Lower Water and Part Water

[Paragon]

In my ongoing conversion of the RuneQuest color magic spells I have (some of which are derived from old D&D spells) I'm going through Grey (water) Magic, and I've hit a couple more troublesome cases. I came up with solutions for both, but I don't really like either of them, and one was particularly dodgy.

 

The two effects are:

 

1. Lower Water: This essentially lowers the water level in a body of water over a reasonably large area (about 160m radius) for a while. I did something with Transform, but I'm not in love with how it came out.

 

2. Part Water: This simply slides the water to the side (the Red Sea effect) for a while, leaving a 2-4 meter wide, 160 meter long and up to 160 meter deep trench. I did something with Limited Telekinesis in area with the Affects Porous adder, and its a bit better than the above, but I'm still not entirely thrilled with it.

 

Thoughs and suggestions?

[Steve Long]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

There's a Part Water spell in The Fantasy Hero Grimoire, and from it you could probably extrapolate a spell to lower water. There's also a spell to cause flooding; take a look at that as well.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Change Environment FTW!

[Paragon]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Change Environment FTW!

 

Its not clear what you'd base the cost on, even if usable; it doesn't provide any of the standard modifications, as such.

[CTaylor]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

You can use telekinesis or change environment, TK is expensive because it takes 30 STR to move a hex of water, Change Environment is a bit of a hand wave but if you GM will let you, you might be able to use it: the environment being changed is the water level, the amount changed is the area of effect. By all means check The Fantasy Grimoire out, it's a great resource. I built both spells for my Water spells in my Codex, but they were spendy.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Suppress Water, Any Water Power One At A Time, AoE (Radius)

 

Suppress Water, Any Water Power One At A Time, Continuous, Uncontrolled, AoE (Line)

[CTaylor]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Since you have to target the active points of a power to use suppress I don't see how suppress would work in this instance. What are you suppressing? The existence of water?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Well, it was kind of an out of left field idea.

 

I would probably calculate the Active Points of the water based on the STR necessary to lift it... I THINK this should still come out cheaper than TK...

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Force Wall is a possibility for 'part water'. I dunno; this is one that I've muddled with for a while. I've done FW for part water and the like, but I did use Change Environment for other 'lower water' sort of things.

[braincraft]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Well, it was kind of an out of left field idea.

 

I would probably calculate the Active Points of the water based on the STR necessary to lift it... I THINK this should still come out cheaper than TK...

 

How much BODY does a hex of water have?

[L. Marcus]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

. . . A lot! Someone care to calculate how much energy it takes to vaporize about seven tons of water?

[CTaylor]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Since it's a liquid, you'd have to have some method of preventing additional water from filling the void as well.

[braincraft]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Since it's a liquid' date=' you'd have to have some method of preventing additional water from filling the void as well.[/quote']

 

But then once you stop paying END for the Suppress, the water instantaneously reappears, causing either a small explosion as the pressure in that hex increases, or a large one as the reappearing hydrogen molecules overlap the ones already flowing in, causing a massive fusion chain reaction that consumes the Earth's atmosphere and much of its surface.

 

I think it's best to assume the Suppress is inertia-less.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Is it a matter of looking at what you are trying to achieve?

 

In the parting of water you have the main thought of providing a path so that people can cross without the problem of having to breathe under water?

 

One way might be to use tunnelling or teleport (with the gate advantage) that would allow people to walk from one side of the river to the other without drowning or getting wet. Special effects, the water being parted.

 

Obviously there could be other applications - such as preventing the passage of boats, fish etc but you could either rule that SFX or add in some other stuff.

 

Lower water is more difficult - I guess it comes down to what you are looking to achieve - and thus highlight the big difference in philosophy behind the rulesets.

 

 

Doc

[Paragon]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

You can use telekinesis or change environment' date=' TK is expensive because it takes 30 STR to move a hex of water, Change Environment is a bit of a hand wave but if you GM will let you, you might be able to use it: the environment being changed is the water level, the amount changed is the area of effect. By all means check [i']The Fantasy Grimoire[/i] out, it's a great resource. I built both spells for my Water spells in my Codex, but they were spendy.

 

I did the telekinesis approach, and assumed you didn't need much Strength because I'm buying it area anyway (I know this is always a muddy topic when applying area to TK; you clearly don't need the full strength any more than you need enough damage with an EB to harm every part of the area, but exactly how much is questionable, and I was probably overly generous in my assumption; I probably should have used a man-size mass of water as the Strength value (not a full hex though, or there's no difference between a 1-hex TK and a targeted one in its effect, and that doesn't seem right).

 

I was trying to avoid the handwave aspect with CE, because it looked like it'd set a precedent I didn't want to do.

[Paragon]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Force Wall is a possibility for 'part water'. I dunno; this is one that I've muddled with for a while. I've done FW for part water and the like' date=' but I [i']did[/i] use Change Environment for other 'lower water' sort of things.

 

I looked at Force Wall, but it wouldn't really work since someone could still penetrate the water if they wanted to (I suppose I could have Limited it, but at that point it really starts to look like I'm using the wrong tool for the job when its got almost none of the properties of the original power).

[Paragon]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Is it a matter of looking at what you are trying to achieve?

 

In the parting of water you have the main thought of providing a path so that people can cross without the problem of having to breathe under water?

 

 

Or to swim, or really deal with any of the accompanying problems.

 

 

One way might be to use tunnelling or teleport (with the gate advantage) that would allow people to walk from one side of the river to the other without drowning or getting wet. Special effects, the water being parted.

 

 

Tunnelling has the speed issues that individuals may have vastly different speeds, and the problem with Teleport is there's nothing stopping someone chasing you in and, say, getting in a fight with you in the middle of the trench. Its instantaneous time also is a little problematic.

 

 

Obviously there could be other applications - such as preventing the passage of boats, fish etc but you could either rule that SFX or add in some other stuff.

 

Well, that was it--by the time I did all that it was getting clumsy, and there was a bit too much of it for me to feel comfortable just handwaving off special effects.

 

 

 

Lower water is more difficult - I guess it comes down to what you are looking to achieve - and thus highlight the big difference in philosophy behind the rulesets.

 

 

Doc

 

 

The primary purpose is to reveal submerged portions of the area; sometimes it has some of the effect of Part Water, but it also allows one to, for example, examine or explore the previously-sunken ruins on the bottom of the lake, or search for the things that spilled from a boat on the river. Its a somewhat specialized spell, but the magic system involved is like that (Grey Magic is all about the water and related issues).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Tunnelling has the speed issues that individuals may have vastly different speeds' date=' and the problem with Teleport is there's nothing stopping someone chasing you in and, say, getting in a fight with you in the middle of the trench. Its instantaneous time also is a little problematic.[/quote']

 

There is no need for teleport to be instantaneous, it is entirely possible to limit it beyond its default and to make that travel time dependent on travellers velocities.

 

As for the tunnelling - with the right limitations and advantages you can create a tunnel that remains viable for as long as it is maintained. The speed thing would simply dictate how long it took to create that tunnel.

 

Didn't you want someone to be able to follow you in? My thoughts were to part the water like Moses...

 

If it simply for you then it is Life Support with nifty special effects....

 

 

Doc

[Armitage]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

How much BODY does a hex of water have?

 

According to The Ultimate Brick, 1 cubic hex of water has 0 DEF, 6 BODY, weighs 6921 kg (7169 kg for salt water), and requires 41 STR to lift.

[Vondy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

I'm Moses! Contact: God, Extremely Useful Skills And Resources, Very Good Relationship, Extensive Contacts Of His Own 20-

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Obviously there could be other applications - such as preventing the passage of boats' date=' fish etc but you could either rule that SFX or add in some other stuff. [/quote']

 

Well, that was it--by the time I did all that it was getting clumsy, and there was a bit too much of it for me to feel comfortable just handwaving off special effects.

 

I'd be careful about worrying too much about this stuff. When you starttrying to pull in real effects then you get tied up in knots - it is a special effect and if the player wants to use it creatively then explain the Power Skill to them.

 

For example - Armitage provided a very good statistic for us on weight of water but if you part the waters of a river then on one side the water will run away and on the other it will begin to rise in height - you have just built a dam. On the upstream side of your parting it will get heavier by the minute until you are causing a flood when it breaches its banks.

 

Too much detail for a heroic flavour - you can hand wave a lot to get the effect you are looking for.

 

Doc

[Paragon]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

There is no need for teleport to be instantaneous, it is entirely possible to limit it beyond its default and to make that travel time dependent on travellers velocities.

 

 

True. It just seems, well, backwards given there's other implications.

 

 

As for the tunnelling - with the right limitations and advantages you can create a tunnel that remains viable for as long as it is maintained. The speed thing would simply dictate how long it took to create that tunnel.

 

 

I'm not actually quite clear that "tunnelling" through water is really a legitimate use of the power, honestly. I can see where you're coming from on that, but it seems stretching it.

 

 

Didn't you want someone to be able to follow you in? My thoughts were to part the water like Moses...

 

 

Yes, that's pretty much what the effect was based on.

[Paragon]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

I'd be careful about worrying too much about this stuff. When you starttrying to pull in real effects then you get tied up in knots - it is a special effect and if the player wants to use it creatively then explain the Power Skill to them.

 

 

I can do some of this by addressing the fact its magic, but I still want the build to address some of the more basic issues, because I have to assume it will be used somewhat creatively, given that its a spell that has a general rather than purely mechanical effect. The water piling up and flowing away isn't an issue, but the ability to get in fights in the trench and do things like use it for cover of a sort I need to consider. That's why I'd like your Tunnelling rather than Teleport solution the better of the two if I wasn't a little dubious about it working on water (unlike earth and rock, this makes it do something it normally doesn't do); it defines the process more closely.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Ooh! Life Support, Area Effect (Line), UBO.

 

That allows anyone in the area effect to walk across the river lake etc without having to worry about breathing.

 

I reckon we can do the dry thing and running, flying etc rather than swimming as part of the SFX.

 

 

Doc

[Tonio]

Re: Lower Water and Part Water

 

Ooh! Life Support, Area Effect (Line), UBO.

 

That allows anyone in the area effect to walk across the river lake etc without having to worry about breathing.

 

I reckon we can do the dry thing and running, flying etc rather than swimming as part of the SFX.

 

 

Doc

 

Add the Environmental Movement thing, and I think you're done. (You know, the thing that lets you move across/through different environments w/o any penalties?)

 

Edit:

 

Ok, to avoid the "Advantages and Limitations on Talents is evil" issue, re-build it using the 2 3-pt PSLs to reduce DCV and DC penalties.

Also, make the AoE Nonselective to reflect that fact that you can't really pick who's gonna be aftected? Not sure about this, though.