Balancing various challenges.

[Rockhoof]

I'm starting up a new campaign and have never played in the Hero System before. I've got most of the basics covered, but am looking for some advice on differing types of challenges to face my PCs with.

 

The rules book is a great help when trying to balance PCs against each other, but how do I go about balancing their encounters? What should I be doing if I want to throw a horde of minions at them? How many points should a 5 person goon-squad be built upon? How many points should I use to build an end of scenario bad guy? What about a mixed group of goons and BBEGs? Are there any rules of thumb to use?

 

Assume 2 brand new PCs in a medium-future scifi setting, built on 200+150 pts. with an AP limit of 50.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

In General, minion level baddies should be built at low Speed. This keeps things under control for you and allows the PCs to default to being better.

 

Besides that, balancing a bunch of mooks against the PCs is less about point totals and more about a blend of Combat Value, Defenses, and Damage Class. It is a subtle thing that even experienced GMs have to learn by doing. My suggestion is to start low. Give the mooks low CVs and Defenses. If the characters walk through them too fast, build them up a little. You will find the right balance as you go.

 

In my own Star HERO game, I found that just a few points of CV makes a HUGE difference. Obviously, higher Damage Class makes a difference, but the bad guys have to be able to hit first.

 

Also, look at the Teamwork Skill and Coordinated Attacks to give a boost to the mooks without necessarily boosting their stats.

 

And welcome aboard.

[sbarron]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

I suggest that you be careful with sci-fi weaponry around your PCs. I played in a warhammer Hero game once, where most of the weapons were in the 2d6k-3d6k range. Even though all the PCs had 12 PD/12 ED armor, a small group low-end baddies and a couple of lucky shots really put a dent in the PCs. And nothing ruins a game like an inauspicious start.

 

Keep the damamge classes low, the number of opponents low, and CVs of those opponents low for the first few encounters. Try to get a feel for what the PCs can and can't do, and then toughen up the opposition an needed.

 

You're going to make some mistakes as you get a feel for things, so don't worry about it when it happens. You'll learn fast enough what works and what doesn't, and pretty soon you'll be able to design these encounters in your sleep. Good luck!

[Mike W]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

I'm starting up a new campaign and have never played in the Hero System before. I've got most of the basics covered, but am looking for some advice on differing types of challenges to face my PCs with.

 

The rules book is a great help when trying to balance PCs against each other, but how do I go about balancing their encounters? What should I be doing if I want to throw a horde of minions at them? How many points should a 5 person goon-squad be built upon? How many points should I use to build an end of scenario bad guy? What about a mixed group of goons and BBEGs? Are there any rules of thumb to use?

 

Assume 2 brand new PCs in a medium-future scifi setting, built on 200+150 pts. with an AP limit of 50.

 

Most goons are built on 75-150 points. On 150, they can be pretty effective as unit, especially with the right weaponry so choose your goons to match the situation and tone.

 

Keep in mind that a 4 level swing(4 CVs, 4 Damage Classes, etc.) is pretty overwhelming. So ask your self how tough the encounter should be then build based off of that. Easy fights, the "bad guys" are 3-4 ranks below them. A world class guy and give them a run for his money if all his stats are 3-4 levels higher than everyone elses.

 

if all else fails, test run it. Set up the scenario and play it out to get an idea of how it could go.

[Rockhoof]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

Ahhh, I have a better understanding now. Thank you for your patience.

 

Nolgroth: Great idea on Teamwork and Coordinated Attacks, thank you.

 

Sbarron: I'm purposefully having my PCs spend points for all their gear and gadgets to prevent exactly that. Gadget-creep is insidious.

 

Mike W: That's the insight I was missing, thank you. I'll be taking a close look at the DCs my PCs come up with.

 

A follow-up question if I may, are there any rules of thumb or mathematical breakdowns of defenses compared to attacks? Things make much more sense to me when I can see the underlying math and tbh, I haven't had the time to do it myself.

[Eosin]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

Great Points so far... Here are my thoughts.

 

Goons should be:

1-2 levels of SPD lower than PCs

2-3 CV (OCV/DCV/DEX) lower than PCs

Goon damage should average 10-15 STUN through defenses on a successful hit.

 

2nd Echelon (sergeants) should be:

1 SPD Lower

1-2 CV lower

Damage should be enough to routinely STUN PCs on a hit.

 

3rd Echelon (Captains)

Basically, I build these guys at PC level. The players will perform better in most cases since they focus on their actions and I am focused on the game.

Boss

Depends... Boss build is extremely role dependent.

 

 

With only 2 PCs I would stick to something like the following as a learning curve.

Battle 1: 3 Goons

Battle 2: 3 Goons, 1 Sgt

Battle 3: 1 Sgt, 1 Capt [should be easy]

Battle 4: 5 Goons [hard]

Battle 5: 2 Sgt, 1 Capt [Hard]

Battle 6: 2 Captains [rough, bad die rolls could make this ugly]

Battle 7: I'd run an arena/Danger Room 1 captain, 2 Sgt, and 4 goons. Players should struggle valiantly but the ultimate outcome will normally favor the NPCs.

[Mike W]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

Great Points so far... Here are my thoughts.

 

Goons should be:

1-2 levels of SPD lower than PCs

2-3 CV (OCV/DCV/DEX) lower than PCs

Goon damage should average 10-15 STUN through defenses on a successful hit.

 

2nd Echelon (sergeants) should be:

1 SPD Lower

1-2 CV lower

Damage should be enough to routinely STUN PCs on a hit.

 

3rd Echelon (Captains)

Basically, I build these guys at PC level. The players will perform better in most cases since they focus on their actions and I am focused on the game.

Boss

Depends... Boss build is extremely role dependent.

 

 

With only 2 PCs I would stick to something like the following as a learning curve.

Battle 1: 3 Goons

Battle 2: 3 Goons, 1 Sgt

Battle 3: 1 Sgt, 1 Capt [should be easy]

Battle 4: 5 Goons [hard]

Battle 5: 2 Sgt, 1 Capt [Hard]

Battle 6: 2 Captains [rough, bad die rolls could make this ugly]

Battle 7: I'd run an arena/Danger Room 1 captain, 2 Sgt, and 4 goons. Players should struggle valiantly but the ultimate outcome will normally favor the NPCs.

 

Sgt. who can routinely stun PCs? Pretty bloody. Run it right with 3 goons who can routinely do decent damage and a sergeant who can routinely stun and the PCs are gonna have a heck of a time winning, especially novice PCs.

[Utech]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

By far the most important thing is to be unafraid to make changes on the fly. You never need to mention to your players that you changed things. Getting things exactly right before the encounter is hard. Don't get hung up on it.

 

Start your encounter. If it becomes obvious that the PCs are going to stomp the bad guys with such ease that no one has any fun, make things harder. You might...

• ...bump up their damage a little. If anyone asks about the extra damage, say that the PCs got lucky on earlier rolls.
  
• ...bump up CVs a little. If anyone asks why identical rolls to-hit do not produce identical results, say that the bad guys have some Skill Levels that you've assigned differently.
  
• ...bump up defenses a little.
  
• ...have another bad guy or two suddenly enter the fray.
  
• ...have an innocent bystander (DNPC?) become endangered by the bad guys and/or environment.
  
• ...have the bad guys use the environment to their advantage in a surprising way. (One of those cars on the street was rigged with a bomb last night. Now the bad guy presses a button...)
  

 

On the other hand, if it becomes obvious that your PCs are overmatched and no one is going to have any fun, make things easier. You might...

• ...lower the effectiveness of bad guy weapons. Have them run out of charges of that higher damage ammo they were using.
  
• ...lower bad guy CVs.
  
• ...lower bad guy defenses and/or STUN.
  
• ...have another good guy enter the fray. Be very careful that this good guy helps but does not overshadow the PCs. A simple off-duty cop that gets in a lucky shot or a kid that screams and distracts the bad guys may be all that's required.
  
• ...give the PCs an opportunity to use something in the environment to their advantage. Is there an awning that might be dropped over the bad guys? Is there a fire hydrant that might shoot a spray of high-powered water at the bad guys if you shot it just right? Is there something that offers cover or could be used as a shield?
  

[Eosin]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

Sgt. who can routinely stun PCs? Pretty bloody. Run it right with 3 goons who can routinely do decent damage and a sergeant who can routinely stun and the PCs are gonna have a heck of a time winning' date=' especially novice PCs.[/quote']

 

True. In my experience, CV trumps DC for what'll get you in trouble. The bad guys in our Dark Champions can routinely kill the players... 2d6 RKA, autofire with Resistant Piercing goes from zero to dead real fast. We still scatter hordes of them. I will qualify that with we have been playing for years without end....

[Trebuchet]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

Sgt. who can routinely stun PCs? Pretty bloody. Run it right with 3 goons who can routinely do decent damage and a sergeant who can routinely stun and the PCs are gonna have a heck of a time winning' date=' especially novice PCs.[/quote']That was my thought as well. We don't even generally use supervillains (except Big Bads) who can "routinely" Stun our heroes (except the low-defense martial artists); it generally takes an above-average damage roll to accomplish that.

 

Leak a bit of Stun through with every hit, absolutely.

[Edsel]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

True. In my experience' date=' CV trumps DC for what'll get you in trouble. The bad guys in our Dark Champions can routinely kill the players... 2d6 RKA, autofire with Resistant Piercing goes from zero to dead real fast. We still scatter hordes of them. I will qualify that with we have been playing for years without end.... [/quote']

 

You make me sound like a killer GM... I have always thought I tended to be a little soft.

[Eosin]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

That was my thought as well. We don't even generally use supervillains (except Big Bads) who can "routinely" Stun our heroes (except the low-defense martial artists); it generally takes an above-average damage roll to accomplish that.

 

Leak a bit of Stun through with every hit, absolutely.

 

If this was a supers game I would use a different criteria. Sci-Fi, Fantasy, and DC style games use guns or knives with otherwise normal humans i.e. Luke Skywalker for all his Jedi mojo can be killed by blaster fire. Most weapons in these setting (most, not all) don't STUN they put a hunk of BODY on you.

 

I concur that in supers I follow closer to your guidelines.

 

You make me sound like a killer GM... I have always thought I tended to be a little soft.

 

We run some unforgiving genres. Supers is all about STUN... We use souped up guns against normals [guns in the OKC games run by me or Edsel do more damage to increase lethality]. That is all about the killing and maiming.

 

As an example of what I am talking about, right now I run a Stargate game where the grunts throw 3d6 RKA. That puts about 5-6 BODY through on the average player. The highest CON is 14 - an average shot to an average location STUNs the PCs and that is from the lowest goon. However, a team of 5 (50 + 50 point characters) managed to sack 22 jaffa without so much as a scratch. DO you think it is a "killer game?"

 

Once more, by and large, these are very experienced players.

 

I don't feel you are a killer DM. I do feel that both our games can get lethal real fast if players make poor choices in a gun fight. Even the lowest grunt in our games has the capacity to kill with a lucky shot.

 

 

I'd also like to point out that my intention was to give a series of challenges to find out where the players get into trouble. Every single game is going to be different... even if it is run by the same GM. Characters are built more or less efficiently - sometimes you have a heavy weapons specialist, sometimes you have a less than stellar martial artist. It all varies. You experiment with the numbers and tinker to see exactly where that particular groups "sweet spot" resides.

 

Edsel is a great GM by the way... Don't tell him but, his DEMON agents are freakishly deadly.

[Mike W]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

That was my thought as well. We don't even generally use supervillains (except Big Bads) who can "routinely" Stun our heroes (except the low-defense martial artists); it generally takes an above-average damage roll to accomplish that.

 

Leak a bit of Stun through with every hit, absolutely.

 

A bit, but grunts, to me, are generally an annoyance most of the time. If I don't need to take the trouble to name you, you shouldn't do serious damage to anyone who actually has a name. 10-15 STUN on average is a bit much for a basic agent with a popgun, for my taste. 15 STUN is a pretty solid hit from a super, when you figure that most supers can only take 3 or 4 such hits. That gives a group of agents a real chance against a super. Not really very in genre to me unless you're playing street level. Of course, most "street level' supers are people like Daredevil and Batman who have almost no chance of getting hit by such guys - or shouldn't anyway.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

A bit' date=' but grunts, to me, are generally an annoyance most of the time. If I don't need to take the trouble to name you, you shouldn't do serious damage to anyone who actually has a name. 10-15 STUN on average is a bit much for a basic agent with a popgun, for my taste. 15 STUN is a pretty solid hit from a super, when you figure that most supers can only take 3 or 4 such hits. That gives a group of agents a real chance against a super. Not really very in genre to me unless you're playing street level. Of course, most "street level' supers are people like Daredevil and Batman who have almost no chance of getting hit by such guys - or shouldn't anyway.[/quote']The way I see it, generally mooks and agents should be able to leak a few points of STUN through to anyone but tough bricks so they can't be simply ignored, but only those few agents with "heavy weapons" should typically be able to do more. Agents are supposed to be annoyances; something to distract and wear down the heroes (and of course remind the good guys of just how powerful they are). I don't mind bricks ignoring mooks; being tough is their schtick and they should be allowed to display that durability on occasion.

 

If every agent who hits the hero does just 3 or 4 points of STUN, then a group of them is a real threat even to supers but unless the heroes screw up by the numbers are unlikely to triumph.

[Mike W]

Re: Balancing various challenges.

 

The way I see it' date=' generally mooks and agents should be able to leak a [i']few[/i] points of STUN through to anyone but tough bricks so they can't be simply ignored, but only those few agents with "heavy weapons" should typically be able to do more. Agents are supposed to be annoyances; something to distract and wear down the heroes (and of course remind the good guys of just how powerful they are). I don't mind bricks ignoring mooks; being tough is their schtick and they should be allowed to display that durability on occasion.

 

If every agent who hits the hero does just 3 or 4 points of STUN, then a group of them is a real threat even to supers but unless the heroes screw up by the numbers are unlikely to triumph.

 

That sounds about right to me. Most of my campaigns, the average DEF on supers is about 25 and standard agent weapons are 8d6, though I usually give them autofire. Not that they can get multiple hits very often.