Lower Water and Part Water

[CTaylor]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

That's more a "walk through water easily" power, not a part or lower water power.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

That's more a "walk through water easily" power' date=' not a part or lower water power.[/quote']

 

Well, the idea of the system is to look at the effect you want.

 

The effect is to allow people to walk through a body of water easily. We have identified, what you agree, is a good set of mechanics that will allow that to occur. Everything else is SFX.

 

If the SFX for walking through that body of water easily is a parting of the waves, then that's what we'll have. If the SFX are a small fleet of submersibles that constantly ferry people to and fro with no delay or frustration, then we go with that.

 

One of the beauties of the Hero System. Don't sweat the small stuff....

 

 

 

Doc

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

I like the tunneling idea myself. Just add an "Affects Porous" advantage to it

[CTaylor]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Well, the idea of the system is to look at the effect you want.

 

Yes, but you're not getting the effect you want. The effect you want is the water not being there, not "passing through safely." The idea behind lowering water isn't merely to cross, it's to have the water not be present, thus revealing things hidden under it, preventing the water from pouring through an area, stopping aquatic creatures, etc. Part Water isn't necessarily about passing through either, although it could be.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Yes' date=' but you're not getting the effect you want. The effect you want is the water not being there, not "passing through safely." The idea behind lowering water isn't merely to cross, it's to have the water not be present, thus revealing things hidden under it, preventing the water from pouring through an area, stopping aquatic creatures, etc. Part Water isn't necessarily about passing through either, although it could be.[/quote']

 

Just addressing things as the OP put forward.

 

I'd allow some of that as part of the SFX. If there were other effects then I'd get them into the build, but for the classic I'm Moses effect, then this meets the requirements...

 

Doc

[CTaylor]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Well I understand what you're saying, I'd just point out that the Moses part water collapsed on and drown a huge army of soldiers, which that build wouldn't do.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Course it would. If the army are half way across the water (read safely cross through water hazard) when I stop using the power then suddenly they are no longer safe in the water and, considering they are in armour they are probably going to be using the drowning rules pretty toute suite.

 

 

 

Doc

[CTaylor]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

I guess I see a difference between "the ground got mushy all the sudden and tons of water crashed on top of them" and "they have to hold their breath now."

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

See, now you are getting caught up in physics and neither comic books or miracles should be dirtying their hands wit physics.

 

If you want the closing waters to have a physical attack side to it then you're also going to want an attack that has a pre-requisite of having parted waters and be limited by the amount of water that is present.

 

 

Doc

[Vondy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

I guess I see a difference between "the ground got mushy all the sudden and tons of water crashed on top of them" and "they have to hold their breath now."

 

In both cases the end is the same - it proves lethal. Whether they drowned in water or mud, or were crushed by tons of water is incidental. They're still dead as a result of the event. No one will be doing an autopsy on them trying to figure out the technical form of death. It doesn't need a precise mechanical model. "Wow - the sea fell in on them!" is explanation enough.

[Tonio]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Well, I think CTaylor does have a very good point. Parting water really does significantly more than simply allowing people to move normally through the area and having them be able to breathe in there. It also reduces PER penalties (which should be worse in water, tho I dunno whether they're so, per RAW), it prevents characters who can't breathe air to breathe normally in there, it causes characters with a Dependence on Water to suffer, and those with a Suceptibility to Water not to, etc.

 

For some games, though, the Life Support + Environmental Movement build could work, especially with some sort of UBO Penalty Skill Levels to PER, and the rest dealt with as SFX. Specifically games where significant non-air-breathers are rare or nonexistent and Dependence and Suceptibility to Water are rare or nonexistent. How often you encounter such a game is another issue, tho. =)

[SteveZilla]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Course it would. If the army are half way across the water (read safely cross through water hazard) when I stop using the power then suddenly they are no longer safe in the water and' date=' considering they are in armour they are probably going to be using the drowning rules pretty toute suite.[/quote']

 

It'd have to be something different than UBO, since the person receiving the power controls it. And I don't think they would willingly shut if off on themselves.

[Paragon]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Honestly, I suspect anything that does not really base what its doing on manipulating the water simply isn't going to work here; I'd have to deal with way more special cases coming up in use to be comfortable doing the sort of backdoor approach with the more common effects.

 

Anyone got the FH Grimoire and can describe in general the tact Steve Long took with this?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

I think that anything based on manipulating the water is going to have just as many problems, it's not the way the system is designed to work.

 

Doc

[Paragon]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

I think that anything based on manipulating the water is going to have just as many problems, it's not the way the system is designed to work.

 

Doc

 

Sometimes the cause and the effect are too interrelated to separate that way. If that wasn't true, I don't think effects like Change Environment, Transform and Telekinesis would exist at all, since to one degree or another, they're all based on what you're doing, not just what it does.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

I think that anything based on manipulating the water is going to have just as many problems' date=' it's not the way the system is designed to work.[/quote']

 

Well, characters don't opperate in a vacume (unless in deep space ), so while the environment and it's manipulation don't often come up, I do think that the environment is part of the system.

 

There are several things in the system that are defined as affecting water already (TK w/ Affects Porous, and Force Wall come to mind). Why not use them?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Well, characters don't opperate in a vacume (unless in deep space ), so while the environment and it's manipulation don't often come up, I do think that the environment is part of the system.

 

There are several things in the system that are defined as affecting water already (TK w/ Affects Porous, and Force Wall come to mind). Why not use them?

 

I think the problem is that once you really get into having game effects that are directly tied through their special effects then you get into the potential long-drawn out conversations bout how that should work. Real world physics - or real world cod physics - detracts from gameplay.

 

For instance, in the part water scenario. If you are talking about creating a path across the Mississippi, how much water are you holding back? Are you really creating a path, or a dam? How much collateral flooding does that cause and how quickly? Do you get a nice path across the bottom or are you going to be wading in mud? In sand? Do you strand the fish in the path created? Do you get to walk in and out of the water wall?

 

Etc Etc Etc

 

Now if it is defined in game terms, then you know exactly what benefits you are looking for. Hero is built on deciding what benefit you are looking for and finding a convenient mechanic to provide that benefit. It is nice and clear. If you begin to get into environmental details and physics then it all gets pretty messy pretty quickly.

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

It'd have to be something different than UBO' date=' since the person receiving the power controls it. And I don't think they would willingly shut if off on themselves.[/quote']

 

Good one. This probably makes me veer toward an application of the Gate power in Teleport - visible, takes time, only to cross bodies of water (Ithink the mass would be megascaled to taste).

 

 

Doc

[Paragon]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Well, characters don't opperate in a vacume (unless in deep space ), so while the environment and it's manipulation don't often come up, I do think that the environment is part of the system.

 

There are several things in the system that are defined as affecting water already (TK w/ Affects Porous, and Force Wall come to mind). Why not use them?

 

I did; I just wasn't entirely satisfied with the result. Let me post what I ended up doing; perhaps it'll help to understand where I'm coming from.

 

(Apologies for some oddities of format; this is a combination of Metacreator output and the summary I did for my campaign document; some of it will look a little odd because of features of the magic system and/or my houserules, but it'll at least show the tact I took).

 

Spell Name Color Roll Duration Mana AP/Tier RP

Lower Water Grey -10 Instant 10 105/7 26

Construction Summary: Transform 2d6 (Major, Single Object); Area Of Effect (Radius): 64" Radius / 12097 Hexes, +2½; All Or Nothing: -½; Limited Target (Water Only) (Very Limited): -1; No Range: -½; Gestures (Activate Power Only): -¼; Incantation (Activate Power Only): -¼; Requires A Skill Roll: -½.

This spell acts to lower the water from the point the caster touches out to 64" in all directions. The water is not destroyed, but is temporarily sublimated into the surrounding air (it will feel very muggy for some distance around) and will return at a rate of about 10% a day until all of it has come back.

 

Spell Name Color Roll Duration Mana AP/Tier RP

Part Water Grey -6 1 minute 6 65/4 14

Construction Summary: Telekinesis(2 STR); Affects Porous: +10; Area Of Effect (Line): 256" Long / 256 Hexes, +2; Deep Line (Up to 64" deep): +1½; Reduced Mana: +½; Only works on water or objects on or in it: -1; Limited Power: Only to hold waters apart: -1½; Gestures (Activate Power Only): -¼; Incantation (Activate Power Only): -¼; Requires A Skill Roll: -½.

This spell acts to part and keep apart water in a line 256" (512 meters) long and up to 64" (128 meters) deep for two minutes.

 

Part Water works, but I probably undercharged for the TK Strength needed (by internal logic, I probably should have charged for the Strength needed to lift a man-sized volumn of water (not a hex sized, as that should be covered by the area) and that would have bloated the active point cost to uselessness) and its pretty convoluted; Lower Water was a brute force use of the Big Hammer of Transform and as such I can't help but think there ought to be a better way.

 

But its possible I'm just trying to produce effects that are by their nature near the weak spots in the Hero mechanics.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Good one. This probably makes me veer toward an application of the Gate power in Teleport - visible' date=' takes time, only to cross bodies of water (I think the mass would be Megascaled to taste).[/quote']

 

Mass cannot be Megascaled. Megascale only applies to linear measurements (distances, lengths, areas, and volumes).\

 

I think it would also need Limitations like "Gate Distance = Distance Between Gates(-?)" because the "gate" doesn't shorten the distance, and "Objects In Gate Occupy Real Space(-1)" because attacks can be made against (and by) those in the "gate".

 

By using a Gate build, the water isn't being affected at all, right? It would continue to flow past the "gate" unhindered? If so, I'm not sure of the possibility (or ramifications) of someone attempting to enter/leave the gate by a route other than the ends.

[Qelan]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

I agree with what some people have basically said already, water in the game world is more of a special effect even though it has body. But even having body a person can pass through it at a reduce speed but without environmental and or life support powers it could be hazardous.

 

I would treat water the same way you treat the air in the game world. For some reason we can use change environment to create many atmospheric effects but think twice about using it to manipulate the water environment, what if this was a water world and it didn’t have any air? Would we feel that change environment couldn’t be used to manipulate the color, movement, or even inserting a foreign gas (oxygen)? Maybe making air pockets, or maybe I am just off my rocker again and I should have made that cup of coffee before I started reading the forums.

[Paragon]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Its the issue of degree involved; I'd use Change Environment to change the temperature, create currents, or otherwise manipulate the water within limits, but this seems beyond that; I'd have the same issues with creating true vacuums with it, for example.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

The only issue with creating a true vacuum would be how much game effect you planned on it having.

 

If you wanted to use it in ways that would be more aligned with NND or killing attacks then that's what you should use.

 

For complex stuff then you should possibly use a suite of powers for the suite of game effects you want to achieve. If that is expensive, well that's just the way it is...

 

 

 

Doc

[Paragon]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

The only issue with creating a true vacuum would be how much game effect you planned on it having.

 

If you wanted to use it in ways that would be more aligned with NND or killing attacks then that's what you should use.

 

For complex stuff then you should possibly use a suite of powers for the suite of game effects you want to achieve. If that is expensive, well that's just the way it is...

 

 

 

Doc

 

And with the latter, its the issue involved; the expense, complexity and active point bloat seems out of proportion to the benefit, but that's what seems like its needed to cover all the effects.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

And with the latter' date=' its the issue involved; the expense, complexity and active point bloat seems out of proportion to the benefit, but that's what seems like its needed to cover all the effects.[/quote']

 

You aren't taking the system at its word. Why is it that people are happy to say that if a limitation does not limit then its worth no points but have real difficulty in saying that if an advantage or effect has no real benefit then it is worth no points?

 

If you insist on statting up every minor aspect of a power, especially a complex environmental one, then expect it to get complex. Personally I look for the major game effect and then allow the rest through on SFX, unless the player wants to make significant game effect through it.

 

 

Doc