Knockback "realistic"?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

By the way: "No Knockback (-1/4)" is really chaotic in pricing. If you have 2d6 KA (str inluded), you will more or less never see any KB at all (max body 12, minus 3d6) and get a handful of points for not being able to do so at all. If you have a 15d6 EB on the other hand, you will rob yourself of about 5-10" knockback on any hit. Not doing knockback is totally rare (requires you to roll no sixes but 3+ ones on 15 dice, PLUS rolling 12 on the two KB dice), but you only get a -1/4 limitation for it. Now for 30d6, you lose a major damage factor (you will usually do about an extra 23 extra dice of KB damage), and it's still only 1/4. In fact, on infinite dice, you basically get a free second hit in.

Very rarely the Hero Limitation/Advantage System does fail at this, since usually a disadvantage gets bigger if the power gets bigger too.

 

Well, there is the fact that against smaller than human targets, the Knockback amount is increased -- unless it does none at all from having the Limitation. It also can't be used to press a switch or set off a pressure-sensitive trap from a distance.

 

Knockback damage isn't guaranteed, however. What if the one that was knocked back is flying well above all buildings? Or is in space?

 

Since infinite dice cost infinite points, even a -1/4 limitation reduces the cost an infinite amount. But perhaps the value of the No Knockback Limitation, and the (possible) fact that Knockback becomes obscene at higher levels needs to be addressed in 6th ed.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

And neither of their attacks were usually missing either.

 

It could be argued that since both knew how hard the other was hitting they were both Bracing for Knockback!

 

Or that they're bodies are so dense they resist being knocked back automaticaly (i.e., Knockback Resistance)?

[Oruncrest]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

And neither of their attacks were usually missing either.

 

It could be argued that since both knew how hard the other was hitting they were both Bracing for Knockback!

Don't forget, the fight started in an underwater base. I don't think either combatant (or any of the spectators, for that matter) would've been keen on seeing oodles of knockback.

 

Also, I remember an Early '80s story where Superman fought a Magneto-wannabe. They were knockiing each other back into other states (territories when they got to Canada) until they got to the North Pole, where the Earths Magnetic field neutralized the Magneto-wannabes Magnetic powers.

[nexus]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

example: get a knockback of 10", but a solid wall of some sort is 3" behind you, instead of taking damage as for traveling 3", you'd take damage for 7" because the energy that would have carried you that far doesn't break through the wall, thus you get the ouchies.

 

That's how I've been running knockback damage too.

 

Overall, I think knockback is fine. It emulates supers/comic fights pretty well. I felt it was a bit too common in Hero (I like MSH class "Slam" results) so I made some House rules for taste but the basic rules are okay as they are.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

...

 

example: get a knockback of 10", but a solid wall of some sort is 3" behind you, instead of taking damage as for travelling 3", you'd take damage for 7" because the energy that would have carried you that far doesn't break through the wall, thus you get the ouchies.

 

Huh?

 

That seems to be implying that Air-Resistance is reducing the damage which makes no sense at all on a personal scale.

 

If a fight was taking place underwater I could see the density of water slowing down someone faster (and I'm pretty sure the rules already cover this).

[nexus]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

Huh?

 

That seems to be implying that Air-Resistance is reducing the damage which makes no sense at all on a personal scale.

 

If a fight was taking place underwater I could see the density of water slowing down someone faster (and I'm pretty sure the rules already cover this).

 

Not just air resistance, there are some forces working to slow the character because, eventually they stop. You can say the skid to stop against ground but even in that character or object isn't moving as fast as they were however hexes ago. They don't move exactly the number of hexes at full speed or instantaneously then stop dead.

 

It's not "realistic" either but OTOH, if you get mega scale knock back and your character should have flown for 10 miles. "realistically" they're move much faster than the previous character but take no additional damage for it. It's a taste thing. For me it made more narrative "sense" but I'm making no claim its any more accurate than the base rules. Or for a less rules iffy example. Double or more Knockback doesn't increase knockback damage (at least IIRC).

 

"realistic" knock back would be probably built as some complicated "Flight/Running Usable against others" type of construct so it would work according to the Hero movement rules but that would be adding more complexity for limited benefit, IMO.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

Well, I'm not trying to break out the physics textbook.

I'm just going with the thread's title and a very simple concept.

 

An object at rest stays at rest unless force is applied.

An object in motion stays in motion unless force is applied.

 

I'm not saying that air-resistance shouldn't have some effect (like slowing down long distance throw/KB effect) but it shouldn't come in to play on the personal combat scale.

 

just my opinion though.

[nexus]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

Well, in many situations, Knockback isn't "realistic" anyway. It's comic book physics so the "best" to represent it up to the individual, IMO. I've been in games where knockback does no damage at all. It's all impressive visuals and provides some tactical options.

[Warp9]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

Except for the fact that in most Superman stories from the 1950s and 1960s' date=' when Superman was actually fighting opponents that he could actually engage in true combat with (mostly rogue Kryptonians), his attacks rarely did knockback. Heck, even in a Curt Swan drawn L.E.G.I.O.N. '90-something Annual, and Superman was fighting Lar Gand and they weren't doing knockback.[/quote']

I liked a lot of the art in that Superman vs Lar Gand book, but I thought there should have been some knock back in there.

 

In that comic you had two characters with vast strength hitting each other. But the result looked more like two ordinary humans going at it. It just seemed wrong to me.

[Warp9]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

Or that they're bodies are so dense they resist being knocked back automaticaly (i.e.' date=' Knockback Resistance)?[/quote']

 

 

Maybe. But that would be a lot of mass.

 

I've never seen any indication that Superman was supposed to have the mass of an aircraft carrier.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

It's not "realistic" either but OTOH' date=' if you get mega scale knock back and your character should have flown for 10 miles. "realistically" they're move much faster than the previous character but take no additional damage for it. It's a taste thing. For me it made more narrative "sense" but I'm making no claim its any more accurate than the base rules. Or for a less rules iffy example. Double or more Knockback doesn't increase knockback damage (at least IIRC).[/quote']

 

The Advantage Double Knockback does cause more damage. Extra Knockback due to being smaller than normal (like being Shrunk) only causes extra distance, not extra damage.

 

IMO Megascaled Knockback and Megascaled Throwing are abominations to game balance. The RaW effectively deny the use of Flight w/ UAA & Megascale, why should they allow an end-run around that by way of Knockback or Throwing?

[nexus]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

The Advantage Double Knockback does cause more damage. Extra Knockback due to being smaller than normal (like being Shrunk) only causes extra distance, not extra damage.

 

You're right. I got those confused. My bad but I think the point stands that knockback isn't particularly realistic.

[Silbeg]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

In my own opinion (and in my own campaigns) attacks which do not impart kinetic energy to the target (lasers' date=' heat rays, etc.) did not do knockback. Killing attacks that rely on making small holes in the target (arrows, cmall-caliber bullets, stillettos, piercing swords: epee, foil, rapier for example) would do less KB than a normal attack.[/quote']

 

There is an easy solution to this (and an obvious one in the Hero System). Certain special effects should probably have the "No Knockback" limitation on them (a typical example would be lasers). This is definitely more of an issue with normal damage attacks, as Killing Attacks will tend to do a bit less KB in any case (due to the extra die).

 

However, I would definitely not mess with the RAW, since I think they are ok, especially for genres that actually use KB (such as Superheroic).

[Warp9]

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

 

It's not "realistic" either but OTOH' date=' if you get mega scale knock back and your character should have flown for 10 miles. "realistically" they're move much faster than the previous character but take no additional damage for it.[/quote']

That is a very good example of why I dislike "mega-scale."

 

Mega-scale isn't the only option; there are other methods to get high levels of knockback.

 

We can start by assuming an exponential scale for DCs. If we then apply that exponential logic to knockback, then a high DC attack would knock somebody into orbit. And we'd get consistant results; more knockback = more damage.

 

Instead (with Mega-scale) we have a situation where you might take more damage from 15" of normal knock back than you would from 10 miles of mega-scale knockback.