good.

 

Player: It's here in the book. Page 211.

 

Novice GM: Well... Okay I guess. If it's in the book. (... and the game is toast!)

 

Shortly afterwards the game collapses amidst recriminations. 5ER is put up on a shelf to gather dust and they start playing D20. If you ask any of them later about HERO they'll tell you it's unplayable. Is this an extreme example? Yes it is. But not all that improbable. I still have my first Champions character sheet. And I have to admit it's nearly as blatant an example of power-gaming as shown above. Hey, I was young. I didn't know better. Nor did my buddy GM'ing our game.

 

The 'with the game master's permission' on p 211 of 5ER should have been read as a warning sign. Isn't spotting that implicit hint asking more than can be expected of complete newbies reading through a tome the size of 5ER for the first time? Newbies who want to get finished making characters and PLAY the game for crying out aloud! A Stop sign next to the Multiform write-up might have given the novice GM cause to think twice before giving permission for that monstrous build.

 

Now I'm going to digress a little. DocSamson and Ghost-Angel, among others, point out that pretty much the same can be said of virtually every power in the book. They are absolutely correct. I'm going to make a jump in the dark, not having any usability research figures to back me up, and state that this is why HERO is a niche game system. We glibly call it a gamer's toolkit: perhaps without thinking through the implications. HERO cannot be picked up and played from the book. That's very different to most game systems I have encountered. It means that you usually need experienced GM's to coax a good gaming experience out of the HERO system. You can only get experience by playing. Catch-22. Do the genre books provide a complete set of 'genre rules' that allow new groups to play a balanced fun game straight out of the book? I haven't bought any of the genre books so I don't know. If not maybe they should.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Multiform

 

I think many of the posters in this thread are being blinded by their own competence.

I'm not sure if that is a compliment or an insult, but I like it.

 

Regarding your example, I see again what you are saying. On the other end of the spectrum, my first time out as a HERO GM, I figured Damage Reduction before defenses, so the bad guy was knocking half of the damage off before his PD removed the rest. It took one of the players to ask "Is that right?" Then I was able to figure out what I did wrong.

 

The rules also plainly state that the GM should enforce Active Point limits on all the powers. That is very important as a lessen and one that I was able to pick up quickly. The frustration you describe regarding the misunderstanding of the rules leading to abandonment is simply, in my opinion, a sign of the times. People have gotten too used to having things spoon fed to them. I will not digress into that topic too much, but these days, people want their fix NOW.

 

HERO cannot be picked up and played from the book.

It can't? I see what you are saying, but I picked up 4th Edition Hero (not Champions, which then incorporated the Hero rules) and was successfully able to come up with a decent fantasy game. I will admit that it came easier with experience and the Fantasy HERO book from back then, but my own attempts were pretty successful.

 

That's very different to most game systems I have encountered.

On the other hand, when I first read the AD&D Players Handbook, I was lost. It took a whole other book, the Dungeon Master's Guide to "get it."

 

It means that you usually need experienced GM's to coax a good gaming experience out of the HERO system.

Or any other system. Ever try designing new spells and magic items in D&D. I'll show you fear in a handful of munchkin.

 

You can only get experience by playing. Catch-22.

That's pretty endemic of the hobby. While I played AD&D before I met an experienced GM, signing on with his group taught me more about the game and expanded my horizons as a player. More than if I wouldn't have.

 

Do the genre books provide a complete set of 'genre rules' that allow new groups to play a balanced fun game straight out of the book? I haven't bought any of the genre books so I don't know. If not maybe they should.

Absolutely! Star HERO and Fantasy HERO are the two I speak for in terms of personal experience. They do an absolutely great job. Even better are the Setting books (Terran Empire, Turakian Age, etc). Those show consistent examples of how to mold the rules within a setting.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Multiform

 

All the above being said, I do have some problems with Multiform as written. Okay, say you spend 60 points to buy a form. Then you spend another 10 points to quadruple the number of forms. All good so far. You got 70 points spent, four forms at 300 points each. So far I'm tracking you.

 

Now, it is game time. You and your fearless companions just stopped Doctor Villaindude from stealing the secret plans to a top secret Uberweapon and aside from enjoying the vast amount of praise being heaped upon you, you get a couple of Experience Points.

 

"Ah ha!" you say. "I'll just throw those points onto Multiform and bring my alternate form up to 310 points."

 

But wait, since you paid the multiple, doesn't that mean that every form gets the additional points?

[schir1964]

Re: Multiform

 

Starlight's post reminded me of the first time I played Hero. It was also the first time that my friend had GM'd Hero. This was with the 4th Edition Hero (BBB).

 

My very first character I built and played had a 135 Active Point attack power (150 Points with 100 Points of Disadvantages: 250 Point Character).

 

Due to how I had built some other things, the character was nigh unstoppable and my character was on his way to becoming a vigilante instead of a more classic hero (something I hadn't planned). We soon ended that game since it was obvious that the character would end up getting killed due to the nature of his powers and the type of game world it was.

 

Shortly after I decided to GM my own Hero game. It was then that I read through the entire book to glean as much information as possible. It was in the GM'ing section that I realized that my first character had been horribly unbalanced.

 

How can this happen? Simple, some people have that attitude of, "GM Instructions? We don't need no stinkin' GM Instructions! Let's Play!". (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

I think many of the posters in this thread are being blinded by their own competence.

 

Blinded? Hardly.

 

One of the reasons I play Hero is because it does not take me by the hand, pat me on the head and babysit me through my games. It goes "HERE! Try not to hurt yourself." and sits down nice and quiet like.

 

They would be welcome in any game I ran. They are each speaking with a voice of experience and an understanding of how to coax the very best from the HERO system. That' date=' I believe, is why they are failing to see the potential issues raised by certain powers. Including the Multiform power.[/quote']

 

Quite the opposite - we not only See the potential, we Understand the potential. And are therefor able to Utilize that potential to maximum effect to create, break, not break, fondle, carress, mangle, bend, and glorify our games to create anything and everything we want.

 

Cast your mind back. Way back. Many years in some cases I'm sure. Back to the very first time you opened up a rulebook with your friends and decided - this looks fun. Let's try it. So you read through the rules. In that early state of gaming innocence the rules are just that: RULES. You wouldn't know a house rule if it jumped up and bit you. Changing the 'rules as written' doesn't enter your head. Good GM judgement comes from intelligence moderated by experience. Back then you didn't have any experience to draw on.

 

Let me try to give an example: (Assuming a 250+100 build)

 

Player: Okay, so with this Multiform thingie I'll make a character Joe Normal and spend all 350pts on Multiform. That will give me a 1750pt alternative form.

 

Novice GM: Huh? Give me the book... Oh, right. You're an idiot. You'll have to take 1500pts of disadvantages.

 

Player: Yeah. I guess. Let me read it again... Okay, look here. It says I can pay to not have the disadvantages if you agree. I can spend 150pts for a 750pt alternative form and another, uh, 80pts to only have 100pts of disadvantages. Hey, it even leaves me 120pts to buy some of those skills.

 

Novice GM: You sure? That seems awfully good.

 

Player: It's here in the book. Page 211.

 

Novice GM: Well... Okay I guess. If it's in the book. (... and the game is toast!)

 

Shortly afterwards the game collapses amidst recriminations. 5ER is put up on a shelf to gather dust and they start playing D20. If you ask any of them later about HERO they'll tell you it's unplayable. Is this an extreme example? Yes it is. But not all that improbable. I still have my first Champions character sheet. And I have to admit it's nearly as blatant an example of power-gaming as shown above. Hey, I was young. I didn't know better. Nor did my buddy GM'ing our game.

 

The 'with the game master's permission' on p 211 of 5ER should have been read as a warning sign. Isn't spotting that implicit hint asking more than can be expected of complete newbies reading through a tome the size of 5ER for the first time? Newbies who want to get finished making characters and PLAY the game for crying out aloud! A Stop sign next to the Multiform write-up might have given the novice GM cause to think twice before giving permission for that monstrous build.

 

No - I don't think so. I'm not buying that a GM would simply go "Oh, it's asking me to agree, meaning double check or think twice... huh. Maybe I should wait before going down that road..." - Or, you know, march blindly forward into ruin without stopping to think for a second.

 

Now I'm going to digress a little. DocSamson and Ghost-Angel' date=' among others, point out that pretty much the same can be said of virtually every power in the book. They are absolutely correct. I'm going to make a jump in the dark, not having any usability research figures to back me up, and state that this is why HERO is a niche game system. We glibly call it a gamer's toolkit: perhaps without thinking through the implications. HERO cannot be picked up and played from the book. That's very different to most game systems I have encountered. It means that you usually need experienced GM's to coax a good gaming experience out of the HERO system. You can only get experience by playing. Catch-22. Do the genre books provide a complete set of 'genre rules' that allow new groups to play a balanced fun game straight out of the book? I haven't bought any of the genre books so I don't know. If not maybe they should.[/quote']

 

Hero is a System. It is NOT a game. It tells you how to MAKE a game.

Steve didn't call it a Toolkit "without thinking through the implications" .... he knew EXACTLY what it was, and what it provided and what it didn't provide. And you will find that many of the old hero players on the boards chose Hero Specifically Because Of That Aspect.

 

Like Nolgroth I picked up the 4E Hero System Rules (not the BBB), and was able to play (oddly enough a Fantasy game as well) pretty quickly.

 

The Genre Books provide a number of concepts, ideas and things you can do with the Hero System to create a Game. Fantasy Hero comes with a large number of Package Deals to quickly put together some typical Fantasy Characters and Races. It has several ideas on how to build a Magic System, and provides some examples. Champions has a whole Power-Quick-Generation system. Star Hero goes into technology and ship building. Pulp Hero concentrates on a lot on Genre Convention. Dark Champions has more guns than your corner gun store, as well as a number of ideas on modern gaming conventions (and nice section on forensics).

 

Hop on over to the Product Boards and start reading some of my reviews. I lay out what the books provide, and in some cases some thoughts on how to use them.

 

Hero System does not tell you how to play a game. It shows you how to make the game you want to play.

 

Nolgroth: RE: Experience & Multiform - yes all forms get the points on a Mechanical level. Doesn't mean they have to use them if the concept doesn't fit.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Multiform

 

Nolgroth: RE: Experience & Multiform - yes all forms get the points on a Mechanical level. Doesn't mean they have to use them if the concept doesn't fit.

Hmmmn. Not good. I see myself throwing in a few modifications to the Multiform rules should that ever come into play amongst our games.

 

Just thought of a funny, if somewhat silly, concept; Everyman. Multiform 25 points, x (however many forms it would take to literally assume the form of every man on Earth). 'course, I could see a GM looking at that for a moment and then saying, "Sure. Now build me each and every character sheet." I know I would.

 

And try not to be too hard on the new guys. I think in many ways, the neophyte perspective allows us old guys a chance to look at stuff that we take for granted.

[JmOz]

Re: Multiform

 

Here is a simple question:

 

Does anyone truley thing that adding a Stop Sign to the power is a bad idea?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

Hmmmn. Not good. I see myself throwing in a few modifications to the Multiform rules should that ever come into play amongst our games.

 

Just thought of a funny, if somewhat silly, concept; Everyman. Multiform 25 points, x (however many forms it would take to literally assume the form of every man on Earth). 'course, I could see a GM looking at that for a moment and then saying, "Sure. Now build me each and every character sheet." I know I would.

 

And try not to be too hard on the new guys. I think in many ways, the neophyte perspective allows us old guys a chance to look at stuff that we take for granted.

 

I'd ask why? On an initial build of Multiform all forms have the same number of points. If you buy a 150 pt Form, then double that you have 2 150 point forms... If you put more points into Multiform I don't see why it should suddenly veer from how it works on the initial build. That, to me, looks like a double standard of Design vs Gameplay. I don't like having to worry about the "If I don't take it at the start the mechanics change" thing. It's bad news, always.

 

Here is a simple question:

 

Does anyone truley thing that adding a Stop Sign to the power is a bad idea?

 

Personally, I think all the STOP and ! signs should be removed.

[Starlight]

Re: Multiform

 

Oh dear. I may be misinterpreting your comments but I'm getting the impression, Ghost-Angel, that you have taken my post as a criticism either of the HERO system or the posters in this thread; or both. I assure you that is not the case. I adore the HERO system. I've never found any better system for building the kind of game I enjoy playing in and running. Neither do I have anything but respect for those who have contributed to this thread.

 

What I intended to convey by my tongue-in-cheek remark about being blinded by competence was that those who have achieved mastery can find it very difficult to put themselves in the shoes of someone unskilled. What is simplicity to the master can be an impenetrable mystery to the novice. And since it seems so simple the master often finds it perplexing that the student cannot understand.

 

Your comments express succinctly the reason why I love the HERO system. Further, I agree unreservedly that once you grasp the philosophy of HERO you can, in your words, 'utilize that potential to maximum effect to create, break, not break, fondle, carress, mangle, bend, and glorify our games to create anything and everything we want.'.

 

I submit, however, the same cannot be said of a bunch of thirteen year old kids who have been given, bought, or more than likely downloaded via p2p, a copy of 5ER. Kids who have never played any RPG before or who have played only CRPG's or MMORPG's where the rules are hardcoded. And have no mentor to guide them in the use of the HERO system. If you expect those kids to exercise the same judgement that you would do - you must know much smarter and more mature kids than I.

 

In the case outlined above I really don't find it that improbable that the situation outlined in my example might take place. And sadly, these days, it seems that the average attention span of a kid is measured in microseconds. A bad first experience with HERO can lose those kids as HERO players forever. Where as when they download a copy of D20 it's the rigidity of D20 compared to HERO that actually increases the chance of them achieving a playable first game.

 

You correctly say 'Hero is a System. It is NOT a game. It tells you how to MAKE a game.'. I agree. That was the point I was trying, albeit clearly not with the clarity I desired, to make. That it is this very point which makes it wonderfully flexible for experienced GM's and players, and very hard to play without that experience.

 

I might well come across in my posts as a neophyte. I'm not. I've been playing and running games since the very first little grey book. What I tried to do in my initial comments and example was show HERO through the eyes of a neophyte. To give a fresh perspective on the stuff you, and I, do take for granted.

[pinecone]

Re: Multiform

 

I'm seeing your point, but a stop sign says I need permission to use it....I don't think it even rates a "!" but that would be the most I'd agree with.

 

I gotta say over the years I've seen a Lot of "This is Wack!" threads, and most of the time the ones who are totally in agreement have never tried it or seen it.(in play)

 

At least give it a look before going off on it....I'm just say'in.....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

I didn't take any of your posts as criticism of any posters. As for criticizing the system - go ahead.

 

As for most of the rest of your post - I wouldn't limit any of those comments to the younger generation (I'd say kids, but I know too many 30- and 40-something children).

 

I personally think your portrayal of a neophyte Hero player is dead wrong in many cases, and dead right in many others. And that makes it utterly irrelevant to be honest.

 

Two people will read the same book and come away with two different impressions of it.

Two people will pick up the same game book or game system and come away with two different thoughts on it and ways to play it.

 

This is good. This is the point.

 

I've seen people who've never roleplayed before pick up Hero and get it (I think we even had a new poster recently who was just getting into Gaming and chose Hero and while the task looked daunting seemed to grok it fairly well). And I've seen long time gamers pick up Hero and just not get it at all, and leave.

 

And how long anyone has been gaming is irrelevant, I've left groups of people who'd been gaming much longer than myself and still didn't seem to understand Roleplaying beyond killing fictional monsters and counting fictional gold treasure hordes - but hey, they were having fun so I left them to it.

 

And I really don't take anything for granted. I just don't see as many things wrong as other people. There's a difference.

[CTaylor]

Re: Multiform

 

The cost of multiform tends to make the individual forms less powerful than an overall hero, which means that you can be a bunch of different weaker heroes than everyone else, and one at a time to boot. It works for a lot of concepts (like the guy that can become lots of different kinds of animals), and is a great power. It's not nearly as powerful as you fear, in my experience.

 

Player: Okay, so with this Multiform thingie I'll make a character Joe Normal and spend all 350pts on Multiform. That will give me a 1750pt alternative form.

 

There's a basic flaw here: you are trying to build a character in excess of the points allotted to a character by the GM. 350 means 350 for all the forms you have, not just the main form.