Always on for size and/or density altering powers

[Fitzerific]

Hey, I'm at work so I cannot look this rule up, however what's the rule on putting always on onto powers such as growth, shrinking, and Density increase to simulate someone who is a nonstandard size or realative density? I think I remember reading somewhere that a distinctive feature should be used instead, however I prefer to use the actual powers in order to gain the effective benefit (or resonable penalty) for being half as tall or twice as tall etc, and using the distinctive features to show that being a different size will generally make the individual more memorable and recognizable. Is there an official rule on this?

[薔薇語]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

The official way of doing this is by buying the assiciated characteristics, skills, talents, and powers that come with alter size and density then buying distinctive features, and physical limitations that reflect the issue.

 

IE

Instead of buying Growth always on. I would buy:

Icreased str, and possibly increased PD/ED, Stun, and depending on how much larger, Stretching (to simulate reach). Then I would also take Distinctive features -10" tall or something along that line. And if he was significanly larger I would day Physical Limitation -Cannot fit in most buildings, must crouch/crawl in human dwellings.

 

That is the generally accepted and official way of doing it. Although there are benifits to your way, but it isn't strickly game legal, but again the rules are more guidelines than laws.

 

La Rose

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

The official way of doing this is by buying the assiciated characteristics, skills, talents, and powers that come with alter size and density then buying distinctive features, and physical limitations that reflect the issue.

 

IE

Instead of buying Growth always on. I would buy:

Icreased str, and possibly increased PD/ED, Stun, and depending on how much larger, Stretching (to simulate reach). Then I would also take Distinctive features -10" tall or something along that line. And if he was significanly larger I would day Physical Limitation -Cannot fit in most buildings, must crouch/crawl in human dwellings.

 

That is the generally accepted and official way of doing it. Although there are benifits to your way, but it isn't strickly game legal, but again the rules are more guidelines than laws.

 

La Rose

 

That is the official way, though I personally find using Persistent, Inherent, Always On to be cleaner and easier.

[薔薇語]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

That is the official way' date=' though I personally find using Persistent, Inherent, Always On to be cleaner and easier.[/quote']

 

I like to do both myself. Ie buy the power then also take the limitations. Although I reduce the value of the limitations since it is to some degree already included in the power build.

 

I find using both makes it clear and justifiable. But that is me, I would check with GM as to which of the three options here is the bes in his/her game.

 

La Rose

[CTaylor]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

what's the rule on putting always on onto powers such as growth, shrinking, and Density increase

 

The book discourages it, although it's sort of the obvious way to do the job, particularly with inherent. I still use it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

I like the new way. It let's my buy the parts I feel should be added, in the ratios and levels I feel are appropriate so not all my "Giant" characters are exactly the same.

[Fitzerific]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

I'm considering adding a size characteristic to the campaign that I GM, and modify growth and shrinking powers to have starting values at the size level that the character has naturally. I have to learn how to create templates and such in hero designer first though.

[Starlight]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

In the case of Growth and Density Increase both of these effects can be represented satisfactorily by buying suitable powers and then taking disadvantages. That approach also allows a more flexible result. On the other hand I'm perfectly willing as a GM to allow Always On for Growth and Density Increase if that gives a player the required result. That's simply 'cleaner' on the character sheet than a number of separate powers and disadvantages in my opinion.

 

Shrinking is a different proposition. As well as the other mechanical effects of shrinking that can be represented by buying powers, there is one aspect that does not lend itself to being so represented in a clean and intuitive matter. I refer of course to the reduction in size of a character, which allows that character to enter and pass through apertures and confined spaces which a normal sized character cannot. This is a potentially very useful ability and, in line with the HERO philosophy, should have a points cost associated with it. Giving it away free as part of a 'Reduced Size' disadvantage does not work for me.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

I'm considering adding a size characteristic to the campaign that I GM' date=' and modify growth and shrinking powers to have starting values at the size level that the character has naturally. I have to learn how to create templates and such in hero designer first though.[/quote']

 

Well, if you have Fifth Edition, Revised or the HERO System Bestiary, both of those books provide a number of detailed size Package Deals for characters who are naturally larger or smaller than human norm, with appropriate Characteristics, Powers and Disadvantages already calculated. I can't say for certain at the moment, but I believe that templates for those packages are included with Hero Designer.

 

As a GM I allow both the current official "piecemeal" approach to different sizes, which lets you customize your character's abilities to your satisfaction; and the Always On Powers approach, which is simpler provided you're willing to take the whole package of abilities and drawbacks included.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

Shrinking is a different proposition. As well as the other mechanical effects of shrinking that can be represented by buying powers' date=' there is one aspect that does not lend itself to being so represented in a clean and intuitive matter. I refer of course to the reduction in size of a character, which allows that character to enter and pass through apertures and confined spaces which a normal sized character cannot. This is a potentially very useful ability and, in line with the HERO philosophy, should have a points cost associated with it. Giving it away free as part of a 'Reduced Size' disadvantage does not work for me.[/quote']

 

I can respect that, but OTOH there are several potential drawbacks to being smaller than human norm: inability to reach things high up, difficulty carrying large bulky objects, trouble finding clothing, armor, and the like that fits, and so on. Perhaps the benefits and drawbacks add up to a net -0 Limitation, but then again, it's to a great extent up to the situations the GM puts a character into as to whether his size, or any other unusual feature, will be more benefit or liability. My philosophy as GM is that if I agree to allow a Disadvantage onto a character sheet, it's my job to make it appropriately disadvantageous to the character.

[CTaylor]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

I agree that shrinking does not represent well as a disad, it is too useful in too many ways to just handwave in that fashion.

 

Yet the Shrinking power is poorly built because of the absurd benefits. +2 DCV for being half size? I know that's what the scaling rules work like, but it simply does not add up in real life. An ordinary housefly would be completely impossible to hit for a normal person (DCV 17???) and that simply is not true. My nephew at 3 feet tall is not 5 DCV. Half the benefits and drawbacks, half the cost, and you have a reasonable power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

Shrinking is a different proposition. As well as the other mechanical effects of shrinking that can be represented by buying powers' date=' there is one aspect that does not lend itself to being so represented in a clean and intuitive matter. I refer of course to the reduction in size of a character, which allows that character to enter and pass through apertures and confined spaces which a normal sized character cannot. This is a potentially very useful ability and, in line with the HERO philosophy, should have a points cost associated with it. Giving it away free as part of a 'Reduced Size' disadvantage does not work for me.[/quote']

 

I can respect that' date=' but OTOH there are several potential drawbacks to being smaller than human norm: inability to reach things high up, difficulty carrying large bulky objects, trouble finding clothing, armor, and the like that fits, and so on. Perhaps the benefits and drawbacks add up to a net -0 Limitation, but then again, it's to a great extent up to the situations the GM puts a character into as to whether his size, or any other unusual feature, will be more benefit or liability. My philosophy as GM is that if I agree to allow a Disadvantage onto a character sheet, it's my job to make it appropriately disadvantageous to the character.[/quote']

 

I'm closer to Lord Liaden's POV on this.

 

Small and Large are SFX of a Character's Size.

 

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

 

If you're very small all the time, you get to pass through holes larger characters cannot. On the other hand, as LL points out - it comes along with a a whole host of other issues, and some of them may be social issues.

 

I don't see you getting a benefit you don't pay for any more than I see a Fire based Character being able to light a fire place without having to pay for it being unbalanced.

[Starlight]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

I can agree, calling small size a 0pt disadvantage is a reasonable solution. I was was looking at the size templates on p575 of 5ER when making my point. The disadvantages in the templates give points for the handicaps mentioned, so in essence the benefits of a small size are given away for free when using the disadvantages from those templates.

[Starlight]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

Regarding the main point of the thread, Always On for body/size effecting powers such as Growth, Density Increase, and Shrinking. I do have a problem with the Always On limitation being discouraged for these powers. It's that I cannot see any reason why shrinking or growing, for example, should have different effects if done as a temporary change than if a permanent change. There's a power called Growth. It makes a character bigger. So if the character is bigger all the time why shouldn't you buy Growth with Always On? Having to build the exact same result using two different mechanisms - either simply Growth for temporary change or a number of powers and a disadvantage for a permanent change - strikes me as somewhat lacking in logic. This is an entirely different question than whether the game effects of Growth are sensible or not. I allow Always On for these powers in my house rules. I'd rather it was considered acceptable in RAW.

[Kdansky]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

I would always go for the new way. Mainly because DI (and even more so Growth) are horrible point-value, compared to raw Strength (but then, I blame figureds...). And last: -4 DCV is a bit of a game balance problem, since you are basically at half DCV nonstop... Nothing will miss you ever. Ouch. So just don't take that.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

I would always go for the new way. Mainly because DI (and even more so Growth) are horrible point-value' date=' compared to raw Strength (but then, I blame figureds...). And last: -4 DCV is a bit of a game balance problem, since you are basically at half DCV nonstop... Nothing will miss you ever. Ouch. So just don't take that.[/quote']

 

Or just be tough enough to be able to take it.

[Kdansky]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

Or just be tough enough to be able to take it.

 

Yes, but the 5 points of PD you get from Growth alone is not quite enough for that. And if I have to pay 20 points to get enough armor (or +4 DCV persistant etc) to make that difference, I don't quite see why the -4 DCV I am compensating should not be worth 20 points of disadvantages. I like the "tough enough to take it" approach, but it should not be more expensive than the normal DCV for doing the same.

[Kenn]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

So far, I've found the piecemeal approach to be cheaper than the intuitive approach.

 

But then again, the fact that the book says "you shouldn't use the intuitive approach" has seemed, since 5e came out, very bizarre and kludgy. I mean, 5e introduced the "inherent" advantage, but then the main group of powers that were often built with 0 End, Persistent, and Always On that could really use the inherent advantage, we're told not to use.

 

That made no sense.

[Tonio]

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers

 

I'm closer to Lord Liaden's POV on this.

 

Small and Large are SFX of a Character's Size.

 

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

 

If you're very small all the time, you get to pass through holes larger characters cannot. On the other hand, as LL points out - it comes along with a a whole host of other issues, and some of them may be social issues.

 

I don't see you getting a benefit you don't pay for any more than I see a Fire based Character being able to light a fire place without having to pay for it being unbalanced.

 

Problem with this is with growth, you're paying for the benefits. With Shrinking, you're getting them "free" with the Disadvantage. With growth, you pay for reach and get a Disadvantage for being too big to fit in some places. With shrinking, you get a Disadvantage for lack of reach, but get to fit in more places for free.