STR and Armor, a brief analysis (LONG POST)

[eepjr24]

STR and Armor, a brief analysis

 

I went through this exercise largly after seeing the number of people who felt that STR was underpriced, especially in FH games. It is meant to inspire debate, but I am not interested in starting wars. If you find math errors, please point them out and I will try to correct them.

 

I started with two warriors. One is named Light Warrior (LW), the other Heavy Warrior (HW). The premise was to see how much having better STR (and by extension, heavy armor) benefited HW over his weaker and lighter armored opponent. I have to make a lot of assumptions here, but I hope to give enough info for the reader to make their own judgments.

 

First, the base characters are built on 58 points each, with 50 points in characteristics and 8 points in basic skills. I pulled those from the air, it seemed like the minimum an average fighter would have to me. Here are the breakdowns:

 

LW:

 

14 STR

20 DEX

12 CON

11 BODY

10 INT

10 EGO

10 PRE

10 COM

3 PD

2 ED

4 SPD

5 REC

24 END

24 STUN

 

WF: Blades

WF: Offhand

+2 w/ Blades

 

Equipment:

Main Gauche, +1 DCV, 1d6 K w/ str (+2 OCV Block Bind Disarm) 1 kg

Rapier, +1 OCV, 1d6 K w/ str .8 kg

Soft Leather Ring Mail, 3 DEF 7 kg

General Equipment (clothes, money, etc) 5kg

 

Total Weight: 13.8kg -0 DCV / Dex Rolls

----------------------------

 

HW:

 

20 STR

14 DEX

14 CON

12 BODY

10 INT

10 EGO

10 PRE

10 COM

4 PD

3 ED

4 SPD

7 REC

28 END

29 STUN

 

WF: Blades

WF: Shield

+2 w/ Blades

 

Equipment:

Large Wooden Shield, +3 DCV 7kg

Bastard Sword, 2d6 w/str 1.7kg

Plate and Chain, 7 DEF 28kg

 

General Equipment (clothes, money, etc) 5kg

 

Total Weight: 41.7kg -1 DCV / Dex Rolls

----------------------------

 

I am not using any special rules other then the base Fantasy encumbrance rules. I did use my judgement that the basic things most people carry (coin purse, clothes, etc) would weigh about 5kg. All equipment is straight from FH for 5th Ed. LW is wearing 258 SP in gear, HW is wearing 878 SP in gear. If using the Fine weapons and armor rules, LW would have a good bit of cash to spend on higher quality gear.

 

All hits are figured for 1 body and 3 stun per dc killing. I used this chart to figure percentage chances of events for 3d6 die rolls:

 

18 100

17 99.5

16 98.2

15 95.4

14 90.7

13 83.8

12 74.1

11 62.5

10 50.0

9 37.5

8 25.9

7 16.2

6 9.3

5 4.6

4 1.9

3 0.5

 

I had LW block, wearing down HW over time. Results:

 

LW - Levels to OCV. Blocking. DCV: 8 OCV: 11 (+2 OCV from Levels, +1 DCV and +2 OCV from Main Gauche)

HW - Levels to OCV. Attacking. DCV: 7 OCV: 7 (+2 OCV from Levels, +3 DCV from Shield, -1 DCV from Encumbrance)

 

LW will Block 95.4 percent of the time.

HW will hit 50 percent of the time if the block fails.

 

LW uses 2 End per phase (-3 / turn).

HW uses 4 End per phase (-9 / turn).

 

LW will run out of END at the end of the 8th Turn.

HW will run out of END at the beginning of the 4th Turn.

 

In the end, HW would drop from exhaustion with LW still quite fresh. If you add in LTE, HW drops in the 3rd Turn. It is unlikely that HW would get a hit in before he drops.

 

Then, I tried having both of them attack.

 

LW - Levels to DCV. Attacking. DCV: 10 OCV: 8 (+2 DCV from Levels, +1 DCV from Main Gauche, +1 OCV from Rapier)

HW - Levels to OCV. Attacking. DCV: 7 OCV: 7 (+2 OCV from Levels, +3 DCV from Shield, -1 DCV from Encumbrance)

 

LW will Block 74.1 percent of the time.

HW will hit 25.9 percent of the time if the block fails.

 

LW uses 2 End per phase (-3 / turn).

HW uses 4 End per phase (-9 / turn).

 

LW will lose about 3 Body and 12 stun the first time he is hit. He will be con stunned and will probably die shortly thereafter.

HW would take no damage on an average hit from LW.

 

LW will run out of END at the end of the 8th Turn.

HW will run out of END at the beginning of the 4th Turn.

 

Basically, it depends on the strategy of LW. Given my limited ability to run test cases, I leave it to the reader to speculate what would happen if each had more points to spend on skills, or if you even out the equipment cost between the two. For me it was merely an exercise to see if a much lighter fighter could live through the fight at all. I will probably not modify the cost of strength based on this exercise, as it does not seem drastically under priced. There are advantages to be certain, but not enough to warrant a change for me.

 

- Ernie

[Herolover]

See I told you

 

Great post. I hope some others read this. This has been my point all along. Many people think the LW is weaker, he isn't weaker just different.

 

And as you pointed out the LW should have some fine equipment to balance all the HW got.

[eepjr24]

LW vs HW

 

Thanks. I was beginning to think the post was so long that everyone who tried to read it fell asleep half way through. heh. I also have a correction to make. When I was looking at armors, I looked at the Barding table, making the armors for both much more expensive. It won't change the outcomes, since I did not use Fine gear. Correct armor costs would be:

 

Soft Leather Ring Mail: 75 SP

Plate and Chain: 275 SP

 

This makes the equipment cost for LW = 108 and the cost for HW = 328. This lowers the ratio to about 3:1 instead of 3.4:1.

 

I did some math on the Fine Weapons. The ones I would go for (were I playing the LW) would be:

 

Fine Rapier: (x4 cost, 80 SP)

Marvelously Light II (9 Str Min)

Biting (+1 DC)

 

Fine Soft Leather ring Mail: (x2 cost, 150 SP)

More Protective (+1 DEF)

 

It would not even things out totally, but it would certainly give LW much more of a change in a straight brawl.

 

- E

[Old Man]

Re: See I told you

 

Originally posted by Herolover

Great post. I hope some others read this. This has been my point all along. Many people think the LW is weaker, he isn't weaker just different.

 

Really? Because I see one character who has to block and dodge for four turns until the other guy runs out of END, and even then will do no BODY to the other character, ever, even if he has a 'biting' rapier and hit locations and critical hits. He can't even stun the HW without a max damage hit to the head or vitals. Why don't you go back and actually finish your analysis by taking into account the armor that the HW is wearing?

[Herolover]

First, let me say that I take a little offense to your post. I am not stupid. I assume you are not either, you are just missing some facts. Maybe you don't understand the HERO rules.

 

1) Yes, the LW dodges and blocks. So does the Martial artist when he comes up against Grond. So does the speedster, so does the rogue. It is part of being a LW. Just as making strike attacks is part of being a HW.

 

2) Okay. So the HW has to roll a 5 or less to hit me......ummm. Yep, I will take those odds every single day. At the end of 4 turns You are not doing anything.

 

3) Turn 5 I have a 15- to hit you...ummm...Yep, I will take those odds any day. Let us say I roll HORRIBLY bad, (I will give you an advantage on this one) and I hit only once. Yes, you are right chances are I won't do any BODY.

 

What about STUN? Chances are, you are going to take some STUN. When you take STUN you loose an equal amount of END, so bye bye recoveries.

 

So now you have no END and are out of STUN. You are unconscious. Yeah, your armor will protect you then.

 

Of course, if you do hit me once I agree that I will be toast. It just comes down to how you want to play it.

[Agent X]

Re: STR and Armor, a brief analysis (LONG POST)

 

I added eepjrs24's fine weapons and armor to LW and ran with some scenarios.

 

LW:

 

14 STR

20 DEX

12 CON

11 BODY

10 INT

10 EGO

10 PRE

10 COM

3 PD

2 ED

4 SPD

5 REC

24 END

24 STUN

 

WF: Blades

WF: Offhand

+2 w/ Blades

 

Equipment:

Main Gauche, +1 DCV, 1d6 K w/ str (+2 OCV Block Bind Disarm) 1 kg

Fine Rapier, +1 OCV, 1 1/2d6 w/ str .8 kg

Fine Soft Leather Ring Mail, 4 DEF 7 kg

General Equipment (clothes, money, etc) 5kg

 

Total Weight: 13.8kg -0 DCV / Dex Rolls

----------------------------

 

HW:

 

20 STR

14 DEX

14 CON

12 BODY

10 INT

10 EGO

10 PRE

10 COM

4 PD

3 ED

4 SPD

7 REC

28 END

29 STUN

 

WF: Blades

WF: Shield

+2 w/ Blades

 

Equipment:

Large Wooden Shield, +3 DCV 7kg

Bastard Sword, 2d6 w/str 1.7kg

Plate and Chain, 7 DEF 28kg

 

General Equipment (clothes, money, etc) 5kg

 

Total Weight: 41.7kg -1 DCV / Dex Rolls

----------------------------

 

 

18 100

17 99.5

16 98.2

15 95.4

14 90.7

13 83.8

12 74.1

11 62.5

10 50.0

9 37.5

8 25.9

7 16.2

6 9.3

5 4.6

4 1.9

3 0.5

 

LW OCV 7 +2+1 = 10, DCV 7, PD (7/4) KA 1 1/2d6 av. 5.5bod, 13.75 stun

HW OCV 5+2 = 7, DCV 5+3-1 = 7, PD (11/7) 2d6 av. 7bod, 17.5 stun

 

LW hits 90.7% of the time does on average 0bod, 2.75 stun but is capable of 9bod, 45 stun which would do 2 bod, 34 stun

HW hits 37.5% of the time does on average 3bod, 10.5 stun but is capable of 12bod, 60 stun which would do 8bod, 53 stun

 

LW favorable scenario

Phase 3: LW hits and rolls high: 8 body, 32 stun and HW has lost 1 body and 21 stun. HW is dazed. Phase 6: LW hits and rolls 6 bod and 24 stun. HW takes no bod but is unconscious and easily dispatched.

 

HW favorable scenario

Phase 3: LW hits and rolls 3 body, 3 stun and HW hits! and rolls 10 bod and 40 stun, LW takes 6 bod and is at -9 stun and easily dispatched.

 

Balanced Scenario?

Phase 3: LW hits and rolls 3 bod, 15 stun, HW takes 4 stun. HW misses

Phase 6: LW hits and rolls 4 bod, 4 stun, HW takes nothing.

HW hits and rolls 7 bod and 14 stun, LW takes 3 bod, 4 stun

 

Phase 9: LW hits and rolls 5 bod, 20 stun, HW takes 9 stun.

HW misses

Phase 12: LW hits and rolls 6 bod, 12 stun, HW takes 1 stun.

HW misses

 

At the end of turn 1: LW is at 8 bod, 20 stun and HW is at 12 bod, 11 stun. LW has a recovery of 5 and HW has a recovery of 7. I don't see conclusive proof that the HW has a huge advantage. Both characters can take the other out with one hit although HW is more likely to do so but LW is going to hit twice as often. Now, if they have enough money for missile weapons I'm pretty sure that LW is going to be able to use attrition to cream HW.

[Herolover]

The problem I see with most analysis on this subject is people do not undertstand how the LW works. Why are you not having the LW block?

 

Eepjr24's analysis is the first intelligent one I have seen on these boards. Everyone assumes the HW will have armor and will go in doing strikes his strength. So why not let the LW play up his strength wich is dodging and blocking until the other guy is out of END?

 

How about running an analysis where the HW doesn't attack, but only blocks and dodges or doesn't wear his heavy armor or....whatever. It makes just as much sense.

 

If you are going to play the HW smart and give him the advantage of expensive armor than level the playing field. Only then is it a serious analysis.

[JMHammer]

Stun Dmg = End Dmg ???

 

Herolover said:

What about STUN? Chances are, you are going to take some STUN. When you take STUN you loose an equal amount of END, so bye bye recoveries.

 

Is this some new rule in 5E Fantasy Hero (which I do not have yet)? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I'm certain that a target, when hit, does not lose an equal amount of End when Stun damage is taken.

 

Perhaps you meant that when HW uses End, after his End is zero, he'll be burning Stun (1d6 Stun for each 2 End, if memory serves).

 

John H

[Dauntless]

There is one trick an HW can use to even the odds....Grab. If the HW fighter can grab the LW, LW's mobility advantage is gone, and he has no armor to protect him now.

 

When I used to spar against small fast guys...for some strange reason, they loved to go toe to toe with me (I'm about 6', 205lbs, and though not a slow lumbering ox, I'm not an agile fox either). Sometimes just to show them how stupid it was to do that, I'd grab ahold of their attacking arm or leg, and take them down, or sometimes just immobilize them so that they couldn't consistently lunge and duck. If you want to see a fight like this played out....watch the movie Rob Roy.

 

Now since the HW fighter has a shield, this makes it impossible. But if he uses the Bastard Sword two handed, he could do this. However, he then sacrifices his DCV bonus. But since LW's damage is fairly insignificant, he should go ahead and probably risk this to attempt the grab. Another option is to buy a martial art that has a Block move followed by a grab or including a grab. Another option is a "bum rush", rushing into the opponent and knocking him to his feet (a takedown with a moveby or movethrough element). Against an agile opponent this is more difficult, though not impossible. Once an agile opponent is on his back though...his agility isn't really going to save him (-1/2 DCV unless he's trained in some kind of ground fighting art)

 

This is the trick with playing these kinds of characters....the LW must use his stealth, accuracy and agility to dodge attacks. The HW fighter, being more burdened must end the fight as quickly as possible, but he also knows he can take more damage. This means he should wade into the fight very aggressively. The LW on the other hand must dance around and tire out his opponent or use his extreme dexterity to attack a weak spot. This is exactly how I've seen most real fights with large vs. small opponents work out. Whoever gets the first good hit in tends to win.

 

Now there's a strategy the LW can use versus the HW. Aim for the head. If he uses the optional Head Shot (1d6+3 hit location) he has a 33% chance of hitting the head. Now me personally, if a player is in full plate, he's going to take a further OCV and DCV penalty for having his face plate down due to sensory restrictions. But even if you don't account for that, the LW will do maximum STUN...so on average he'll do a BODY of 11 (the average roll of 1 1/2d6 = 5.5) and a STUN of 27.5, and a max BODY of 18 (which is about a 5.5% chance of doing) and a STUN of 45. In the average damage scenario, the HW will take 16.5 STUN, more than enough to stun him, and he'll also take 4 BODY.

 

This brings to point an issue I have with Hero System melee combat. First off is how easy it is to stun someone. I think the optional rule of having the STUN damage and applying each half to the defense will help cut down on this. Another option is to allow characters to make an EGO roll when they should be stunned. They should take a minus modifier for every point of BODY damage they've taken (reflecting the mind needing to concetrate on keeping the body alive rather than fully conscious). As it stands now, basically the first person to land a blow wins....which is not entirely realistic. I'd also consider giving bladed weapons a multipower of cutting or impaling attacks....the cutting attacks should take a -1 STUN modifier (cuts hurt, but aren't nearly as shock inducing as a good impaling stab or a powerful crushing blow which knocks the wind out of you or bangs your head around). Conversely the impaling attack should probably be AP, though not always. I could also conceivably allow a penetrating advantage, since it's possible that an impaling weapon won't penetrate the armor, but still leave a nasty dent that can cause damage.

 

I wish the Hero system more specifically defined what exactly STUN is. Is it pain tolerance? Is it willpower? Is it shock resistance? Is it concussive resistance? While you could theoretically place limitations for all the above (-1/2 limitation, Only against Pain for example) then you have to create two damage tracks...one against weapons that create a lot of pain, and one that doesn't. And how much pain do certain weapons cause for that matter? The filipinos preferred using sticks to swords because they believed concussive strikes were more painful and dehabilitative than cuts or stabs causing the opponent to be stunned more easily (as an example, a cutting stab to the forehead of back of the head will be painful and cause a nasty scalp laceration....but it more than likely won't knock you out...OTOH, getting a similarly forceful blow with a lead pipe is probably going to knock you out). So the nebulous concept of STUN means that realistic depcitions of combat often have some strange effects that are hard to do without lots of tweaking and customization of weapons (like in the head case, lead pipes have a +1 STUN multiplier, "only in Head Shots or knee breaks").

 

It's little things like these that are going to cause GM's headaches in creating house rules to cover these situations. I know because if you have any players who want realism, they are going to whine about how certain things are implemented and how it's not "fair" that either they took more damage than they thought they should, or they believe that their own weapon should inflict more damage.

[Herolover]

Re: Stun Dmg = End Dmg ???

 

Originally posted by JMHammer

Herolover said:

 

 

Is this some new rule in 5E Fantasy Hero (which I do not have yet)? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I'm certain that a target, when hit, does not lose an equal amount of End when Stun damage is taken.

 

Perhaps you meant that when HW uses End, after his End is zero, he'll be burning Stun (1d6 Stun for each 2 End, if memory serves).

John H

 

OOPPS. Mea Culpa, I was getting a couple of rules confused. You are correct about burning the STUN, but I was actually thinking of the rule that for every BODY you take you take an equal amount of STUN.

 

Of course, since the LW isn't doing any BODY that rule is kind moot.

[eepjr24]

OldMan

 

OldMan Said:

Really? Because I see one character who has to block and dodge for four turns until the other guy runs out of END, and even then will do no BODY to the other character, ever, even if he has a 'biting' rapier and hit locations and critical hits. He can't even stun the HW without a max damage hit to the head or vitals.

 

I get your point, and even agree to some extent. The LW will always have to use strategy in the scenario I set up. I just don't think it is an unsurmountable difference or that it is far enough out of genre to require a change to the cost of STR.

 

If the LW really wants to fight the HW head on, the package deals for LW and HW in the book go much farther toward making the LW more than able to take the HW in a straight fight, but the package is about 30 points more.

 

By the way, I love your sig quote.

 

- Ernie

[eepjr24]

Dauntless Comments

 

Dauntless Said:

There is one trick an HW can use to even the odds....Grab. If the HW fighter can grab the LW, LW's mobility advantage is gone, and he has no armor to protect him now.

 

When I used to spar against small fast guys...for some strange reason, they loved to go toe to toe with me (I'm about 6', 205lbs, and though not a slow lumbering ox, I'm not an agile fox either). Sometimes just to show them how stupid it was to do that, I'd grab ahold of their attacking arm or leg, and take them down, or sometimes just immobilize them so that they couldn't consistently lunge and duck. If you want to see a fight like this played out....watch the movie Rob Roy.

 

Now since the HW fighter has a shield, this makes it impossible. But if he uses the Bastard Sword two handed, he could do this. However, he then sacrifices his DCV bonus. But since LW's damage is fairly insignificant, he should go ahead and probably risk this to attempt the grab. Another option is to buy a martial art that has a Block move followed by a grab or including a grab. Another option is a "bum rush", rushing into the opponent and knocking him to his feet (a takedown with a moveby or movethrough element). Against an agile opponent this is more difficult, though not impossible. Once an agile opponent is on his back though...his agility isn't really going to save him (-1/2 DCV unless he's trained in some kind of ground fighting art)

 

Not only does HW sacrafice his DCV, he also loses his 2 OCV from blades, giving him a base OCV of 5 and a 4.6 percent chance to grab LW, IF LW's block fails (Grabs can be blocked, and I think it would be painful to have a grab blocked with a Main Gauche).

 

Now there's a strategy the LW can use versus the HW. Aim for the head. If he uses the optional Head Shot (1d6+3 hit location) he has a 33% chance of hitting the head. Now me personally, if a player is in full plate, he's going to take a further OCV and DCV penalty for having his face plate down due to sensory restrictions. But even if you don't account for that, the LW will do maximum STUN...so on average he'll do a BODY of 11 (the average roll of 1 1/2d6 = 5.5) and a STUN of 27.5, and a max BODY of 18 (which is about a 5.5% chance of doing) and a STUN of 45. In the average damage scenario, the HW will take 16.5 STUN, more than enough to stun him, and he'll also take 4 BODY.

 

A valid point on the called Head-Shoulder shot. LW would hit 25.9 percent of the time, and have a 50 percent chance of doing body if he did hit (4+1 x 2 = 10 body). It would still be alot riskier for LW, since a similar lucky shot by HW would put him down for the count.

 

On your stun commentary: Try using the optional rule on FH 159 (left column, 5th paragraph) for doubling the multipliers for body for KA attacks on the hit location chart. That should put stun more in line with what you are looking for.

 

- Ernie

[Dauntless]

Actually I forgot about the -2 OCV since he's not using a blade anymore. So yeah, that will make that tactic somewhat useless unless he buys a martial manuever that adds +2 OCV, or he buys up his CSL to a 5pt level for HTH combat.

 

As for the called shot tactic, I also forgot that the BODY and STUN multipliers only take effect for damage that gets past armor. So even with a placed shot that hits the head, the HW probably will take 0 BODY, but still takethe 16.5 STUN. Like I said though, I'd give a character wearing a plate mail with the faceplate down at least a -1 to his CV, and probably a -2. In which case if the faceplate was up, he just took 11BODY to the head (impairing his head knocking him out automatically).

 

The LW has another option as well....holding his action and waiting for the HW to do something. Let's say the HW swings, and misses....well, the LW doesn't even have to block now (which is why blocks either have to be called before the attacker makes his roll, or abort to it). In some ways, blocking is a bad tactic because the HW already has such a low chance of hitting anyways and since they are equal SPD and the LW has a higher DEX, he'll automatically go first all the time anyways (one of the nice things about blocks is it sets up a character to go first). What I would do as an LW is try to disarm instead. Since the LW will go first, this is probably a better option...although he'll have a lower chance of doing so since his STR is weaker. Another option the LW character has is to abort his next action to "roll with the punch" to lessen damage. More than likely he'll succeed, taking only half damage and probably eliminating being stunned.

 

Now, to inject some more realism....its very hard for someone with a light weapon like a rapier to block or parry someone wielding a much heavier weapon like a bastard sword. Imagine holding out a thin dowel and trying to block someone with a thick wooden rod at full speed....and you'll gt an idea. I've come up with a house rule that takes the difference between the STR min's of each weapon. If a character is trying to block a STR min 13 weapon (Bastard Sword) with a STR min 10 weapon (a rapier), he'll suffer a -3 OCV to block/parry. Disarms are affected by comparing whether you are delivering a coup a main "hit to the hand" or if you are literally trying to knock out the weapon from the opponents hand. However, hits to the hand are about as bad due to the small target (I don't make it a -6 though, since the target is coming to you, I make it a -4). Another option I considered was (STR min + character's STR) compared versus the other character's weapon and STR. This makes it much harder for highly dextrous characters to shrug off weapon blows from large weapons wielded by strong characters (they'll be better off dodging instead of blocking).

 

So is there a "better" fighter? I don't think so. There is one other advantage HW fighters have...armor protects them from all directions and against surprise opponents every phase. In a huge melee battle with characters everywhere, it's possible you might get snuck up on from behind...in such a case it's almost guaranteed to be a hit. LW doesn't have armor, and his high DCV's won't help against attacks from unawares (unless he's got Defensive Manuever), so he'll get hit too. HW gets to factor in his armor...LW has much weaker armor and will probably get taken out. HW may or may not get taken out.

[Mr. Negative]

Originally posted by Dauntless

So is there a "better" fighter? I don't think so. There is one other advantage HW fighters have...armor protects them from all directions and against surprise opponents every phase. In a huge melee battle with characters everywhere, it's possible you might get snuck up on from behind...in such a case it's almost guaranteed to be a hit. LW doesn't have armor, and his high DCV's won't help against attacks from unawares (unless he's got Defensive Manuever), so he'll get hit too. HW gets to factor in his armor...LW has much weaker armor and will probably get taken out. HW may or may not get taken out.

 

But again, this is a conditional advantage, much like other conditional advantages. You can endlessly debate these. For example:

 

The HW's armor doesn't help at all against ALVD and NND attacks, while the LW's better DCV does. The LW might appear to be less of a threat than the HW and may not attract the massive attacks a heavily armored behemoth does. The light warrior doesn't need to worry about his "dangerous appearance" in law-abiding towns and villages, nor about taking a dunk into a river, moat, or lake, while the HW does. In addition, using the monetary costs, the LW could easily afford a missle weapon, and perhaps more tools and gear. I think its a wonderful idea to compare the HW and LW in a "neutral" combat situation, because it really shows that the LW isn't as disadvantaged as you might think, but it's also really important to remember that there's almost never a "neutral" combat situation.

 

 

eepjr24 made the point that the LW will always have to use strategy in this situation, and I think that point is not only good, but key to the whole understanding of LW usage. Light Warriors, almost by their conception, should NEVER voluntarily put themselves in a trading blows situation. The light warrior is inherently a swashbuckler/derring do/showman/showoff character. Even if, statistically, he is capable of wearing down the HW, thematically, he should be humiliating him, tossing sand in his face, tripping him, etc. Even the most murderous and cold Light Warriors out there, like hired killers and assassins, should be ambushing, suprising, and out-maneuvering their foes.

 

I think that the only time a LW doesn't measure up, overall, to a HW, is when someone tries to use them like a D&D character (a poorly played D&D character, I'll add) and just follows an "I attack, you attack, I attack" strategy.

[Dauntless]

Mr. Negative-

I agree entirely. I think what alot of people worry about is the combat efficiency of each kind of character while forgetting all the rest of life outside of combat or even of the different combat environments they'll be fighting in. Like the example you gave about AVLD or NND attacks (which I would assume come from a martial artist of some kind) there can be situations like fighting in mud or slippery terrain where the LW's DEX is negated.

 

So you're right, it all boils down to strategy, and fighting only when you have to fight and on your terms if possible.

 

When people complain about one kind of fighter being better than the other, they look at it from a narrowly defined context. Usually pure combat in perfect fighting conditions. They never think about fighting on a narrow precipice, or fighting knee deep in mudd. They don't think about fighting grand melee battles where your character might be attacked by a flood of arrows (defined as an area attack so DEX doesn't help). They also don't think about what it's like before combat....sitting in your plate mail baking in the mid-day sun. They don't think about having to get up wearing 40lbs when you get knocked down (I think it should take more than a phase). Nor do they count the costs of repairing armor, or walking into town in the fantasy equivalent of being in a tank. For pure combat reasons, I'd say that neither fighter overall over many different combat contexts has an overall advantage. But when you factor in the environmental issues, the costs, and other non-combat related issues, I'd give the nod to the LW fighter who doesn't have to worry about these things.

 

So what's the bottom line? Play the character you want to play....not what combat advantage you think one has. Because when these simulation exercises take place, they are always under ideal conditions without other variables thrown into the mix that real combat would. And personally, if as a GM every fight you have takes place on a nice open, level, dry, grassy field with temperatures in the low 70's....well, I say you should try to be more imaginative about your fights.

[Old Man]

Re: Re: STR and Armor, a brief analysis (LONG POST)

 

Originally posted by Agent X

I don't see conclusive proof that the HW has a huge advantage.

 

That's because your examples are skewed. Using purely average rolls, LW inflicts 0 BODY and 11 STUN on HW per turn; HW inflicts 3 BODY and 11 STUN on LW per turn. This assumes LW hits every phase and HW hits only on phase 12. This has HW standing over LW's corpse by the end of turn 4.

 

And, you're not taking stunning into account. To wit:

 

HW hits LW. ~50% LW is stunned; ~4% LW is outright KO.

LW hits HW. ~10% HW is stunned; ~1% HW is outright KO.

 

HW is more likely to stun LW even if he only hits 1/4 as often. At the absolute minimum that's going to cost LW phases; it could cost him his life.

 

IOW, LW has been boosted by 1 DC and 1 rPD and he's still going to lose.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Herolover

1) Yes, the LW dodges and blocks. So does the Martial artist when he comes up against Grond. So does the speedster, so does the rogue. It is part of being a LW. Just as making strike attacks is part of being a HW.

 

That's actually a failing common to Hero in general. HW/Brick and LW/MA are confronted by a foe. Combat is joined! LW/MA spends his phases dodging and blocking so he can stay alive while HW/Brick wades in and kills the bad guy for him.

 

2) Okay. So the HW has to roll a 5 or less to hit me......ummm. Yep, I will take those odds every single day. At the end of 4 turns You are not doing anything. Turn 5 I have a 15- to hit you...ummm...Yep, I will take those odds any day.

 

Yeah, nothing like giving yourself a permanent +3 DCV for eternal dodge and assuming HW is nice enough to wear himself out for you.

 

If your strategy is based on wearing out your opponent you have to take the fight to him. What are you going to do when HW only swings on 9 and 12 and his REC covers 100% of the END expenditure? 5- to hit is better than the 0- LW gets while he's dancing around.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Dauntless

When I used to spar against small fast guys...for some strange reason, they loved to go toe to toe with me (I'm about 6', 205lbs, and though not a slow lumbering ox, I'm not an agile fox either). Sometimes just to show them how stupid it was to do that, I'd grab ahold of their attacking arm or leg, and take them down, or sometimes just immobilize them so that they couldn't consistently lunge and duck.

 

You hardly have to be bigger than the other guy for this to work. On numerous occasions when sparring I've clinched up, taken down, or run over opponents with ease, even when giving away up to 75 pounds. And I suck. In real life a move-through-grab is incredibly hard to defend against.

 

 

Now there's a strategy the LW can use versus the HW. Aim for the head. If he uses the optional Head Shot (1d6+3 hit location) he has a 33% chance of hitting the head.

 

If he hits at -4 OCV.

 

...the LW will do maximum STUN...so on average he'll do a BODY of 11 (the average roll of 1 1/2d6 = 5.5) and a STUN of 27.5, and a max BODY of 18 (which is about a 5.5% chance of doing) and a STUN of 45. In the average damage scenario, the HW will take 16.5 STUN, more than enough to stun him, and he'll also take 4 BODY.

 

Wrong. STUN is doubled before defenses but BODY is doubled after, so HW takes no BODY (as usual). That's at the very beginning of page 277 for those of you following this from home.

 

In general, though, hit locations and critical hits provide mechanisms for LW to convert his extra OCV into damage, and help to even the score--though not, IMO, enough.

[Victor]

Rapier and Main Gauche might be "typical" weapons for the Light Fighter, but I can think of better ones.

 

Swap either or both for Stillettos... or Small Picks. Maybe one of each for variety's sake. Instead of doing 1d6K, LW is doing 1d6KAP, with his (lower) STR.

 

Now it's not just a matter of leaking STUN through, but LW may get BODY through on 1 out of 3 hits. Since he's got the money to burn, make the stillettos Biting, and he's got a 50-50 chance of drawing blood. HW's going to be taking more STUN now, too.

 

For that matter, LW might be better off with some Fine Small Hammers, too, if he can get them with Stunning Blow.

 

It's not how much damage you do, sometimes, but how you do it.

[eepjr24]

Genre examples?

 

Can anyone point me to some Fantasy Genre examples of a LW going toe to toe with a HW? Not even taking armor into account, necessarily. I think there is still a perception out there that they should be able to. For me, the opposite kind of image comes to mind:

 

In Princess Bride, the classic Man In Black versus Fezzik. The Man in Black dodges almost the entire fight.

 

In Labyrinth, Sir Didymus versus Ludo when they meet in the Swamp. Same deal, dodges the entire fight and is essentially unable to hurt Ludo.

 

Those are the two that come to mind for me, but maybe I am just watching the wrong movies...

 

- Ernie

[Talon]

To me it boils down to:

 

10 STR =

+2d6 damage (6 points)

+2 PD (2 points)

+2 REC (4 points)

+5 STUN (5 points)

+2" Leaping (2 points)

+carrying capacity (priceless )

 

19 points of stuff for 10 points. End of story.

 

It's possible to argue about scenarios until one is blue in the face. There are too many subjective judgements and what-ifs in any realistic example.

 

IMC, STR would cost 1x and wouldn't add to figured stats or Leaping.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

To me it boils down to:

 

10 STR =

+2d6 damage (6 points)

+2 PD (2 points)

+2 REC (4 points)

+5 STUN (5 points)

+2" Leaping (2 points)

+carrying capacity (priceless )

 

19 points of stuff for 10 points. End of story.

 

It's possible to argue about scenarios until one is blue in the face. There are too many subjective judgements and what-ifs in any realistic example.

 

IMC, STR would cost 1x and wouldn't add to figured stats or Leaping.

 

5 Con (10 points) =

5 points of stun (5 points)

10 End (5 points)

1 Rec (2 points)

1 ED (1 point)

Not getting stunned as often (priceless!)

 

13 points of stuff for 10 points! My god, everything needs to be recosted!

 

That said, 10 points into STR is a better buy than 10 points into CON.

[Talon]

Originally posted by OddHat

13 points of stuff for 10 points! My god, everything needs to be recosted!

 

As a matter of fact...

 

A number of stats are way better than what you get and should IMO be repriced. In addition to STR and CON (which I would reprice at 1x but remove figured stats), you've got:

 

DEX: 15 points gets you +5 OCV, +5 DCV, +1.5 SPD, +3 to DEX rolls, and +15 Lightning Reflexes. The CV is hard to price exactly (technically they are 5 point CSLs, but that's stupid), but it all works out to way over 45 points in any event.

 

INT: 5 points get you +1 to Int skills (5 points) and +1 to PER (3 points).

 

PRE: 5 points gets you +1 to PRE skills (5 points) and +1d6 PRE attack (not costed but definitely worth something)

 

COM: strike that and reverse it -- I favor making COM free as you get hardly anything out of it.

 

I had been thinking about writing some sort of article on stat pricing, guess I'll accelerate it.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

As a matter of fact...

 

(Sniped)

 

I had been thinking about writing some sort of article on stat pricing, guess I'll accelerate it.

 

I'm not all that emotionally invested in this issue.

 

That said, I've always liked the GURPS system, where (until recently) all of the base stats had the same cost, and one way or another brought the same in-game benifits from various figured stats. Eventually they went for cheap STR after 15 (Hero equivelant 18) as well, mainly because the Superhero and higher-end Fantasy genre's feature far more very high STR characters than super intelligent /dextrous / whatever characters, and lower costs for STR helped simulate that.

 

Champions / Hero system has always given a batch discount for figured characteristics. In-game, it really isn't all that unballancing; it just means that after a point it makes more sense to say "Jack has a high DEX" than to say "Jack is great at thee following list of 50+ separate abilities, skills and maneuvers, and has paid points for each and every one of them."

 

On the other hand, if you want to charge 2 points for all characteristics (or 3, or 5, or whatever), fair dinkum. THat probably won't be all that unballancing either.

[Dauntless]

eepjr24-

Watch Rob Roy at the very end of the movie to watch Liam Neeson's character armed with a Claymore fighting Tim Roth's character armed with a long sword (a real long sword that's incredibly thin...almost rapier like). The interesting thing is seeing what Rob Roy has to do in that fight to win (ouch). Then again, it's not as painful as what he does to Tim Roth's character (ouch).

 

In a sort of reverse situation, in the "battle" between Magua and Hawkeye's father in Last of the Mohicans, the much larger father totally destroys Magua with some pretty adroit fighting (all the more so for being an old coot).

 

For a fight in armor, check out the fight scene between King Arthur and Lancelot in Excalibur. Note especially how Lancelot tears up Arthur's armor. Another example of bashed in armor is earlier in the movie, when King Uther Pendragon gets ambushed by the survivors of Cornwallis's men. And another good scene is watching Gawaine and Lancelot duke it out. This movie is probably the best movie to watch to see armored combatants fight.