Area Effect TK

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Why not? Whole Object doesn't dictate what angle the stick is whacked against the wall - which is as much a factor of breakage as simple force.

 

You throw it at one vector, an intersecting object affects that vector enacting a force that's not you on it.

But then why can't gravity affect the rope or the chain?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Just use common sense. srsly.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Look - in all seriousness here:

 

Affects Whole Object means the TK pulls every aspect in the same direction. If the object sits at an angle, or bends, it continues to move at that angle, or bends appropriately.

 

In order for a trigger to be pulled you're pulling against something - namely you're pulling one part of the gun backwards while the rest of the gun does not move.

 

If you affect the Whole Object of the gun you have to pull all parts in the same direction, at the same velocity/time. You can't pull one part faster or differently from another.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

That's my point: if you pull the trigger of a gun backward while the gun is braced against something, or clamped in a vise, then you can pull the trigger and fire the gun, even though you have "Affects Whole Object".

 

This is what I've been saying. "Affects Whole Object" means that the TK itself can only affect the object in one way. It doesn't mean that other forces cannot affect the object in other ways. That's why I say that a delicate object held by one end can break under its own weight, and a rope or chain held by one end can dangle, and a gun in a vise can be fired, and a stick can be broken by pressing it against a wall.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Depends on if the GM (w/ group consensus or however you decide to work it) believes the trigger to be a separate enough object from the gun to grab that way.

[jtelson]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I still reckon you cannot justify your position with an in-hgame example: what sfx are you going to be applying to an AoE TK that justifies you being able to pick up several tons in weight of small objects' date=' but only a few hundred KG of large objects?[/quote']

 

I adjust gravity in an area causing things to hover (AOE, Whole Objects only)anything with a mass < X Floats anything w/ a mass >= X is lighter.

 

There's no exertion to lift an object because I'm using my brain baby thus anything I can focus on that's < X mass I can lift (AOE cone selective)

 

How many do you want.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Affects whole object, looking at the rules, simply means that you cannot squeeze or punch an object but can use it to grab. How that manifests is up to the GM and player to thrash out.

 

You might, for instance, define your TK as a gravity manipulation field, which can cause things to float around and which enables you to fling them BUT doesn't allow fine enough 'placing' to affect different parts of the same object.

 

If you pick up a rope it might move as a whole object, not dangle from a point.

 

OTOH you might define it as a small force field you can slip under an object and use it to lift. If you picked up a rope with this, then the rope would dangle from the point you pick it up from.

 

Crude examples, I know, but the point is that the limitation 'affects whole object' simply tell you what the mechanical effects are, not how it looks in-game. That is sfx. The problem arises because the limtiation is labelled as a skx rather than as a mechanical effect, probably to make it sound more interesting, but it IS a mechanical effect, not an sfx.

 

Now whether you can pull a trigger with a TK that 'affects whole object' is a matter for the player and GM. I can certainly see some sfx allowing a trigger to be grabbed and, if the rest of the object is already braced, pulled - the tiny force field may allow this, whereas the gravity shift wouldn't. OTOH the gravity shift would probably be better at picking up delicate objects without causing damage, for example - there are minor effects that I would consider under sfx.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I adjust gravity in an area causing things to hover (AOE, Whole Objects only)anything with a mass < X Floats anything w/ a mass >= X is lighter.

 

There's no exertion to lift an object because I'm using my brain baby thus anything I can focus on that's < X mass I can lift (AOE cone selective)

 

How many do you want.

 

Interesting but, with respect, hokum. If you change the direction of gravity, then anything with mass will be affected as if falling in the new direction, regardless of mass (well, not regardless - the mass will determine the acceleration but a larger mass will have a larger force acting on it, which is why objects of different mass fall at the same speed in a constant gravity field). Simply removing gravity does not change the mass of objects, but means that any force (that can overcome air friction) will move the object, the only variable being how quickly they accelerate.

 

If you have a 10 ton one hex object, or 100x100kg objects in the same area, the effect will be the same - it does not explain how you can lift the small objects but not the big one.

[jtelson]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Interesting but, with respect, hokum. If you change the direction of gravity, then anything with mass will be affected as if falling in the new direction, regardless of mass (well, not regardless - the mass will determine the acceleration but a larger mass will have a larger force acting on it, which is why objects of different mass fall at the same speed in a constant gravity field). Simply removing gravity does not change the mass of objects, but means that any force (that can overcome air friction) will move the object, the only variable being how quickly they accelerate.

 

If you have a 10 ton one hex object, or 100x100kg objects in the same area, the effect will be the same - it does not explain how you can lift the small objects but not the big one.

 

You want a better than comic science explainations? OK

 

All you need is any effect that produces an upward/opposing force (X) uniformly over a given area. However you choose to describe that force it will lift everything with a mass < X while not lifting anything with a mass >= X.

The force can be anything you want (Gravitic, Magnetic, Diamagnetic, Electrostatic, maybe Casimir, Quantum, Metaphysical, Magical, Laputian, whatever) but it will lift 100, 1000, 1000000 Xkg objects but 0 X+1kg objects.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

You want a better than comic science explainations? OK

 

All you need is any effect that produces an upward/opposing force (X) uniformly over a given area. However you choose to describe that force it will lift everything with a mass < X while not lifting anything with a mass >= X.

The force can be anything you want (Gravitic, Magnetic, Diamagnetic, Electrostatic, maybe Casimir, Quantum, Metaphysical, Magical, Laputian, whatever) but it will lift 100, 1000, 1000000 Xkg objects but 0 X+1kg objects.

 

That is not going to work on dense objects though: an osmium ball bearing will have a small area and a comparatively high mass, whereas a flat square panel of wood or plastic would have a large area to mass, and therefore the force would lift it, even if it is much heavier than the ball bearings - which is exactly the opposite effect we are describing here.

 

What you need is a set force/object, not per area, that is independent of object density and that is very difficult to explain.

 

I do appreciate the pointlessness of arguing how TK works, but I have this need to have some sort of consistent explanation as it makes rules/sfx disputes so much easier to resolve.

[jtelson]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

That is not going to work on dense objects though: an osmium ball bearing will have a small area and a comparatively high mass, whereas a flat square panel of wood or plastic would have a large area to mass, and therefore the force would lift it, even if it is much heavier than the ball bearings - which is exactly the opposite effect we are describing here.

 

What you need is a set force/object, not per area, that is independent of object density and that is very difficult to explain.

 

I do appreciate the pointlessness of arguing how TK works, but I have this need to have some sort of consistent explanation as it makes rules/sfx disputes so much easier to resolve.

 

 

The Volume/Area of the object(s) may or may not be relevant depending on the effect. So Electrostatic might be affected by surface area but Gravitc isn't going to care how big the object just its mass. Others are completely up in the air, but I would tend to think that Casimir, Quantum, and Magical would be about applied power across the field so mass based but only affecting objects contained entirely within the applied field, Metaphysical would be object based but hard to justify mass or area having any effect, and I just threw Laputian in for fun.

 

From the consistant explanation POV, why wouldn't the AoE advantage effect the entirety of the power, sure I can punch everyone in an area with X force but for anything else I can only do X/area or X/objects force; that's inconsistant. Perhaps there should be a limitation that can applied to AoE TK along the lines of reduced penetration if you want an X/something effect.