Area Effect TK

[Tech]

For arguments sake, assuming a 20 Str TK with Area Effect of 2", how much weight can be lifted?

 

1) Up to 20 Str in any one hex (400 kg), regardless of how big the radius.

2) Add up all the hexes and that's the total weight a single object weighing can be picked up since the other hexes can help carry the object, like many people can carry more weight for 1 object than one person can.

ex. It's 18 hexes total for 2" radius, including center hex. So, we have 18x400 kg = 7200kg

3) as above but the total weight is 7200kg with a maximum effect of 400 kg for any 1 hex.

4) something else

 

I am curious to see what other people think. I already have my ruling on this.

[Tonio]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Officially, it's 400kg total, and you can pick up 2" radius worth of objects. That is, you can lift a 400kg statue that occupies 1 hex, or four 100kg people packed into a 2" radius circle, but not two 400kg statues, each occupying 1 hex, in contiguous hexes.

 

I don't like that rule, though. I'd probably allow 400kg per hex. In the case of large objects, I'd determine the weight per hex, and allow lifting it if that weight is 400kg or less.

 

Then again, I haven't playtested that... it could end up being horribly overpowered, hehe!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Officially, it's 400kg total, and you can pick up 2" radius worth of objects. That is, you can lift a 400kg statue that occupies 1 hex, or four 100kg people packed into a 2" radius circle, but not two 400kg statues, each occupying 1 hex, in contiguous hexes.

 

I don't like that rule, though. I'd probably allow 400kg per hex. In the case of large objects, I'd determine the weight per hex, and allow lifting it if that weight is 400kg or less.

 

Then again, I haven't playtested that... it could end up being horribly overpowered, hehe!

 

It's not horribly overpowered - but it does effectively allow you to buy 7 instances of 20STR TK. Remember: 2" Radius is not "two hexes" it's a 2" Radius Circle, or simply a center Hex the six immediately around it.

 

It gets even more overpowered with larger Areas, quickly moving into "horribly overpowered"

 

I would quickly disallow your suggested method.

[schir1964]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

For arguments sake, assuming a 20 Str TK with Area Effect of 2", how much weight can be lifted?

 

1) Up to 20 Str in any one hex (400 kg), regardless of how big the radius.

2) Add up all the hexes and that's the total weight a single object weighing can be picked up since the other hexes can help carry the object, like many people can carry more weight for 1 object than one person can.

ex. It's 18 hexes total for 2" radius, including center hex. So, we have 18x400 kg = 7200kg

3) as above but the total weight is 7200kg with a maximum effect of 400 kg for any 1 hex.

4) something else

 

I am curious to see what other people think. I already have my ruling on this.

I asked this same question 12 Years ago. (8^D)

 

This is one of those rules exceptions that creates an inconsistency in application of the rules by default.

 

A consistent application means that you could lift as many objects with your TK as could fit in the Radius of the Area Effect. Obviously this could lead to some horrible abuses, so I guess they decided to make an arbitrary restriction to help prevent this.

 

I would have preferred a consistent application as the default with several official GM Options to restrict how any area effect attack can be restricted. But there you go.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Tonio]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

It's not horribly overpowered - but it does effectively allow you to buy 7 instances of 20STR TK. Remember: 2" Radius is not "two hexes" it's a 2" Radius Circle, or simply a center Hex the six immediately around it.

 

It gets even more overpowered with larger Areas, quickly moving into "horribly overpowered"

 

I would quickly disallow your suggested method.

 

Worse even... 2" radius is the area described by a center hex and all hexes not more than 2" away, so it's really 19 total hexes.

 

On the other hand, while it's really like that many instances of 20STR TK, they all have to be used for the same purpose, in the same way. That is, while you will be able to lift a lot more, total, you can't manipulate individual objects separately. Just like buying AE for your EB; it's not the same as being able to fire an EB into every target in the area, because that would mean you could spread as desired for each target, you could decide whether to target certain targets or not (you can do this with selective, though), you could choose to use less dice for certain targets, etc.

 

As to being able to lift larger objects easier... isn't it the same thing for damage powers vs. large objects? You'd reduce a building to rubble faster with an 8d6 AE EB than with a straight 8d6 EB, and probably faster than with a 16d6 EB, too.

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Worse even... 2" radius is the area described by a center hex and all hexes not more than 2" away, so it's really 19 total hexes.

 

Not accurate. A 1" radius is a single hex. A 2" radius is the central hex plus all of the hexes adjacent to it. A 3" radius is what you describe. Check out 5ER p248.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Officially, it's 400kg total, and you can pick up 2" radius worth of objects. That is, you can lift a 400kg statue that occupies 1 hex, or four 100kg people packed into a 2" radius circle, but not two 400kg statues, each occupying 1 hex, in contiguous hexes.

 

I don't like that rule, though. I'd probably allow 400kg per hex. In the case of large objects, I'd determine the weight per hex, and allow lifting it if that weight is 400kg or less.

 

Then again, I haven't playtested that... it could end up being horribly overpowered, hehe!

 

 

We've played that way for 20+ years and not had any problems. Wouldn't even bother with some builds ( like Graviton, Magneto types) with the official ruling. On the other hand, I don't have a very abusive group.

 

To me thats like saying you have to divede the 10d6 of your area energy blast among the people in its radius so 5 guys would only take 2d6 each.

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

We've played that way for 20+ years and not had any problems. Wouldn't even bother with some builds ( like Graviton, Magneto types) with the official ruling. On the other hand, I don't have a very abusive group.

 

To me thats like saying you have to divede the 10d6 of your area energy blast among the people in its radius so 5 guys would only take 2d6 each.

 

Well, the official ruling is somewhat split between the two. AoE TK can be used to punch/grab all of the targets within the AoE at full strength. It just doesn't let you use AoE as a multiplier on how much weight you can lift.

[Maur]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

four 100kg people packed into a 2" radius circle

 

I wouldn't consider 4 people in a 2" circle to be "packed". That is 7 hexes each 2 meters across for them to be in which means each person has more than enough room to lay down stretched out without bumping into another person, heheh.

[CTaylor]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

My rule is that you can pick up any number of items weighing each no more than the TK's maximum strength which can fit in that area.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

My rule is that you can pick up any number of items weighing each no more than the TK's maximum strength which can fit in that area.

 

Which would be what Tonio's proposed idea is.

 

I've seen that become quickly, and in some cases massively, overpowered.

 

How's it held up in your games?

[Tonio]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Not accurate. A 1" radius is a single hex. A 2" radius is the central hex plus all of the hexes adjacent to it. A 3" radius is what you describe. Check out 5ER p248.

 

Meh! You're right, of course. It's just wrong!

 

I wouldn't consider 4 people in a 2" circle to be "packed". That is 7 hexes each 2 meters across for them to be in which means each person has more than enough room to lay down stretched out without bumping into another person' date=' heheh.[/quote']

 

I didn't mean "packed" as in "tightly packed", though... just meant they were in the area.

[Comic]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I allow a disadvantage that gives a maximum STR/Hex. So if you had 140 STR Tk and 2" Radius, you could apply all 140 STR against any target that filled 7 concentric hexes, or 20 STR per hex for as many adjacent hexes as the object fills that fit within a 2" radius, or a maximum of 20 STR for any object less than a hex, but up to 2" radius of such objects at a time.

 

Sure, 140 STR Tk's a bit pricy, but for a -2 Limitation, I believe you get a fair deal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

AoE TK gets expensive quickly.

 

Let us look at this. 20 STR Radius AoE TK costs 60 points. 60 points of TK (without AoE) allows you to lift with 40 STR.

 

So, 20 STR = 400kg, 40 STR = 6400kg, or 16 times as much. (7 hexes, and at STR/hex = 2800kg)

 

If you boost the strength to 30 for the AoE, then that is point equivalent to a 60 STR TK without AoE.

 

So, 30 STR = 1600kg, 60 STR = 100 tons, or 64 times as much. (19 hexes and at STR/HEX = just over 30 tons)

 

So, the effect of AoE is to really shade the effectiveness of TK - the more you buy the better off you would generally have been with the un-advantaged power. If you allow STR/hex then that re-dresses the balance somewhat, but it is still generally better to have a 'straight' TK (of coure if you start using increased radius, or megascale, the whole thing looks very shaky).

 

In fact, except for some pretty limtied uses, AoE TK is simply not worth the points. It is not a particularly effective combat tool, and, whilst it is good for rescuing crowds, you need straight TK to lift that flipped tank...

 

One possible solution is to use the Hero '+5=double' rule with AoE TK: for +5 points you can pick up double the number of objects at your max strength (but you cannot combine those uses of STR to pick up a single object). That would make picking up quite a bit with AoE TK practical cost-wise, without allowing it to overshadow 'straight' TK, which will still be generally more useful in combat.

 

So, a 20 STR TK AoE can pick up 400kg of objects in a 7 hex area for 60 points, whereas for 70 points (2x+5 points) you can pick up 4 x 400kg of objects in a 7 hex area, so long as no individual object weighs more than 400kg.

[Tech]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Not accurate. A 1" radius is a single hex. A 2" radius is the central hex plus all of the hexes adjacent to it. A 3" radius is what you describe. Check out 5ER p248.

 

With respect to the 5ER, that logically sounds wrong. There is no way I'm paying a +1 advantage to hit a single hex (AE radius 1") by that line of reasoning when I can get the same effect by buying a +1/2 advantage of 1 hex AE. The two should be different yet end up being the same. It sounds like logic was thrown out for 'game balance'. What I see having happened is that the game authors realized the same thing and so came up with the 1 Hex AE +1/2 advantage realizing the majority of players (if any) aren't going to pay the +1 advantage for 1 hex. This sounds like a Microsoft fix.

 

What I curiously wonder is why pay the +1/2 advantage? Energy Blast can lose 1d6 and create a 1 hex effect for free. Okay, my 10d6 is only 9d6 now but I get a free +1/2 advantage... sweet!

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

With respect to the 5ER, that logically sounds wrong. There is no way I'm paying a +1 advantage to hit a single hex (AE radius 1") by that line of reasoning when I can get the same effect by buying a +1/2 advantage of 1 hex AE. The two should be different yet end up being the same. It sounds like logic was thrown out for 'game balance'. What I see having happened is that the game authors realized the same thing and so came up with the 1 Hex AE +1/2 advantage realizing the majority of players (if any) aren't going to pay the +1 advantage for 1 hex. This sounds like a Microsoft fix.

 

What I curiously wonder is why pay the +1/2 advantage? Energy Blast can lose 1d6 and create a 1 hex effect for free. Okay, my 10d6 is only 9d6 now but I get a free +1/2 advantage... sweet!

 

The 1 hex AoE is to allow attacks, regardless of size, to fill one and only one hex. Yes, if you are applying AoE Radius to a Power that is so few active points that it would only get a 1" radius, you would be better off buying 1 hex AoE instead. Though as a drawback if you pushed the power or it got Aided or somesuch, the AoE Radius power would get larger, while the AoE 1 Hex power wouldn't.

 

And note that spreading an attack to fill a hex doesn't do the same thing that AoE does. You don't roll to hit the hex, you have to roll to hit each target in the area you are filling. It gives you the ability to hit multiple opponents, but you actually have to hit each of them.

[Tech]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

The 1 hex AoE is to allow attacks' date=' regardless of size, to fill one and only one hex. Yes, if you are applying AoE Radius to a Power that is so few active points that it would only get a 1" radius, you would be better off buying 1 hex AoE instead. Though as a drawback if you pushed the power or it got Aided or somesuch, the AoE Radius power would get larger, while the AoE 1 Hex power wouldn't.[/quote']

 

Although I didn't specificially mention it, I was showing that there seems to be a problem with AE. The 'AE 1 hex' advantage appears to have been made to fix the problem with AE only giving 1", yet is in effect AE but with a cost break.

 

And note that spreading an attack to fill a hex doesn't do the same thing that AoE does. You don't roll to hit the hex, you have to roll to hit each target in the area you are filling. It gives you the ability to hit multiple opponents, but you actually have to hit each of them.

 

True, true but I don't have to spend a +1/2 or +1 advantage either.

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Although I didn't specificially mention it' date=' I was showing that there seems to be a problem with AE. The 'AE 1 hex' advantage appears to have been made to fix the problem with AE only giving 1", yet [i']is[/i] in effect AE but with a cost break.

 

AoE 1 hex wasn't introduced to "fix" anything. It was introduced to give people the option to have a single hex area on powers that would normally get a considerably larger area. In fact you cannot use AoE 1 Hex on a power that would get just a 1" radius from AoE Radius. So it can only be used on Powers that would normally get a larger area.

 

True' date=' true but I don't have to spend a +1/2 or +1 advantage either. [/quote']

 

Makes sense. You don't get the effects of AoE, so you don't have to pay for it either.

[Tonio]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

In fact you cannot use AoE 1 Hex on a power that would get just a 1" radius from AoE Radius. So it can only be used on Powers that would normally get a larger area.

 

As I read it, what you cannot do is use the +3/4 "One Hex Doubled (2")" option if you'd get the same area as Area Effect (Radius). I'll ask Steve.

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

As I read it' date=' what you cannot do is use the +3/4 "One Hex Doubled (2")" option if you'd get the same area as Area Effect (Radius). I'll ask Steve.[/quote']

 

That certainly seems to be the way it is coded in HD. Seems to make more sense to me that you couldn't use either if it is just a cheaper way to get the normal radius you would get from AoE Radius. *shrug*

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

That certainly seems to be the way it is coded in HD. Seems to make more sense to me that you couldn't use either if it is just a cheaper way to get the normal radius you would get from AoE Radius. *shrug*

 

 

But AoE 1 hex is not the same as AoE 1" Radius.

The former affects exactly 1 hex.

The latter affects 6 hexes.

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

But AoE 1 hex is not the same as AoE 1" Radius.

The former affects exactly 1 hex.

The latter affects 6 hexes.

 

No, it doesn't.

 

A 1" radius thus has a 1 hex "footprint", a 2" radius has a 7-hex footprint, a 3" radius has a 19-hex footprint, and so on.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I was going off of a false memory.

 

The terminology is flawed though.

[1" Radius] suggests a circle of radius 1" and therefore a minimum diameter of 2".

 

Something else to consider changing in 6th perhaps.

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I was going off of a false memory.

 

The terminology is flawed though.

[1" Radius] suggests a circle of radius 1" and therefore a minimum diameter of 2".

 

Something else to consider changing in 6th perhaps.

 

The terminology isn't so much flawed as the application of it to a hex map is. Unfortunately it is hard to approximate a circle with an even diameter on a hex map. So our easy choices are a 1" diameter 'circle' or a 3" diameter one when given a 1" radius. Early on with HERO the decision was made to go with the lower number. So a 1" radius is a 1" 'circle'. A 2" radius is a 3" 'circle'. They could easily have gone the other, just as inaccurate, way. At which point we'd have a 1" radius giving us a 3" 'circle', and a 2" radius giving us a 5" 'circle'. Rather than giving AoE powers an extra inch of diameter, they decided to make them smaller by one inch. I suppose it all the existing AoE measurements could be changed to be 1/2" smaller than they are. But that sounds needlessly complex to me.

 

And as a note a 1" radius doesn't suggest a circle with a minimum diameter of 2". It describes a circle with an exact diameter of 2". Or to put it differently, both a minimum and a maximum diameter of 2".

[CTaylor]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

How's it held up in your games?

 

I've not seen anyone use it beyond the 1 hex area so I couldn't say how well balanced it is. It just makes sense based on the way all powers work in Area Effects. A pile of dirt = 1 object, a pool of water = 1 object, etc.

 

And as a note a 1" radius doesn't suggest a circle with a minimum diameter of 2". It describes a circle with an exact diameter of 2".

 

and note: a 1" radius area effect actually has a diameter of 3" because you get the center hex free.