Penalty skill lvl question

[Benzini]

How would you handle offsetting negative modifier on any combat maneuver? I know Penalty skill levels are not applicable, but with the new rules coming out, can you suggest a method? Maybe buying combat levels with a limitation: only to offset negative combat maneuvers? Or is that broken?

[Steve Long]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

This seems to be a discussion topic rather than a rules question; I've moved it to the Discussion board so anyone who wants to can offer suggestions.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

How would you handle offsetting negative modifier on any combat maneuver? I know Penalty skill levels are not applicable' date=' but with the new rules coming out, can you suggest a method? Maybe buying combat levels with a limitation: only to offset negative combat maneuvers? Or is that broken?[/quote']

 

Not sure what you are asking here.

 

You want, for example to throw a haymaker without the DCV penalty?

 

To me this is simply buying the relevant skill levels.

 

3pt skill levels are for a single manouevre. If you want to have a better OCV or DCV while using a manoeuvre then use skill levels of the right kind. 3pt levels for a single manoeuvre, 5pt levels for a tight group and 8pt levels for all combat.

 

 

Doc

[Tonio]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I know PSLs aren't applicable to maneuver OCV reductions, which makes complete sense, since you'll always get the full bonus from them. That is, they aren't limited compared to normal skill levels. It works with range penalties because your range penalty might be less than your PSLs, which means you "lose" some of the levels. If Offensive Strike always gives me a -2, then +2 with Offensive Strike will always be +2. The fact that it offsets the penalty doesn't make it limited, since it'll ALWAYS offset the penalty.

 

But what about Sweep? Shouldn't I be allowed to buy PSLs for Sweep? If I buy 8 PSLs with Sweep, but only attack twice, I'm "losing" +4.

[Tonio]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Not sure what you are asking here.

 

You want, for example to throw a haymaker without the DCV penalty?

 

To me this is simply buying the relevant skill levels.

 

3pt skill levels are for a single manouevre. If you want to have a better OCV or DCV while using a manoeuvre then use skill levels of the right kind. 3pt levels for a single manoeuvre, 5pt levels for a tight group and 8pt levels for all combat.

 

 

Doc

 

I'm pretty sure Benzini was asking how he could offset the OCV penalty on various maneuvers, since PSLs are not applicable to maneuver penalties. But yeah, the solution is to buy straight CSLs. The reason PSLs get a cost break is that they won't always be useful, since a penalty might not exist for you to offset (for example, firing a ranged power point blank, or from any distance where the range penalty is less than your PSLs). But if the penalty is always going to be there, then a straight CSL and a PSL would behave exactly the same (well, either that, or the PSL will always be ignored, in which case you shouldn't buy it anyway), so they should cost the same.

[Benzini]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

the current rules stae that you can't use PSL to offset combat maneuvers, so what is the best alternative to this? e.g.:8 pt combat lvls with the limitation:only to offset combat maneuver penalties (and what would that limit be? -1?)

[Tonio]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

the current rules stae that you can't use PSL to offset combat maneuvers' date=' so what is the best alternative to this? e.g.:8 pt combat lvls with the limitation:only to offset combat maneuver penalties (and what would that limit be? -1?)[/quote']

 

Um... Straight combat skill levels? The Limitation ends up being non-limiting, unless you buy more levels than you need, so you get a -0 for it, if you insist on writing it down.

 

For example:

 

4pts +2 with Offensive Strike, Only to Offset OCV Penalty (-0)

 

Note that since Offensive Strike imposes a -2 OCV, that +2 will always be beneficial, hence the -0 value.

[Qelan]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Um... Straight combat skill levels? The Limitation ends up being non-limiting, unless you buy more levels than you need, so you get a -0 for it, if you insist on writing it down.

 

For example:

 

4pts +2 with Offensive Strike, Only to Offset OCV Penalty (-0)

 

Note that since Offensive Strike imposes a -2 OCV, that +2 will always be beneficial, hence the -0 value.

 

I believe lvls with all combat cost 8pts.

[archermoo]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I believe lvls with all combat cost 8pts.

 

Very true. However OCV only levels with a specific maneuver cost only 2.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

What about using PSL's to counter penalties for a Sweep? The penalties for the specific maneuver(s) being used in the Sweep would still apply, but is there any reason you couldn't use PSL's for this?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

What about using PSL's to counter penalties for a Sweep? The penalties for the specific maneuver(s) being used in the Sweep would still apply' date=' but is there any reason you couldn't use PSL's for this?[/quote']

 

The rule specifically site not being able to use PSLs to offset standard Combat Maneuver penalties. Like Sweep, Grab, etc.

 

This is, actually, exactly what Combat Skill Levels are for, at BEST 8 Pt CSL; Only to be applied to Penalty on Combat Maneuver is worth -0.

 

most of the time, this is exactly where CSLs are applied, to offset the Maneuvers imposed penalty. Worst case secnarion a maneuver with only a DCV Penalty cannot have it's OCV increased. . .

 

Beyond that, you're buying 3pt CSLs with Martial Maneuvers, which can't take a Limitation. Or 5pt CSLs with Hand-To-Hand or such and it's still worth only -0 in my book.

[Tonio]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

The rule specifically site not being able to use PSLs to offset standard Combat Maneuver penalties. Like Sweep, Grab, etc.

 

This is, actually, exactly what Combat Skill Levels are for, at BEST 8 Pt CSL; Only to be applied to Penalty on Combat Maneuver is worth -0.

 

most of the time, this is exactly where CSLs are applied, to offset the Maneuvers imposed penalty. Worst case secnarion a maneuver with only a DCV Penalty cannot have it's OCV increased. . .

 

Beyond that, you're buying 3pt CSLs with Martial Maneuvers, which can't take a Limitation. Or 5pt CSLs with Hand-To-Hand or such and it's still worth only -0 in my book.

 

I understand perfectly the rationale for not allowing PSLs for Combat Maneuver OCV penalties, most of the time. Specifically, I don't understand why it applies to Sweep. Sweep has a variable penalty, similar to the range penalty for range attacks. Taking, say, 10 levels with Sweep costs 20pts and means I get a +10 to OCV every time I use Sweep. Offsetting the first -10 to Sweep, though, shouldn't cost the same, since I'll often be Sweeping less than 5 attacks, and hence getting less than -10, and therefore not getting full use out of my 10 levels. As I understand it, that's the reason PSLs are cheaper than regular levels: you won't get their full benefit all the time.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I understand perfectly the rationale for not allowing PSLs for Combat Maneuver OCV penalties' date=' [i']most of the time[/i]. Specifically, I don't understand why it applies to Sweep. Sweep has a variable penalty, similar to the range penalty for range attacks. Taking, say, 10 levels with Sweep costs 20pts and means I get a +10 to OCV every time I use Sweep. Offsetting the first -10 to Sweep, though, shouldn't cost the same, since I'll often be Sweeping less than 5 attacks, and hence getting less than -10, and therefore not getting full use out of my 10 levels. As I understand it, that's the reason PSLs are cheaper than regular levels: you won't get their full benefit all the time.

 

Personally... I don't get it either... Look at this:

 

2 Point Combat Skill Level with Sweep - legal

1 1/2 Point Penalty Skill Level with Sweep - Illegal

 

A savings of 1/2 Point Per Level, or since most likely you're offsetting a full per person penalty of -2 a savings of 1 Point, isn't kosher.

 

the 2pt CSL is almost as cheap, with the same drawbacks.

PSLs are, essentially CSLs with a Limitation.

[Tonio]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Personally... I don't get it either... Look at this:

 

2 Point Combat Skill Level with Sweep - legal

1 1/2 Point Penalty Skill Level with Sweep - Illegal

 

A savings of 1/2 Point Per Level, or since most likely you're offsetting a full per person penalty of -2 a savings of 1 Point, isn't kosher.

 

the 2pt CSL is almost as cheap, with the same drawbacks.

PSLs are, essentially CSLs with a Limitation.

 

Well, actually, for the first two levels, I understand it. Sweep always gets at least -2, so the first two levels will always be in effect, so there shouldn't be a limitation on them. But after that, a limitation should be applicable.

 

Which makes me think... not all PSLs are created equal. The first ones you buy are more likely to be useful than subsequent ones, yet they cost the same. For example, 2 PSLs for Range will be useful in most ranged situations. 12 PSLs, though, are hardly more useful than 10... how often are you shooting further than 128" away? 60 AP powers can't even reach that far.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Well, actually, for the first two levels, I understand it. Sweep always gets at least -2, so the first two levels will always be in effect, so there shouldn't be a limitation on them. But after that, a limitation should be applicable.

 

Which makes me think... not all PSLs are created equal. The first ones you buy are more likely to be useful than subsequent ones, yet they cost the same. For example, 2 PSLs for Range will be useful in most ranged situations. 12 PSLs, though, are hardly more useful than 10... how often are you shooting further than 128" away? 60 AP powers can't even reach that far.

 

Well, I disagree on the idea that there should be a Limitation on SLs after the first few.

 

Buy only as many as you think will be beneficial to you.

 

I will note that the biggest difference between 2 Point CSLs and 1.5 Point PSLs is that the CSLs will ALWAYS apply to the Sweep maneuver, even if you're not overcoming penalties - which means if you buy 4 Levels to offset hitting three targets, but only go after two you have a net gain of +2 OCV.

 

However arbitrary, of whatever the reason, PSLs aren't (by the book) allowed to be purchased to offset Combat Maneuver Penalties. Personally, I don't have an issue with this - even in the case of Sweep. They're too cheap, IMO, for that use.

[Tonio]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Well, I disagree on the idea that there should be a Limitation on SLs after the first few.

 

Buy only as many as you think will be beneficial to you.

 

I will note that the biggest difference between 2 Point CSLs and 1.5 Point PSLs is that the CSLs will ALWAYS apply to the Sweep maneuver, even if you're not overcoming penalties - which means if you buy 4 Levels to offset hitting three targets, but only go after two you have a net gain of +2 OCV.

 

However arbitrary, of whatever the reason, PSLs aren't (by the book) allowed to be purchased to offset Combat Maneuver Penalties. Personally, I don't have an issue with this - even in the case of Sweep. They're too cheap, IMO, for that use.

 

Well, I don't have that big an issue with it (we're talking a handful of points at most). It's mostly the academic thing, hehe.

 

While they're low-cost, I'm not sure I'd call them "cheap", which implies (or means?) "lower cost than actual value". If a 2pt CSL is priced adequately, then a PSL should cost less than 2pts, since it does less (or rather, it works less often).

[SteveZilla]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I understand perfectly the rationale for not allowing PSLs for Combat Maneuver OCV penalties' date=' [i']most of the time[/i]. Specifically, I don't understand why it applies to Sweep. Sweep has a variable penalty, similar to the range penalty for range attacks. Taking, say, 10 levels with Sweep costs 20pts and means I get a +10 to OCV every time I use Sweep. Offsetting the first -10 to Sweep, though, shouldn't cost the same, since I'll often be Sweeping less than 5 attacks, and hence getting less than -10, and therefore not getting full use out of my 10 levels. As I understand it, that's the reason PSLs are cheaper than regular levels: you won't get their full benefit all the time.

 

Range is only partially under your character's control, so PSLs are applicable, IMO. The target can move on it's own, moving closer to you, thereby lessening the impact of your PSLs for range. Not to mention that adjusting the range to target usually takes at least a half-phase action.

 

How many times your character attacks with a Sweep is completely under your character's control, and IMO this means PSLs are not valid.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Range is only partially under your character's control, so PSLs are applicable, IMO. The target can move on it's own, moving closer to you, thereby lessening the impact of your PSLs for range. Not to mention that adjusting the range to target usually takes at least a half-phase action.

 

How many times your character attacks with a Sweep is completely under your character's control, and IMO this means PSLs are not valid.

 

Interesting angle to look at it from.

 

Looking at the suggested uses for PSLs, they do manage to involve Situational Modifiers (outside influences have an effect) vs Choices you make.

[Tonio]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

Range is only partially under your character's control, so PSLs are applicable, IMO. The target can move on it's own, moving closer to you, thereby lessening the impact of your PSLs for range. Not to mention that adjusting the range to target usually takes at least a half-phase action.

 

How many times your character attacks with a Sweep is completely under your character's control, and IMO this means PSLs are not valid.

 

Like g-a said, interesting point of view... but even if you choose to attack less times with Sweep, you still end up with CSLs you can't use, CSLs that are therefore less useful than 2 pointers. There's really a significant difference when you have, say, 6 levels. You could attack two targets at +4, if you use 2pt CLSs, or at +0, if you use PSLs. Yes, it's entirely under your control... but you're left with fewer choices. With regular CSLs you can choose to hit less times to gain accuracy; with PSLs you wouldn't get any increased accuracy for attacking less times.

[Qelan]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I can't see why you do not find limiting 8pts CSL only to offset combat penalties a limitation.

Normally a person could use a 8pt lvl to add to his DCV or OCV no matter what maneuver they are executing but with this limitation if the character is throwing a punch he would not be able to use any of the limited combat levels because the punch maneuver is +0/+0 ocv/dcv attack.

[archermoo]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I can't see why you do not find limiting 8pts CSL only to offset combat penalties a limitation.

Normally a person could use a 8pt lvl to add to his DCV or OCV no matter what maneuver they are executing but with this limitation if the character is throwing a punch he would not be able to use any of the limited combat levels because the punch maneuver is +0/+0 ocv/dcv attack.

 

I don't know that anyone has said that they didn't think that an 8 point level in all combat wouldn't qualify for a limitation if it could only be used to offset combat penalties. I think most of the discussions have been centering around why a 2 point OCV only level with a specific maneuver doesn't qualify for a limitation for only being able to be used to offset the OCV minuses from that maneuver.

 

As a note, I probably wouldn't have a problem with allowing a limitation on an 8 point level if it could only be used to offset penalties.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

The rule specifically site not being able to use PSLs to offset standard Combat Maneuver penalties. Like Sweep, Grab, etc.

 

This is, actually, exactly what Combat Skill Levels are for, at BEST 8 Pt CSL; Only to be applied to Penalty on Combat Maneuver is worth -0.

 

most of the time, this is exactly where CSLs are applied, to offset the Maneuvers imposed penalty. Worst case secnarion a maneuver with only a DCV Penalty cannot have it's OCV increased. . .

 

Beyond that, you're buying 3pt CSLs with Martial Maneuvers, which can't take a Limitation. Or 5pt CSLs with Hand-To-Hand or such and it's still worth only -0 in my book.

The problem here I don't want to add CV to the character in question; it's already high enough (standing OCV/DCV of 14 before levels and/or maneuver bonuses). If I've got to pay full points for Combat Skill Levels then I might as well use them as Combat levels. Penalty seemed like a narrower use.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I can't see why you do not find limiting 8pts CSL only to offset combat penalties a limitation.

Normally a person could use a 8pt lvl to add to his DCV or OCV no matter what maneuver they are executing but with this limitation if the character is throwing a punch he would not be able to use any of the limited combat levels because the punch maneuver is +0/+0 ocv/dcv attack.

 

That's not what we were discussing. Go ahead and Limit the 8pt CSLs to offset penalties.

 

The point was if PSLs were allowed to do so they would be the far cheaper option.

 

The problem here I don't want to add CV to the character in question; it's already high enough (standing OCV/DCV of 14 before levels and/or maneuver bonuses). If I've got to pay full points for Combat Skill Levels then I might as well use them as Combat levels. Penalty seemed like a narrower use.

 

This is a good point really.

 

While I've said I don't have issues with the current PSL ruling, I wouldn't complain if it were changed so a character could sink points into it to off-set Combat Maneuver penalties. It might be a good direction for 6th Ed. to in anyways.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

This is a good point really.

 

While I've said I don't have issues with the current PSL ruling, I wouldn't complain if it were changed so a character could sink points into it to off-set Combat Maneuver penalties. It might be a good direction for 6th Ed. to in anyways.

I'm 95% sure that if I propose using PSL's only to counter Sweep penalties, my co-GM's would permit it even if it technically violates the printed 5ER rules. (Three of them have already said it sounds perfectly reasonable; whereas none were thrilled with the idea of this character buying some type of Combat Levels.) Our philosophy is that the rules are a framework for play, not a straightjacket.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Penalty skill lvl question

 

I'm 95% sure that if I propose using PSL's only to counter Sweep penalties' date=' my co-GM's would permit it even if it technically violates the printed 5ER rules. (Three of them have already said it sounds perfectly reasonable; whereas none were thrilled with the idea of this character buying some type of Combat Levels.) Our philosophy is that the rules are a framework for play, not a straightjacket.[/quote']

 

I agree completely with this statement.