Penalty skill lvl question

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Well, I disagree on the idea that there should be a Limitation on SLs after the first few.

 

Buy only as many as you think will be beneficial to you.

 

I will note that the biggest difference between 2 Point CSLs and 1.5 Point PSLs is that the CSLs will ALWAYS apply to the Sweep maneuver, even if you're not overcoming penalties - which means if you buy 4 Levels to offset hitting three targets, but only go after two you have a net gain of +2 OCV.

 

However arbitrary, of whatever the reason, PSLs aren't (by the book) allowed to be purchased to offset Combat Maneuver Penalties. Personally, I don't have an issue with this - even in the case of Sweep. They're too cheap, IMO, for that use.

 

Actually, most skill levels have limitations. An 8 point all combat level is really just a 10 point overall level "only for combat".

 

Why should anyone buy levels that only offset the Sweep penalty? 5 points (minimum that can be limited) requires -1.5 in limitations to get down to 2 points. I'd rather have a 2 point level that can be applied whenever I sweep than a 2 point level that can only offset penalties when I sweep. Maybe I want to sweep less because my opponent is higher DCV. Maybe I only want to hit two targets, and only once, because they're not that tough. Perhaps I'm low on END. There are lots of cases where I would not automatically Sweep as many attacks as possible to use all the penalty levels.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Actually, most skill levels have limitations. An 8 point all combat level is really just a 10 point overall level "only for combat".

 

Why should anyone buy levels that only offset the Sweep penalty? 5 points (minimum that can be limited) requires -1.5 in limitations to get down to 2 points. I'd rather have a 2 point level that can be applied whenever I sweep than a 2 point level that can only offset penalties when I sweep. Maybe I want to sweep less because my opponent is higher DCV. Maybe I only want to hit two targets, and only once, because they're not that tough. Perhaps I'm low on END. There are lots of cases where I would not automatically Sweep as many attacks as possible to use all the penalty levels.

In my last combat with this character, sweeping caused her to burn STUN as END because every swept attack burned 5 or more out of 36 total END.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Actually, most skill levels have limitations. An 8 point all combat level is really just a 10 point overall level "only for combat".

 

Why should anyone buy levels that only offset the Sweep penalty? 5 points (minimum that can be limited) requires -1.5 in limitations to get down to 2 points. I'd rather have a 2 point level that can be applied whenever I sweep than a 2 point level that can only offset penalties when I sweep. Maybe I want to sweep less because my opponent is higher DCV. Maybe I only want to hit two targets, and only once, because they're not that tough. Perhaps I'm low on END. There are lots of cases where I would not automatically Sweep as many attacks as possible to use all the penalty levels.

 

I will point out that in the case of Skill Levels just to offset Sweep, they would be 1.5 Penalty Skill Levels, which is a savings of 1pt for 2lvls.

 

At 4 Sweep PSLs you've saved 2pts. The cost of another standard CSL for Sweep. Which means you've offset penalties for 3 targets and have a net +1 OCV for the same cost of 2ptCSLs that only offset 3 targets, but at the advantage of a net OCV gain for less than 3 targets.

 

There is a difference between a PSL and a CSL and there is a cost difference.

 

It could be said that a 5pt Combat Skill Level with "Only For One Maneuver" is -1.5 and "Only To Offset Penalties Accrued" another -3/4 as you can no longer always apply that CSL. Thus you have a Limited 5pt Hand-To-Hand CSL that costs the same as a 1.5 Penalty Skill Level.

[Paragon]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I'm not so sure the multiple attack bonus for Sweep is off the table for Penalty skill levels, given that a couple of the talents seem to be constructed in part using that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I'm not so sure the multiple attack bonus for Sweep is off the table for Penalty skill levels' date=' given that a couple of the talents seem to be constructed in part using that.[/quote']

 

By the book it's as explicit as you can get without saying "And Sweep Is Disallowed"

 

No Talent in any of the books that I'm aware of (admittedly I did not check every Talent in all the published books) uses Penalty Skills Levels vs Sweep to do anything. If you know of one, please share.

[Spidey88]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

My current Champions character, who has six arms, has several OCV levels with Sweep (perfectly legal according to Ultimate Skill). I gave those OCV levels the 0-pt. limitation "cannot exceed normal OCV", so that he's not better when using all his arms in concert - he can just use many of them all at once without any penalties. In this fashion, I can Sweep as much or as little as I like, with up to four arms at once, with no penalty or overall bonus to my attacks.

 

In essence, they act like PSLs when used this way. If someone were to ask for the same thing for their character in my campaign (and it's come up), I'm fine with them recording those levels as PSLs instead of OCV levels, as it seems a little more intuitive and easy to understand.

 

Why should anyone buy levels that only offset the Sweep penalty?

My character is super-agile, 6-armed, 8-eyed, and supposed to be an incredible multitasker.

 

I rest my case.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

My character is super-agile' date=' 6-armed, 8-eyed, and supposed to be an incredible multitasker.[/quote']Ditto; except for the "6-armed, 8-eyed" part.

 

With her base CV already at 14 (DEX 43) my GMs are understandably reluctant for her to simply add on more Combat Levels; especially considering she's already got 2 Overall Levels. PSLs vs. Sweep seemed like a reasonable alternative to buying more CSL's.

[Paragon]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

By the book it's as explicit as you can get without saying "And Sweep Is Disallowed"

 

No Talent in any of the books that I'm aware of (admittedly I did not check every Talent in all the published books) uses Penalty Skills Levels vs Sweep to do anything. If you know of one, please share.

 

I mis-stated that it was a talent, but Two-Weapon Fighting certainly seems to do something like that, as its composed of flawed Ambidexterity and _something_ that offsets the first -2 on extra attacks. It could, of course, be Limited regular levels with Limitations, but given the sweep penalty for multiple attacks doesn't seem any more or less a penalty than the one for aiming for locations (and in games using that, the extra attack doesn't seem any more severe for what it does than the latter) I'm hard pressed to see why it'd be off the table on balance grounds. You might run into issues if you're ignoring Penalty skill levels on level caps and not regular levels (but I think the former has problems anyway in that case) but per se, I'm not seeing why this is an inappropriate use for them if some of the other listed uses are legitimate.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I mis-stated that it was a talent' date=' but Two-Weapon Fighting certainly seems to do something like that, as its composed of flawed Ambidexterity and _something_ that offsets the first -2 on extra attacks. It could, of course, be Limited regular levels with Limitations, but given the sweep penalty for multiple attacks doesn't seem any more or less a penalty than the one for aiming for locations (and in games using that, the extra attack doesn't seem any more severe for what it does than the latter) I'm hard pressed to see why it'd be off the table on balance grounds. You might run into issues if you're ignoring Penalty skill levels on level caps and not regular levels (but I think the former has problems anyway in that case) but per se, I'm not seeing why this is an inappropriate use for them if some of the other listed uses are legitimate.[/quote']

 

sighs.

 

I don't know how else to day this, because I've said it multiple times:

 

I DON'T think it's an inappropriate use of PSLs.

It's just a BY THE BOOK ILLEGAL use of them.

 

And Two Weapon Fighting are definitely Limited 5pt Combat Skill Levels.

[Paragon]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

sighs.

 

I don't know how else to day this, because I've said it multiple times:

 

I DON'T think it's an inappropriate use of PSLs.

It's just a BY THE BOOK ILLEGAL use of them.

 

And Two Weapon Fighting are definitely Limited 5pt Combat Skill Levels.

 

How can you tell?

 

Seriously, I'm not trying to be snarky here, but I'm not seeing any discussion of how that was constructed, but I'm also working off pre-revised.

 

I'm just not sure what the functional difference here is between a variable level modifier for multiple attacks and a variable level modifier for aiming for hit locations; I understand why you think the former is a maneuver modifier, but I'm just not convinced that in practice that's the case from the data at hand.

[archermoo]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

How can you tell?

 

Seriously, I'm not trying to be snarky here, but I'm not seeing any discussion of how that was constructed, but I'm also working off pre-revised.

 

I'm just not sure what the functional difference here is between a variable level modifier for multiple attacks and a variable level modifier for aiming for hit locations; I understand why you think the former is a maneuver modifier, but I'm just not convinced that in practice that's the case from the data at hand.

 

Probably based off the the fact that Sweep is a Combat Maneuver wheras aiming at a hit location isn't.

 

Edit: Oh, and according to 5ER p73, Two Weapon Fighting is an improved maneuver that lets you combine either Rapid Fire or Sweep with a limited form of Ambidexterity.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

How can you tell?

 

Seriously, I'm not trying to be snarky here, but I'm not seeing any discussion of how that was constructed, but I'm also working off pre-revised.

 

I'm just not sure what the functional difference here is between a variable level modifier for multiple attacks and a variable level modifier for aiming for hit locations; I understand why you think the former is a maneuver modifier, but I'm just not convinced that in practice that's the case from the data at hand.

 

Actually... I take it back. It's pricing is manufactured wholesale with no "build" underneath it.

 

The hoops needed to jump through to create all that it does just really aren't worth building out completely. I believe Steve priced it to balance against similar capabilities.

[JmOz]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

For what it is worth

 

My characfter, the Marksman, has a MA package of ranged maunevers, he has one PSL to effect the negative modifiers some of the manuevers give (without checking I beleive I used the 2 point PSL for all MA manuevers, and it applies to 2 manuvers) saving a whole point...someone send me to Champions jail for it...please I need help (I'm in a bit of a snarky mood, my appoligies if my humor offends)

[Paragon]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Probably based off the the fact that Sweep is a Combat Maneuver wheras aiming at a hit location isn't.

 

Edit: Oh, and according to 5ER p73, Two Weapon Fighting is an improved maneuver that lets you combine either Rapid Fire or Sweep with a limited form of Ambidexterity.

 

Does it still offset the first -2?

 

As to it being a manuever--that seems to have more to do with making it a Full Phase action than anything to do with the penalty, to be honest; there's no way to do that sort of thing _other_ than define a maneuver.

[Paragon]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Actually... I take it back. It's pricing is manufactured wholesale with no "build" underneath it.

 

The hoops needed to jump through to create all that it does just really aren't worth building out completely. I believe Steve priced it to balance against similar capabilities.

 

Certainly possible.

 

A supporting element to your position is that he talks about its balance (or lack thereof) compared to simply buying levels with Sweep in Fantasy Hero (and doesn't refer to them as penalty levels); of course since he describes them as 2 point levels, I'm not sure the penalty levels would be any cheaper (if so, they couldn't be by much).

 

As an aside, my earlier comment made me wonder: for those who use CV or level caps, do you factor PSLs into that?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Yes, TWF still offsets the first -2 OCV to either maneuver.

 

The issue with "making it a build" is that what it does changes depending on whether or not the Optional Maneuvers it allows you to use are available to everyone else or not.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

As an aside' date=' my earlier comment made me wonder: for those who use CV or level caps, do you factor PSLs into that?[/quote']

 

I try to, yes. Though one group I play with puts them at a 2:1 ratio (2 PSLs are = to 1 CSL for the cap limit)

[archermoo]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Does it still offset the first -2?

 

As to it being a manuever--that seems to have more to do with making it a Full Phase action than anything to do with the penalty, to be honest; there's no way to do that sort of thing _other_ than define a maneuver.

 

Yes, among other things it offsets the first -2.

 

As to maneuvers I was only addressing your query as to why the -2OCV/opponent for sweep qualified as a maneuver and the minuses for targeting hit locations don't. It really is just as simple as Sweep and Rapid Fire are maneuvers and targeting hit locations isn't. If you feel that that isn't a reasonable distinction for the use of PSLs in your game, feel free to ignore it.

[Paragon]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I try to' date=' yes. Though one group I play with puts them at a 2:1 ratio (2 PSLs are = to 1 CSL for the cap limit)[/quote']

 

That was originally what I was going to do in my upcoming FH game, but got convinced (largely because of locational targeting) that it was probably a bad idea to rate it less than 1:1.

[archermoo]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

That was originally what I was going to do in my upcoming FH game' date=' but got convinced (largely because of locational targeting) that it was probably a bad idea to rate it less than 1:1.[/quote']

 

Yeah, hit location targeting can really improve the utility of KAs. If I've got at least 3 PSLs to offset targeting mods, I no longer have less than a x3 StunX using attacks that I can use them on.

[Paragon]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Yeah' date=' hit location targeting can really improve the utility of KAs. If I've got at least 3 PSLs to offset targeting mods, I no longer have less than a x3 StunX using attacks that I can use them on. [/quote']

 

The first couple of range offset levels are also pretty painless in pre-modern games, as for the most part, if you aren't at least the 5-7" away that make them pay for themselves, you most likely aren't going to pull out a bow or a crossbow anyway.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Range is only partially under your character's control, so PSLs are applicable, IMO. ....

 

How many times your character attacks with a Sweep is completely under your character's control, and IMO this means PSLs are not valid.

But whether your character makes a placed shot, and where, is also completely under your charatcer's control, but PSLs to offset Placed Shot Penalties are valid.

 

I agree that PSLs should be available for Sweep and Rapid Fire OCV penalties.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Yes, TWF still offsets the first -2 OCV to either maneuver.

 

The issue with "making it a build" is that what it does changes depending on whether or not the Optional Maneuvers it allows you to use are available to everyone else or not.

Would TWF be valid for characters who don't actually use weapons - i.e., martial artists who use empty hands?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Would TWF be valid for characters who don't actually use weapons - i.e.' date=' martial artists who use empty hands?[/quote']

 

If the GM says so.

 

It's specifically designed for, and can only be used when you have a weapon in each hand.

 

If you lose a weapon you lose the ability.

[Paragon]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

But whether your character makes a placed shot, and where, is also completely under your charatcer's control, but PSLs to offset Placed Shot Penalties are valid.

 

I agree that PSLs should be available for Sweep and Rapid Fire OCV penalties.

 

And honestly, range is enough under your control that its pretty trivial to get th e benefit out of the bottom two at least; there are a fair number of superheroic characters who can get that benefit just out of their own half-move.